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Surviving an Affair Jump to new posts
Re: Happening again jah 03/25/24 06:25 PM
I thought it was very helpful; I listened to the segment 5-6x to let it soak in.

Some of it was educational to other readers; it talked about how the spouse that is cheated on has the right to divorce. About what plan A and B is about, and how plan A while exposing could work as a strategy. And a summary of my situation.

He of course did not recommend the 'mass flyer exposure' that I wanted to do. But he said that there are strategies to compete with the OM, but mass exposure is not one that is recommended. So I was wondering exactly what are other strategies to 'compete with the OM'. Or it is the basic things like: targeted exposure, meet wife's emotional needs, maintain health, etc.

He doesn't describe my wife specifically as a serial cheater, but as someone who falls in love too easily. My thought is that she has a very low love bank threshold in which she crosses into falling in love. He says that you can put barriers into place to deter it, but ultimately it's the spouse who needs to realize their weakness (to fall in love easily) and to avoid it. There's no 'plan' to perfectly prevent it. So to answer the question on if my marriage is worth saving, it's more of an, "It can be worth saving, but there's no perfect plan to guarantee ANOTHER affair might happen."
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Re: Happening again BrainHurts 03/25/24 02:54 PM
What did you think of what Dr. Harley said? Have you had anymore contact with Dr. Harley on your situation?
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Surviving an Affair Jump to new posts
Re: Happening again jah 03/23/24 02:50 PM
Yes, thank you BlackHawk (and everyone else). I am going to listen to it now and let you know what I think. I'm at least happy that it sounds like my situation is viable and that with the proper boundaries my marriage might be worth saving.

Just to add another new development; I went ahead and sent the updated exposure letter to the OM parents. I sent it by UPS, by regular mail, and went to the OM house in person to tape it to the gate (I didn't want to take any chances that the OM might confiscate the letters before the parents got them).

At the house, to my surprise not only are the OM and his parents on vacation to Japan, but house sitting was the OM sister in law, married to the OM younger brother, who is in the marines. I was also the pediatrician to their kids. I explained the situation. and why I was there. I didn't have time to properly explain everything though (she was in a rush), and so I'm going to get a new exposure letter for them specifically. A younger brother (esp marines) would be a great asset.
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Re: Happening again BrainHurts 03/23/24 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Blackhawk
jah, your situation was discussed on the MB radio program on the Friday show on March 22, between minutes 24-39 of the hour show. The show will remain to play until the next show next week.

On the show, Dr. Harley discussed your plan A strategy as viable and also discussed plan B as viable, and emphasized they are separate strategies and not to mix them. He also discussed your public flyer idea and found this not a good idea.

He also discussed how your wife has poor boundaries around her love bank to other men and it is easy for her to fall in love. He said she has to really get onboard for this to work and she has to want to strengthen her boundaries around men.

Please listen and let us know what you think and if Dr. Harley gave you other advice not on the show.

Thank you Blackhawk! I appreciate this.
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Surviving an Affair Jump to new posts
Re: Happening again Blackhawk 03/23/24 07:27 AM
jah, your situation was discussed on the MB radio program on the Friday show on March 22, between minutes 24-39 of the hour show. The show will remain to play until the next show next week.

On the show, Dr. Harley discussed your plan A strategy as viable and also discussed plan B as viable, and emphasized they are separate strategies and not to mix them. He also discussed your public flyer idea and found this not a good idea.

He also discussed how your wife has poor boundaries around her love bank to other men and it is easy for her to fall in love. He said she has to really get onboard for this to work and she has to want to strengthen her boundaries around men.

Please listen and let us know what you think and if Dr. Harley gave you other advice not on the show.
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Surviving an Affair Jump to new posts
Re: Happening again jah 03/22/24 01:19 PM
I have revised my letter based on taking to Steve Harley and also the advice given here:
1) I shortened it significantly so it is not rambling and overblown. I also put the purpose of the letter in the first line.
2) I cut out the part about what mormons believe in and my own faith. It's too preachy.
3) Instead of asking them to voice their disapproval with the affair, I took the advice of Steve Harley to 'ask for advice and guidance'. The reason being is that these are the parents of the OM. To mention what is happening is like an attack on their son, and to ask them to take my side over their own son is unlikely to happen, no matter how bad the OM behavior is. However, when I ask for advice and guidance, it is less like an attack and more like I'm being genuine and humble in asking for help. Now, it doesn't matter what advice they give. They might say, "Pray on it." or "Leave our son alone" or "You should get counseling with your wife and kids". I don't have to follow their advice and should't get caught up on it. But by asking for advice, they are more likely to listen to my side of the story. They might try to intervene. They might voice their disapproval to their son. And this makes a big difference, because the OM is living alone in the basement of his parents house and possibly dependent on them (the OM's ex-wife and 4 kids are in California). If anything, it makes the affair more difficult when the parents know what is actually happening.
4) I decided to include several very recent pictures of my family for several reasons: to show we are still a strong family, to put a face to the story, to help remind the OM's dad what I look like as I've met him as the pediatrician of his grandchildren (the OM's children) before.

For any advice you might have, thanks in advance.
=======

Dear OM's parents,
My name is ------, MD. The purpose of this letter is twofold: to update you on the truth on your son's affair with my wife and to ask for your guidance and advice on what to do. I am not sure what OM has told you, but if I understand correctly you think that my marriage is almost over and that there is nothing physical happening. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

About a week ago I found out that their relationship is not platonic but very physical. I have included texts I found on my wife's phone with your son OM as proof. Knowing this has caused my health and sanity to decline precipitously. I find it hard to sleep more than a few hours a night, I've lost 15 pounds in a week, and at work my mind goes blank, sometimes mid sentence. It is also affecting my two boys, aged 9 and 5, who know exactly what is going on. It is not only devastating for them them emotionally but starting to affect their behavior and performance at school.

As for the health of my marriage and strength of my family, you can decide for yourself. I included several pictures from our recent trip together on March 18, 2024. If I look familiar to you, it's because I cared for all of Josh's children as their pediatrician. As for my family, we still pray before meals and at bedtime together. The four of us still sleep together in the same bed. We take them to the park and play boardgames at night. My wife has plainly told me that she still loves me and cares for me. We still have conversations and laugh. And she is heartbroken when she sees me breaking down. She has also asked me NOT file any divorce paperwork unilaterally, and frankly I have no intention of doing so.

I admit I am not a perfect person. There are issues that I need to work on to be a better husband and father. But I am absolutely willing to make those changes, to do whatever it takes to become the man that my wife deserves. I love my wife and will never give up, but I cannot begin to heal my marriage and save my family while your son is in the picture.

Thank you for taking the time to listen to my side of the story. I humbly ask for your guidance and advice on what you think I should do. You can contact me by text or phone at ------. Or if you prefer, I would be happy to meet you in person.

Sincerely,
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Surviving an Affair Jump to new posts
Re: Happening again BrainHurts 03/22/24 12:51 PM
Yes mbradio@marriagebuilders.com is the correct email. Yes I would try reaching out again because their emails are notorious for going to spam.

Please let us know what he says when you hear back.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/22/24 12:10 PM
Answering a few questions here:
1) My father in law is extremely verbally abusive to the nth degree. He looks for the most degrading, adverse, disgusting things he can think of and then says them over and over and over. I told him to tone things down; he is not someone that would help my situation
2) I agree that you cannot force someone to love someone else. However, if we did divorce, my relationship with my WW will turn into two parents taking turns caring for our two boys. She might suck at fidelity, but I must admit she is a good mother to our kids (we both are good parents). The way I phrase it for my son is that he might hate what she is doing, but she will always be his mom and should love her. However, he should express his feelings however he sees fit. If he is angry, sad, hurt, etc, he should let be known. I don't want to guide him along on what to feel or say, but just be honest.
3) Regarding paying for her surgery; I think if we did divorce, I'd just say to take the money out of the alimony to pay for it. I would't actually 'pay' for it. The problem I'm having is this OM is extremely manipulative. She sees him as a most upstanding guy in the world. He will say things like, "It must be tough, I really hope your marriage works out.", " Your husband must be hurting so much. I know what that feels like. I hope he is okay.", "If you want time away from me to work on your marriage, I'll respect your privacy and leave you alone." All lies, and she eats it up. How can I plan A against that? When I mention that I would pay for the surgery because she is still the mother of my children no matter what, she cries genuinely, not smirks greedily like she just found the perfect doormat. But I understand what you are trying to say about being careful what I say that expresses I condone the affair.
4) I emailed mbradio@marriagebuilders.com. Is that correct? It was the link mentioned earlier. I haven't heard back; I check email a few times a week. Doesn't he get tons of emails? Should I send another email to confirm he got it? Or is there someone to call?

Currently I'm in plan A and it's moving along. I am talking to my WW a whole lot more, sometimes just day to day and trivial things. But I make her laugh more frequently in conversation. I cut out angry outbursts, disrespectful judgments, etc. Taking care of the kids, and as a family when we eat together and play together it's very enjoyable. She mentioned how she caught herself saying several times, "I miss my [Jah]" which is her personal name for me.

However, even though things are pleasant and somewhat happy, I let her know how absolutely hurtful it is when I catch her texting the OM, calling him, or leaving the house to see him. I tell her that her actions and the affair is killing me, and she sees it in my weight loss and emotions. And when she come to try and console me with a hug, I tell her thank you but I don't need a hug, I need the affair to end. And she feels sad about hurting me and guilty at the same time.

I already know where this is heading. She will not be able to choose between the both of us, will be too afraid to hurt one if she chooses the other. So we are heading to plan B eventually, complete separation. Im not going to "win her over" with plan A. The reason for plan B is not for my sanity, but to force her to make a decision; she cannot have a cake and eat it too, have the best of both worlds. But she needs to at least remember how comforting and happy her home was before separation.
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/21/24 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by BrainHurts
Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?
Given that you were mixed up about who is Steve Harley and who is Dr Bill Harley, to whom did you actually write, and to what address did you send it?
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/21/24 07:26 PM
Originally Posted by jah
Her Vietnamese dad came out (he lives with us), more calm and normal. He knows what is happening. They had a cordial conversation in Vietnamese, and after I asked her, "Is he still making you feel bad?" She said no. My WW's dad has been saying cruel things to her all week. I told my wife how I sat her dad down several times, and with Google translate told him to stop putting her down. When her dad said to me, "WW is not my daughter." I told him that she will always be her daughter and he needs to love he no matter what. So I told my wife that, and that hopefully it is starting to help. My wife was touched and thanked me, said I am so generous and kind.
I don't think you should tell your father-in-law how to feel about his daughter. You can't tell someone to love someone else. I'm sure he loves her anyway, and that you are merely interpreting his grief and disappointment as not loving her. I don't think you should interpret his feelings or tell him what to do. And surely the point of exposure is that those people close to your wife, who might have influence over her, should shine a light on her destructive behaviour and tell her to stop it.

If he is being verbally abusive you should intervene, but if he is telling her she is not his daughter - by which I take it he means he does not recognise the person she has become, and he is disappointed - I cannot see how that is a bad thing. The bad thing is her behaviour, not his feelings about it.

In another post, you said you'd told your son that she will always be his mother and he should love her regardless of what she has done. Again, I think that the "love" part is entirely the wrong thing to say to your child. If he finds her reprehensible because she is in the process of breaking up his family and she is causing him, her son, great distress, he does not have to love her. You cannot tell someone, not even a child, to love someone else.

We have a poster here, Markos, whose mother chose someone over his father. Markos was just into double figures, I believe, and he would have nothing to do with his mother. He was court-ordered to attend sessions with his mother and a counsellor with the aim of getting him to accept her and get over the affair. He was dragged along, but refused to participate, and in the end the court gave up making him go. He does not contact his mother and ignores her when she tries to contact him. He and his father and stepmother are good friends, and he is happily married. His wife, Prisca, posts here.

My point is that if people do bad things, the innocent people that they affect are under no obligation to either love or respect them.

You might be hoping that by not telling your wife how badly she is behaving, even if/after she leaves you, she will see you as a stand-up man. I think it's more likely that she will believe you accept that she is happy, and happiness is all you want for her. I have no idea why you would condone her affair in this way. Plan A is about showing her you are the better man, and showing her what your marriage could be. It is not about showing her that you, her son and her father will love her no matter how she destroys your family.

Originally Posted by jah
Part of the reasons my wife is meeting a off island surgeon to possibly have surgery on her knee. She already asked if I will help pay for the surgery even if divorced, and I said yes.
Given what I've said above, you can probably work out that I have no idea why you'd say such a thing and show yourself to be such a doormat. If you divorce and she continues her affair, you should have nothing more to do with her. To pay for her surgery when she is with another man would be to condone the affair to the nth degree. Is that really what you want to do? Do you think that will bring her back to you? - because I don't.

Originally Posted by jah
My revenge will be when at some point, and I know this is going to happen, he is going to ask her, "Why don't you just get divorced already so we can be together." And she will say, "I still have feelings for my husband and I'm not ready to divorce." That is the day I get some revenge and get to break his heart, even just a bit.
Try not to focus on getting revenge on him. Your wife has had several affairs and seems hell-bent on pursuing this one. I'm not saying you need to get revenge on her, but I do think you need to focus on her and her seeming lack of care for you. If her attitude to affairs does not change, you are in for more pain.

The statement that you hope she will make someday down the line probably won't break his heart, not even a bit. He is a player and will probably be glad not to have to put his money where his mouth currently is.
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Re: Happening again BrainHurts 03/21/24 01:41 PM
Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?
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Re: Happening again BrainHurts 03/18/24 08:37 PM
Have you heard back from Dr. Harley?

I agree with SugarCane. I think the letter to OM’s parents is too long. I would make it shorter like the example, but give them the information about being their grandkid’s pediatrician.
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/17/24 10:55 PM
I'm glad you are planning to send a letter to OM's parents and other contacts. However, I think your letter is far too long and very overblown. People will miss the important message that you are trying to convey if you give more details other than the basic facts and the request for their help.

Your message talks about how your wife's words show that she still loves you, describes how your son is broken hearted, and talks about the importance of faith in their lives and yours. None of this is necessary. The letter has the air of desperation when it needs to show strength.

I have searched the notable posts here and cannot find a template letter to OM's parents. However, I think the letter below shows how short and to the point the communication needs to be. You will need to change a few sentences so that they speak to the parents of OM rather than the friends of WS, but you should not add back in all your attempts at pulling at their heart strings.

Originally Posted by MelodyLane
FB exposure letter to family and friends of YOUR WS - this was written by board member, Underdog:

Dear friends and family,

I am writing you this message because you are an important person in the lives of xxxx and I. As some of you know, xxxxx has recently asked me for a separation, which has shattered my heart. To my shock, I am saddened to have discovered that the reason is because she has been carrying on an affair with a old boyfriend named xxxxx xxxxx who resides in xxxxxx. He is also married and has young children . The purpose of the separation is so that she can carry on her affair without my interference.

She refuses to end the affair. I want our marriage to recover from this affair. If you have any influence on my babe, please do what you can to get her to stop this dangerous affair. I want to stay married, but the affair must end.

As our friends and family, I am asking that you use your influence with xxxx to persuade her to end her affair and try to work on our marriage. Our marriage can be salvaged if she would only end the affair. Please support her in doing the right thing. Please support our marriage.

I would so appreciate your support and prayers.

Warmest regards,
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Re: Happening again jah 03/17/24 09:00 AM
Here is the letter I plan to send to the OM parents. OM's dad is a bishop, mom writes columns in their church magazine. I also plan so send a similar letter to the leaders at the church he attends. Comments are definitely welcome. Thank you for all your help!

====
Dear OM's parents,
My name is ------, MD. You might remember me as the pediatrician of your grandchildren, as I have cared for all four the them. As you already know, your son, ------, is having an affair with my wife. I am not sure what he has told you, but if I understand correctly you think that my marriage is almost over and that there is nothing physical happening. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

I included several text messages between him and my wife, and as you can see, they are absolutely carrying on a physical relationship. As for my marriage, you can decide. My wife has plainly told me she still loves me. We still have conversations and laugh. We still pray before meals and at bedtime with my children. We watch movies together. We take our kids to the park together, do activities together, have dinner together. She has asked me NOT to file any divorce paperwork unilaterally.

I have told my children what is happening and it is devastating for them. My 9 year old broke down and cried for hours. Things have settled down, but now when my older son sees my wife texting, he will ask her, “Are you texting the other man?” At night when I hug my 5 year old to sleep, and he asks, “Why isn’t mommy here to sleep with me?” I make up a lie when I know she is actually at your sons house late at night. How do I know? I know where you live (across the Methodist Church) and I can track my wife’s location on my phone.

I know you are both strong followers of the LDS Church or Mormon church. I know that the LDS doctrine is that the family is sacred and the most important social unit in time and eternity. Your son is destroying my family. He is hurting not just me, but my children. And despite this, I find it in my heart to forgive him. I know he recently had a divorce. I know his children are in the US Mainland. I imagine he has suffered and feels lonely. But courting a married women with children is not right.

I am also Christian, a Roman Catholic. I was an alter server and student at Saint Theresa School, and both my children also go there. We go to church on Sundays. My wife and I taught bible classes there years ago. So I absolutely believe that Jesus will also forgive your son for what he is doing. But your son cannot begin to ask for forgiveness until he stops what he is doing.

The point of this letter is to let you know the truth of what is happening. I want to remain married and work on my marriage. I am not a perfect person, but I am willing to make the changes needed to be the husband my wife deserves. But I cannot begin to heal my marriage with your son in the picture.

I do not expect you to stop your son’s behavior, as he is a grown man and an adult, and his choices are his to make. But I humbly ask that you voice your disapproval, let him know you do not agree with what he is doing. That is enough for me. And know that silence on the matter does not help me at all. Remaining silent is just another way of saying that you agree with what is going on.

Feel free to contact me by phone, -----. Or if you want to meet personally I am happy to. Thank you for taking the time to hear my side of the story.

Sincerely,




-----, MD
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Re: Happening again jah 03/16/24 06:27 PM
I want to thank everyone here again, so very much. It's been 11 days since D day, and I am a very emotional person. Slowly by slowly my mind is becoming clearer, I can think better. Last night is the first night I actually got 8 hrs of sleep! I think that helps. Yesterday at work, I was sitting there during child checkups and my mind was going blank several times an hour. Mid sentence. Parents had a confused look on their face, it was a little funny actually. I think it's the lack of sleep.

Things are improving. Last night our family went out for dinner. It was irritating to see her on her phone most of the time, she kept hiding her phone under the table while texting. But I also had some good conversations with my wife. There was a time in fact she reached out and grabbed my hand. I held it there with her for about 20 seconds, were just there in silence holding hands. But I couldn't bear to look her in the eyes, and after 20 seconds with tears welling up in my eyes, I stood up to excuse myself. I'm a little pathetic, huh? I think I need a little more time before I can be in that situation and be able to look back up at her and lock eyes.

Then on the way home, my 9 year old asked us to tell stories about our life. Again, he knows about the OM, and I never told him to do that, it's a game we often play taking turns telling stories and then he would judge who won. We tell 3 stories each, and I won the first two rounds because my wife wouldn't even participate: "I can't remember any stories." But after a few of my stories and laughter, by wife brought out her own story, about how my 5 year old when he was younger, would keep calling a firetruck, "F**K* because he couldn't pronounce it correctly. We laughed happily.

This morning, I made pancakes for the family, while she is texting away. Her Vietnamese dad came out (he lives with us), more calm and normal. He knows what is happening. They had a cordial conversation in Vietnamese, and after I asked her, "Is he still making you feel bad?" She said no. My WW's dad has been saying cruel things to her all week. I told my wife how I sat her dad down several times, and with Google translate told him to stop putting her down. When her dad said to me, "WW is not my daughter." I told him that she will always be her daughter and he needs to love he no matter what. So I told my wife that, and that hopefully it is starting to help. My wife was touched and thanked me, said I am so generous and kind.

I think this first 10 days have been a whirlwind, but now things are becoming clear. This situation is making me a little bipolar really, so angry one moment and then excited (about my plan) the next. Which makes it hard, because one day I want divorce, next day work on plan A, next day I can't imagine bearing all this pain and want plan B, and so forth.

I come up with this "Drop posters of OM all over the town" plan because I want to hurt this man back, because I want a quick solution, because I want to have some control back, and I want to 'force' the situation. Dumb idea.

These ideas are ways for me to take a 'shortcut'. I know the pain that is awaiting me. But I'm thinking clearer now.

I wrote that long letter in the hopes of convincing my wife why she is wrong, maybe having her see the light, lift the fog a little. Again, fanciful thinking, I'm such an idiot. But I'm saving that letter to help remind myself why I am going to win this battle. But is there anything in the letter you think worth discussing with my wife? She rationalized her infidelity because of the bad things I've done, can I ask her how she rationalizes how it's right that this man is dating a married women? Or bring up statistics of abuse in stepparents? Or ask her, why is it that custody of his four children went to the ex-wife and not him? Maybe bringing these points up is pointless, she is still in the 'in love' phase. I suppose maybe these things are better bringing up if at some point she comes to me and says she is confused, loves both of us, doesn't know what to do.

Until then, I have a clear plan now:
1) I am clearly in Plan A. I can handle it now, being calm and caring and loving while watching her spend time and text this OM. I couldn't do it before, but I can now.
1) The OM is in Japan for 2 weeks. It's spring break, I have my golden opportunity! I took off the whole week from work, taking the family to Oahu for a family trip. Part of the reasons my wife is meeting a off island surgeon to possibly have surgery on her knee. She already asked if I will help pay for the surgery even if divorced, and I said yes. So . . . the plan is for me to show her my love and care the whole trip, show her how happy the family is together, show support with her surgery.
2) Get over my emotions. She held my hand, and I couldn't look in her eyes and teared up. How can I build connection if I can't get over that? I must look so pathetic, although I think it does make her feel bad and realize the pain I am in.
3) I have another opportunity at more exposure. The first time I did the exposure, I had limited info (she deleted her text messages, I only have the phone log to go off of). When I notified the OM parents (who are pastors at the Mormon church), they said that their understanding is the marriage is over and he is having no physical relationship with my WW. Well, I have text messages now of the physicality, and we are definitely not divorced. I also just found out where his church is located. I plan to send a new exposure letter to the church leaders and the OM parents. Do you think that's a good idea? I'm drafting a letter now.

And for days, I have been fixated on getting revenge on this OM. Things so unimaginably horrible I can't share on this forum, worse than the most unimaginable. But you know what my comfort is now? My revenge will be when at some point, and I know this is going to happen, he is going to ask her, "Why don't you just get divorced already so we can be together." And she will say, "I still have feelings for my husband and I'm not ready to divorce." That is the day I get some revenge and get to break his heart, even just a bit.
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Re: Happening again Blackhawk 03/16/24 05:18 AM
Steve always says surgical exposure, at least he did to me, and what he means is be strategic about it. Being strategic in your thinking and actions is what he is all about. Being guided by your intelligence and not your emotions. Plastering flyers is the opposite of surgical and strategic, it is like carpet bombing or some mass e-mail spam. It will be perceived by your wife and everyone you know as vindictive and unhinged, although you will feel really good about it probably. It will have the opposite impact than you want, and drive them closer together, or make your wife hate you, which will make your Plan A harder.

Are you focused on your Plan A, since you do not want a divorce and are not in Plan B? What are you doing to help you wife fall in love with you again? What actions? Do you have a daily and weekly Plan A plan with bullet point actions? You may not be able to get her to open up while she is in an active affair, but you can still focus on family and yourself and invite her all the time to your family outings. And if the OM is gone this is your Plan A golden opportunity for 2 weeks! Take vacation and do stuff together if she is willing, with kids, without kids, just take steady actions to persuade her you are the best man for her, not with punishments and teaching her why she is wrong, but with positive loving family building actions. And see where that takes you with her.

In the end your goal is to show her you are changing, you are trying to become the man she thinks she needs, not the man you think she needs. If she thinks you are judging her or trying to shame her, you are going backwards and OM is winning her. It is not your fault you are in this situation, it is his her weak boundaries around other men, but she was not in love with you when this started. If she is an idealized romantic then she wants to be in love with you and without that she is struggling, lost, and open to someone else meeting her emotional needs. That is your goal then, persuade her to fall in love with you by your Plan A actions.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/15/24 11:36 PM
Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate it. I haven't given the letter out yet; you don't think I can even modify it or use certain parts? I do think it says I'm a good man, but I also mention all my flaws. Im not a pompous person by nature, honest. I tell my son that humility is one of the greatest traits.

It just eats at me that when I read her texts, it is the OM that is continuously pointing out my flaws, big and small, over and over, while he is making himself out to be virtuous, loving saint. He says things like, "I hope your marriage still works out." "Im so sorry that you husband is hurting so much" "Do you want me to give you space so you can be with your husband". Absolute manipulation, and my wife is just being poisoned over and over. Don't I get to defend myself? When do I get to do that?

Thanks for clarifying at the end. Every time I see Dr. Harley I'm wondering if maybe you meant Steve. I got it now.

It's been 10 days now since DDay, and I'm down 18 pounds. I am weak but can't eat, I vomit half the time. I go for runs because of all this adrenaline in my veins while my tank is empty. Its starting to get a little better, my emotions don't flare up when I see my wife texting can calling him in the house. I try my best to show her that I am the better man, but it feels so helpless. For example, yesterday I watch the kids, wash the clothes, prepare a wonderful dinner for the family. She is just texting away. I call her to the table to eat with me and the kids, and she says she isn't ready. When she finally comes, she is on the phone the whole time, talks a little to the kids, then leaves. It feels like all for naught. And I can't call her out on not helping around the house because she becomes defensive and says, "Okay then, let me to some." So I stop mentioning it.

The reason she is texting so much is the OM left to go on a volleyball trip to Japan. So not physically here for about 14 days. Meanwhile, it's spring break so I get to spend time with just my wife and two kids.
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/15/24 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by jah
I'm going to ask him in the next counseling session what he thinks of my idea of posting hundreds of flyers specifically about the OM and warning others about him (as I posted earlier).
With the greatest of respect to Steve Harley, he is not Dr Harley, who founded the MB programme and devised all the plans. Steve has been known to alter Dr Harley's advice, especially on exposure, and I have heard Dr Harley on his radio show insisting that exposure be followed according to his plan, to the letter.

Steve Harley is not a Dr, as far as I am aware; he has a masters in psychology but not a PhD. His father holds a PhD. However, even if Steve did have one, he is not the creator of this programme and he does not run the radio show which day after day insists that those seeking Marriage Builders advice follow his - Dr Bill Harley's - advice as written.
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/15/24 10:44 PM
I think that would be a bad letter to send. It tries to educate your wife, which is something that Dr Harley says you should never do. It is also full of disrespectful judgements, which Dr Harley identifies as love busters. Committing love busters while you should be either in Plan A or Plan B - or indeed at any time while you are married - is the quickest way to turn your wife against you, more than she already is.

The love busters are basically telling your wife that you are a good man and she is flawed. She looks at things the wrong way, whereas you have a proper view about things. The letter says that you are a good man and she really has no grounds for turning against you. If you want to send her running for the hills, "bigging up" yourself (as we say in the UK) while putting down her feelings will confirm to her that you are not a man that she should return to; you disregard her feelings and tell her that she has nothing to be unhappy about. Don't you think she already knows that, as a physician, you are clever and highly educated, probably more than OM? Don't you think she already knows how much you earn and can support a good lifestyle, and that you don't drink or smoke and are religious? And yet, as of today, she wants to stay away from you and be with OM. Do you really think that telling her you are better than him will persuade her to change her mind?

The letter is longwinded and pompous - I'm sorry, but that's how I read it. i suspect that, to a wife in love with another man, it would be a gigantic turn off.

You need to SHOW your wife that you are the better man for as long as you are in Plan A, and if/when you go to Plan B, leave her to feel your loss, and realise why she should return to you.

You really need to make contact with Dr Harley and follow his advice before you shoot off in your own direction.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/15/24 06:39 PM
Sorry, I have a super long letter I want to share. I'm sending my wife this letter detailing my thoughts on the affair. I hope it makes my wife realize why she should choose me. Will it help? We will see. Comments welcome.
=====

I am writing this letter because I want you to be able to read it carefully and thoughtfully, without interruption, and without any arguments as you read it.

In the counseling session, Dr. Harvey thinks that you are a ‘romantic’ kind of personality. You think of the idealized marriage. The marriage where they “lived happily ever after.". As a husband, I know I am not an ideal at all. I was frisky and romantic at the beginning, but then it drifted downwards as we got older, and less frequent. Instead of “smell your neck sensually” it became “hug from behind lovingly”. Like an 'old couple' as you said. Then I let our children, work demands, and household chores get in the way of spending time with you, such that I neglected you. And I have my issues with hiding things and with porn. You see my flaws and think to yourself, “This marriage is not good at all. I’m getting older and might have only a limited time to find the ‘right one’, and live in the dream life that I deserve.”

But despite my bad characteristics, I think I have much more good in me than bad. I believe I am more intelligent than most. As a physician, I have a profession that is caring and kind, that people respect and admire. And my profession has a salary that allows our family to not just get by, but have a better standard of living than most. I am a good father for my kids. I teach my kids well, both school and in life. I get involved as a coach. I don’t drink, I don’t smoke. I am fairly religious. I have never beat you or hurt you. I am not abusive. I cook well enough I can take over when you need. I do a good deal of housework. I play the guitar and ukulele well. I write poems and can be romantic when I put my mind to it. I think I’m fairly in good shape physically (although I admit there were years I was fat). My extended family is loving and supportive. I am funny and make you laugh. I am faithful to you and have never cheated on you with another. And my best characteristic of all? My farts don’t stink so much. (Well, that’s my opinion anyways)

So, you see me as your husband and think of our marriage, but you focus on the bad things, and you decide that it’s not ideal. Not perfect. There’s room for improvement, right? And you are getting older. You are not going to be able to attract other men forever, so you need to find someone, there must be somebody out there that is better for you. Someone that can provide that “live happily ever after”. That’s what I think is happening.

Now, lets look carefully at this OM guy. It will be hard for me to be objective (since I obviously hate him), and hard for you also to be objective (since you are in love with him), but lets try none the less.

What makes him good. He works in computers? Well, not a ‘caring and kind’ profession but still useful for society. He seems knowledgeable. Must be funny because I already saw him make you laugh. He seems quite romantic and flirtatious. I think probably religious. He is in good shape I’m sure you would say. (Though I bet I could beat him in armwrestling). He coaches, just like me.

Now lets look at the bad. I’m going to try and be objective here and stick to facts. First and most important of all, he doesn’t respect the sanctity of marriage. He does not, that’s a fact. You marry him, and you will never know if he will remain faithful, because he has broken the sanctity of marriage once already with his relationship with you. Of course he will say, “What I did with you was wrong. I would never do that again. I would be faithful to you forever.” But you take your chances. I read in the texts you had with him, and he said, and I quote: “If you see me acting “flirty” with someone else, I am not. That’s just how I interact. Exaggeration and I like to make other’s laugh. smile. I can smile and laugh with another girl . . . and you have nothing to worry about.” So good luck marrying someone who can smile and laugh with other girls, exaggerate and acting ‘flirty’, but remain faithful. Nothing to worry about when we have already established that marital boundaries mean nothing to him.

Is he a good father? Of course he will tell you he is. But it’s a fact that all four of his kids are in the mainland with the ex-wife. Why is that? Usually, the parent that is more financially stable or the better parent gets the kids. And I already remember in check ups that his daughter was afraid of being honest with him and hid things from him. I’m sure he will give you is side of the story on why the kids are up there and not with him. But you can’t just take his word. I mean, for God’s sake, he will potentially be the stepfather of our children! You need to make absolutely sure he is a good father. You know the best way to do that? Ask him for the phone number of his ex-wife. Then ask the ex wife, “OM might be the stepfather of my children. Tell me the good fatherly characteristics he has and also the bad.” Go find out why he really lost the kids in custody.

But you know what is another fact about him? He is not the TRUE father of your kids. He is not and will never be. So whether or not he is a good father for HIS kids, it doesn’t apply to how he is for YOUR kids. How do you know if 5 years from now he sits on the couch and says, “Go feed that one boy and go over the homework for the other, they aren’t my kids. I’m resting.” You must be thinking, I don’t think he would do that. But do you know 100%? Nope. So while you already know what kind of father I am, you can’t be sure for him. Worse than that, what if he physically abuses our kids? Here’s another fact, “Step children are at a heightened risk of experiencing physical abuse, with rates 40x higher than biological parents.” 40x! That’s 4000% higher, four thousand percent! Why? Because the kids not their kids. And I hate to break this to you, but you could move out and live with him, you could introduce our kids to him, see how he interacted with our kids, and even if things seemed great, you would never, ever know for sure if he would abuse our kids. Because abuse comes not during the ‘happy, put on a good show’ dating phase, but after the “we’ve been married for a few years now” phase. That’s when the abuse begins. Conversely, as a fact you know that I will always be the father of your children, and as such I will always love them and care for and teach them correctly because they are mine.

Some other facts. Im pretty sure I make more money than him, unless he has some big hidden moneymaking scheme. I’m able to afford two houses, while he lives with his parents and from what county records say, both of the houses are under his parents. He plays too much video games by his own confession.

And now the unknowns things about Joshua that will take years and years to discover. You don’t know much about his family. Don’t know 5 years from now he will help with household chores. You don’t know if he has any of the same problems I have: lying, porn, neglect. Of course he is going to say he doesn’t, and that he won’t neglect you, that he learned from his first marriage. Does that mean it won’t happen, 5 years from now when he is working hard, taking care of kids that aren’t his, playing video games, coaching volleyball . . . will he never neglect you? Who knows. What else - you don’t know if he is abusive. You don’t know if he has a hidden drinking or smoking problem he won’t admit. You don’t know who is more intelligent (although I would obviously think it’s me!).

So there you go. An honest look at your choices. OM vs me. Who to choose? Feel free to write more things about OM. I’m sure there are some good characteristics I don’t know about. Maybe he plays an instrument? Maybe he sings well? Whatever. But I think he fails at the most important characteristic, respecting the sanctity of marriage. And the other important characteristic, how he is as a father, you will never know for sure.

I would like to mention one last thing. I think I am also a “romantic” personality, but just in a different way. In my ideal marriage, the husband and wife stay married forever, rich or poor, sickness or health, good times and bad, till death to they part. That’s my ideal. You have so many good characteristics, so so many. I would not have chosen you as my partner if I didn’t think you had so many good characteristics. Including your beauty, and I find you beautiful just the way you are. But you also have bad characteristics as well (I won’t mention the bad ones or you are going to start hating me again!). But I accept all your flaws and try to work around them, try to find ways we can make things work, try to look for solutions. I remain faithful to you despite the flaws. I don’t think to myself, “I’m getting older, there must be somebody better for me and I can live a happier life!” No, I love you and only want you. Because you are my wife, and I will always love you and be faithful to you. But I will point out the one bad characteristic that you have, and that’s infidelity. You put me through the worst pain and suffering a human can ever bear. Anyone would say that I have every right to leave the marriage and start over. But I’m a romantic. I believe in marriage. I believe in “until death do us part”. I believe in forgiveness. And I forgive you for what you are doing to me. And it doesn’t matter what flaws you have, no matter how major, I still love you. And that’s why I still fight for our marriage. That’s why I will do whatever it takes to remain with you. That’s why I am ready and willing to bear all this pain and suffering, for potentially months or even years, because I’m a romantic and want to remain married to you. Because I love you. And willing to wait for you. And the only thing that could possibly end that is if you file for divorce unilaterally. Until then, I will never give up.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/15/24 03:13 PM
Sorry, and to answer a few more questions I noted in the thread:

No I have not contacted a lawyer. We are not at the divorce stage, and my wife actually told me she does not want to file. She begged me not to file unilaterally either. I'm just the backdoor option at this point.

Regarding what kind of serial cheater she is. I don't think she cheats for sex. I don't think she cheats as a game to 'win the trophy'. Dr. Steve Harley in my counseling sessions says he thinks she is a 'romantic' and cheats because she has an idealized vision of what a marriage is like. When our marriage does not completely meet that image, she looks for a fresh slate with another man, her mind thinking that 'this could be the one.' That's an issue that we will have to work on if we remain married.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/15/24 02:59 PM
I'm sorry about not answering questions. I read the posts, and I agree it makes no sense at all to include the OM in counseling. As if that would help the situation in any way.

Yes, I have written to Dr. Harley, waiting for a response.

I read the entire thread that you posted about mass exposure. Its interesting that multiple posters gave detailed instructions on how to mass expose. Then the moderator advised against it. In my counseling sessions with Steve Harley he recommends 'surgical' targeted exposure, and not expose for the sake of it. For example, if I thought exposing to my parents would cause them to immediately and forever unconditionally reject my wife, then exposure might hurt the marriage in the long term.

I'm going to ask him in the next counseling session what he thinks of my idea of posting hundreds of flyers specifically about the OM and warning others about him (as I posted earlier). It would not have any information about me or my wife, so I don't think it would affect our future marital relationship. I don't see the downside. Alternatively, I thought I could use it as a warning for the OM to stay away from my wife and end the affair; I know that it is completely against the idea of exposure (you don't threaten, you do it without warning). But to put this flyer all across the town, to his school where he works, his church he attends, the volleyball center where he coaches, and every library, community center, store, etc. I think that can completely ruin him.

The whole concept of "don't threaten to expose, just do it!" is that if you threaten, you give your battle plans to the enemy. But even if he knows, what can he do to stop me? There's nobody to warn ahead of time. Unlike online, there's no accounts to delete, no posts to take down. There's just physical buildings all around town, and I can put the flyers up quickly and efficiency at any time of day. Sure he can go running around trying to take them down, but you can't get find them all, and the next morning at 3 AM I just put another round of 100 around town.
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Re: Happening again SugarCane 03/15/24 12:51 PM
Jah, I am seeing that you often do not answer posters' questions or take up their suggestions, but come back with more questions of your own.

I wrote to you about MB coaching, asking what you hoped to achieve by paying for OM to do counselling. As you might have worked out, I can't see how that would be a useful strategy at all. It is not something that Dr H has ever recommended. You never answered me.

BrainHurts has advised you to write directly to Dr H, but you came back with questions about doing so - rather than just writing to him. I said that he might not recommend your fighting for this marriage, although I don't know for sure. Are you prepared to take his advice if that is what he says? Have you written yet?

Now you are here asking about plastering your neighbourhood with flyers. This kind of approach was warned against by a moderator on another thread. They said:

Originally Posted by IrishGreen
We are concerned at the advice to expose to hundreds of people using social media announcements and to create fake profiles. Also by the advice to expose to school parents, and acquaintances who live abroad.

Dr Harley's advice is to expose the affair to close family and friends of the betrayed and wayward spouse, the other person's spouse and close family, and line managers and HR if it is a workplace affair. He recommends exposing to one person at a time, in a very personal way by phone or in person, requesting their support in helping you save the marriage. He specifically warns against mass emails or social media announcements.


Dr Harley would be happy to explain his exposure method directly to you. He will also give you general advice about fighting the affair. Email him at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com

That thread is here: https://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php/topics/3015258/1.html. The moderator posted toward the end of the thread.

You need to be very strategic and follow Dr Harley's advice.
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Re: Happening again jah 03/15/24 10:32 AM
Tonight while waking I had a wicked thought. I have been having a hard time finding out online the contacts and information of the OM to maximize exposure. I also live in a fairly small, tight knit community (everyone knows everyone). Why am I going through all the trouble?

I already have two things, his name, and his picture (off the internet).

Why can't I print out a sheet with his face enlarged and with the following words:
This man, XXX XXX, is having an affair with my wife, knowing full well that she is still married and has kids.
1) If you happen to know him, please try to convince him to end the affair and leave my family alone
2) If you are married, or know someone who is married, please warn your spouse, daughter, friend, or colleague that this man does not respect the sanctity of marriage and should not be trusted.

I then post this sheet on every street sign, lamppost, store, church I can find. I could buy a newspaper ad and plaster it on a full page! I could make thousands of copies and drop them out of a helicopter! (maybe not that last one, I'd be arrested for littering)

I see several advantages here. My reputation and my wife reputation is untouched. I think that would be the ultimate exposure and should end the affair. I feel like I'm doing a community service by warning others. And I looked up libel laws, and basically if you ruin someone's reputation with false information, then you can be sued. Every word in the statement is true.

Any thoughts? Has anyone ever tried this or thought of this? It just seems too easy. And obviously I hate this OM, I don't care if I ruin is life.
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Re: Happening again Blackhawk 03/15/24 05:17 AM
Others with more experience will know better, but I would suggest to explain where you are now mainly, tell him what you're doing, and ask for his advice and thoughts on what to do next (your strategy). He does need to know this is a repeat of a past situation (this is the 5th affair?). I would mention you tried counseling with Steve but you wife never played ball. This is important I think as to her mindset.

I suggest this because you have complexities with kids that make this harder. A partial plan B is no plan B and this can hinder your own return to well-being if you have to interact with her I would think. But Dr. Harley knows better than me of course on whether or not this matters or changes your strategy.

As you write, this is her 4th or 5th affair. That seems to meet the definition of a serial cheater. She has weak boundaries around men. Boundaries must be strengthened from her side or this will never work. And she must change jobs if the guy stays there and you probably must move. This is hard, hard, hard. And you need her to eventually be all in for this to work. Without this she will have a 6th affair at some point and you start this carousel again sooner or later.
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