I have read several of the MB books, and let me say that if I could have a relationship that encapsulated all of the teachings, I think I could be the happiest person in the world. Unfortunately that isn’t the way it is, and that is why I am reaching out. My other half thinks the Policy of Joint Agreement is stupid and unachievable. She has read The Basics per my request as well as starting “His needs her needs for parents” but she feels most of it is unrealistic.

I am in a situation and I am not certain what to do, I am hoping that I can get some advice.

For anonymity reasons I will call myself John and I will call my significant other Jane.

Although it may seem strange, yes I am the male half and I am the one looking for relationship advice. Throughout our relationship I have generally taken the typical female role and she has taken the stereotypical male role.

We met at work, became co-workers, friends and eventually became romantically involved. We were both in bad marriages (mine life-less and love-less where we hardly spoke, and hers angry disrespectful and resentful). We became a sounding board for each other and then became each other’s support system. I had asked for a divorce long before I met Jane, but for a variety of reasons mostly around guilt, I stayed and the rut continued. We eventually had a beautiful child, but as you would suspect, that didn’t fix anything. I asked for a divorce again, but this time I had enough conviction to stop the insanity and salvage the rest of my life.

Jane has 3 girls (14, 13 and 11) and I have 1 girl (5).

Jane’s marriage (as I am told, and what I witnessed at the very end), was full of torment. I believe after their second child, the marriage and the relationship focused away from the couple and 100% of the energy focused on the children. It became a competition on who could attain the most “love” from the children. The competition made them resentful of each other. It was if each tried to out-do each other. The girls were treated like princesses. There was no discipline, there was no disappointment. Every pleasure was fulfilled by one parent or the other. There were no rules. Even at a very young age (8, 7 and 5) each child had a TV, VCR, computer… in their own room. At dinner, each child was allowed to pick what they wanted to eat, so dinner could consist of 3 or 4 different meals, and no one had to eat anything they didn’t want including milk or veggies. Anyway, I think you get the picture.

When Jane’s Ex, finally moved out, Jane and I had many discussions. We talked about what we wanted out of relationship, what we wanted out of a family, and what we wanted out of life. We seemed to have a lot in common, we seemed to have many shared values. As Jane was in the house now with her three young girls, she told me how it was her opportunity to start fresh. She admitted how unhealthy the past had been. She started with small changes, which seemed huge to the girls; drinking milk with dinner, one meal for everyone, pick-up your stuff in family spaces, etc. The girls would complain, complain to her and complain to her ex, which caused her a lot of grief.

The competition was still on, but now more than ever. While Jane was trying to find her bearings in the new world of accountability, her ex was becoming the epitomy of the “Disney Dad”. Lavish gifts, expensive trips, and absolutely no boundaries. At first she was strong and resolute. Although it was difficult I felt like she was supporting us and our shared sense of right. She would call me at night and tell me about that evening battles, the disrespect from them and their hurtful actions and words. I hurt with her, as I couldn’t stand the thought of anyone hurting the person I loved so much.

Eventually I was introduced to the kids and started showing up more. Although we had a lot of fun, played games and did stuff together, it didn’t take long for the girls to start blaming me for the new change in mom. I saw how they treated her (and me). When she was giving them stuff or allowing them to get away with stuff they were happy, but as soon as the giving stopped they had no use for her. It killed me.

Not wanted to bore you too much, fast forward a while. Lots of ups and downs. But a pattern was emerging, although I seemed to be the only one to recognize it. Jane would easily slip back into old habbits. Things we agreed to would go by the wayside, promises broken, support wained; all to support the pleasures of the girls. Jane and I would fight, I would try to describe my hurt but she would be so defensive as to justify why giving into the girls despite our agreements. I tried to describe how I felt so much in second place and how all I yearned for was to be her priority and her mine, and in that we would become the foundation of our new blended family. At some point, Jane would put down her defenses, and see the love I wanted to share with her. She would affirm her love for me and we would mediate to a new set of shared values, just a little less than the previous.

This happened in repetitive cycles. One would guess months, but no, it was every three weeks. One week good, one week where the wheels started to fall off, and one week of me being on the outside of her family looking in. Then back to week one. I got so tired of it, I decided that I couldn’t take it anymore. I told her that this was terrible unhealthy for me, for her, for all of us. I told her we either go to counseling or we are done. So we started going. At first things started to get a little better. We were more like a couple. At home there was more balance, less stress and less fighting. Everyone seemed to know what was expected of each other. The girls were resentful (of both of us), but at least their outward attitude was less hurtful. We did family things together and had fun, but it was with moderation and balance. Accountability was beginning to take hold, and there was peace in the house.

But not for long. The girls started to rebel and use their dad’s as a comparison. The competition was back on, and everything we outlined went by the wayside. We went back to the three week cycles. Each time renegotiating from the last position. Each time moving farther away from our original shared values. Over a several year period, we had hundreds of counseling sessions. When ever the counselor broached why Jane felt compelled to please the girls to such an extent, Jane had angry outbursts. Whenever there was talk about balance and partnership, there was defensiveness. So the counselor started to take a different approach. She started to ask me to change; “why do you care what happens?”, “why do you think it is any of your business what Jane does with her girls?” I felt like since the relationship counselor couldn’t get us to be a couple of equals who shared everything, she then was trying the approach of getting us to be two individuals co-habitating and getting together when it was convenient. Well I wasn’t up for that too much, but I stuck with counseling anyway.

More and more the house became Jane’s house. Her house, her rules, her kids, her way. I admittedly became resentful of feeling like I was in second place, like I was always on the outside. She would tell me that it was my choice to be on the outside, but the only way to be inside was to do it her way. To watch her kids treat her like crap when they weren’t getting their way. To watch her try and try to compete, to please them.

Eventually, going to counseling was dreaded. I would say to the counselor that the reason why Jane hated to go to counseling is that “dictators don’t like mediators, because they have everything too loose.”

Over the years, Jane would tell me “if you would only spend more time here, I might feel more commitment from you and thus would be more committed to us”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only give up your apartment…”, so I did. Then it was “if you would only be done with the divorce proceedings…” (it was a multi-year event), and it ended. But each time, it didn’t change. It would change for a short time, but then it went back to the hurtful ways.

Ok, I hope you haven’t fallen asleep yet.

Finally it came down to “if we were married…”. And I struggled with this one. But I searched my soul and despite everything, I still felt like she was the person I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. So I started planning, and I devised a very elaborate engagement, one fitting of the princess she was. Towards the end of my secretive planning, a new issue arose. Her oldest child, whom we had dealt with stealing from the kitchen change drawer multiple times in the past (dealing with it the way Jane wanted to), finally riffled through our bedroom and stole a significant amount of money from my bedside table. I let Jane know, but all Jane could do was blame the missing money on me, calling me irresponsible and unleashing her anger on me cutting me to the core.

We separated for a while, but then Jane reached out in a very loving and uncharacteristic way. She apologized, she apologized for not believing in me, not trusting me. She apologized for treating me so hatefully. But the most meaningful thing is she admitted that she had not let me into her life as a partner, that she had put the girls first, that she did not share and allow herself to be vulnerable. This was the most beautiful note, and one that I cherish. Although I had called off the engagement plans, I worked feverishly to reinstate them. I felt with all my being that she was my soulmate. The engagement was awesome.

For the first time, we went several months being in sync. It was give and take. It was a blend of both of us and we were good. Neither one of us got everything we wanted, but that was the beauty of it, neither one of us lost everything either. I thought we had found our partnership because we were just that good together. But now I know that it was because he hadn’t stumbled into the hard stuff yet. It was a lazy summer, but just before school started we were faced with our first big decisions. I lost the first one, I lost the second one, and now my radar was up. I shared my disappointment that the unilateral decisions were back. She made it clear that she didn’t agree with my positions and that she was the one that needed to make the decision. Things escalated to the point where she was telling her kids “forget what he told you, I am telling you that it is ok”.

I was hurt. I decided to go into work for the evening. She decided to give the ring back. I decided to move out. Giving back the ring hurt me deep. I couldn’t stand being hated by everyone in the house.
We had been engaged for two months, but upon moving out, I was gone for two months. We occasionally tried to get together when the girls weren’t around. We stopped going to counseling all together because I was tired of hearing how we should be together living separate lives and Jane was tired of being questioned at all. While I was gone, things in the house became more and more like the way it was years ago. It was a free-for-all. All pleasure. Occassionally Jane would confide in me the hurtful things the girls would do, the disrespect, the callousness, the lack of appreciation, the taking for granted. I stuggled to not blow up, because as those girls sit there getting everything they want and expecting more, as they complained and showed hatefulness, they had no idea how lucky they were to have what I wanted so desperately. They had what seemed to be so out of reach for me, no matter what I sacrificed. For the first time I admitted to myself how much resentment I had for those kids. I felt ashamed of being so jealous, but at the same time I couldn’t help myself. They were Jane’s number one and no matter how much of myself I was willing to give and no matter how hateful they were towards her, I was never going to get what they got.

After two months, Jane and I tried to give it a go again. She said she realized how putting the girls before me was unfair. She admitted that she was desperate for affirmation and the easiest way to get what she desired was to give into the girls wants. She realized that the affirmation only lasted as long as she was being a friend and not a parent. She admitted that she has been anything but consistent and that she has put little value on rules and lessons. And she acknowledged how hurtful all of that must have been to me.

And although those were all wonderful things to say, things didn’t seem quite right. Within a month, things were worse than ever. This time she exclaimed what I had felt all along “this is my house and these are my kids, and I decide what happens, not you. I am in charge.” These words cut the largest part of my heart out. I became numb. I stopped calling it our house, it is now her house. I stopped calling it home. I stopped calling us a family. I feel so lost.

She now flagrantly focuses on the girls, and my only choice is to be around or not. We are not a couple, we don’t have a partnership, we are room-mates in her house. She has affirmed multiple times that she wants to be a couple, but it has to be on our terms which means that her girls are off limits. The rules and guidelines that we agreed to and built so long ago are all but non-existent. Every day we become more distant. Her with her kids and me alone.

I should also mention when it comes to my daughter, Jane and I do share the same values. I find that the approaches she refuses to use with her own daughters, she is quite comfortable with when it comes to mine. The difference is, I don’t have an issue with her actions towards my daughter because I think they are reasonable and appropriate. When looking at other peoples parenting and the results through their children, once again, Jane shares the values we once agreed upon. It is only when it hits close to home that she believes those values are needless and over-bearing.

Oh and I forgot to mention that way back, about 8 months into our relationship, despite all the sentiments of deep love and everlasting commitment, Jane had an affair on me. I found out. I found out about all the lies and sneakiness. And she denied it, and denied it. But when she could not hide it anymore, she told me a partial truth, and then after more probing, another partial truth, until I finally gave up on probing. She told me that she was under stress because her and I were disagreeing on boundaries and how partners should treat and value each other. She told me that she was looking for an escape. She had also been exercising and she liked the feeling of being attractive and wanted. She told me she knew it was wrong, but she couldn’t seem to stop it. It hurt me beyond words. But this is another issue that never gets resolved, because every time I tried to get through some healing some other crisis would suddenly occur, and it was never the right time. And on the few occasions that I got the courage to bring it up, it was met with disdain for me for bringing it up. And ever since, when we fall into trouble and she starts acting secretive and like a single person, my fears and my radar go up. Do I think she is cheating, no (at least I hope not), but my emotions get the best of me. And would I bet my life that she has only cheated on me once, again I pray so, but I wouldn’t bet my life on it. So not only am I faced with feeling like I am in second place, I secretly fear that I may be in third. I am a mess.
If I could resolve the hurt of the infidelity in my heart, I think we could put that behind us. But the hurt of being second, to not have a home, to constantly feel unimportant… I can’t get that behind me because it happens every day.

So this is way longer than I ever expected, but at the same time there are so many details missing.

If you have any advise, please don’t hold back.

Best,

John

John,
If I'm reading this correctly, you and Jane are an adultery-based marriage, correct?


And now Jane, an adulteror, is doing what adulteror's do. She is cheating.

When a person meets and marries a person by way of cheating (an adulteror), it seems odd to me they are surprised or complain when they cheat.

Jo

Sort of I guess.

For me, I asked for a divorce about a year before Jane and I got together. I was dying on the vine, I was in the marriage way to long and everyday it was killing me emotionally. It wasn't that we fought, we just didn't talk at all. But my ex nearly had a melt-down when I told her I wanted a divorce and so guilt kept me around. Every day I hoped that God would just take me away (I was suicidal, but if it was God's will...). For a variety of complex (health, not age) reasons I agreed to have a child with my Ex. The result was a beautify girl who I am now very close to (although primary physical custody is with her mom). My decisions have been questioned by lots of people including myself, but they have been made and I am trying to make the best of it.

When I agreed to have a child with my Ex, my soul knew that I couldn't be with this woman but at the same time I couldn't leave her without a child (too complex to get into). I talked with her doctor, and the advice was to wait to tell her after the pregnancy but don't wait too long because the longer it goes the worse it will be. Don't think that all of this came easy to me, there were many hours and many days I spent at the edge of the ocean asking God for guidance.

So did I have an affair? I don't no. My heart tells me know, but the courts say yes.

As far as Jane, she was in a terrible marriage (abuse / disrespect / resentment), but she was in it. I asked her one day if it wasn't for me would she stay in the marriage, she said probably because being miserable was better than being alone. I asked her another time and she said she wasn't sure, inevitably it would probably end because a person can only take so much abuse, but it probably wouldn't have been as soon. So yes, it would be defined as an affair.

Sometimes I wonder if that is why I am still with Jane. Is being miserable better than being alone. In my first marriage I knew the answer was no. But with Jane it is different. Many things are different with Jane. I know love like I have never known it before. With Jane I have emotions that I have never felt before. With hundreds of relationship counselling sessions behind me, I know because of Jane I am a different and better person because of her.

Since I am seeking advice, I am answering the question honestly. I am not sure what the difference is, but I guess my lack of knowledge is what brought me here in the first place.

I would duck if I were you, John.

Thanks for the judgement.

Although I probably deserve some amount of judging, I am not sure it is by you. It seems to be very easy for you to jump to conclusions. I am not a perfect person, nor do I profess to be. I have flaws but I am honest about them. And I try to be a good person. I live the motto "random acts of kindness" and I live it very often. My charity and good deeds are only seen by God and sometimes for the person/people I am doing it for. Does that make up for everything, no, but I have a good heart and I think God (who is the ultimate judge) knows that.

I have read every word on the MB site, and I have read multiple books of his. And I have to say I am a bit shocked and disappointed that the first piece of feedback that I get after pouring my heart onto this board is some cheap-shot judgement from you.

I have no idea what your story is, but your response is about you. Maybe you have been hurt, and for that I am sorry, but I had nothing to do with it. If you need a shoulder or an ear, I am happy to lend one.

But please know I came to this board for solid advice on how to save this relationship, if it is even possible. I know that I have something special here, and although I feel like it is slipping away, I care enough to fight for it. I would think Dr. Harley would acknowedge the importance of that.

Jane and I both say that outside of the kid issues, our relationship and love for each other is as near perfect as we could hope for. But as soon as the kid issues enter the mix, the wheels fall off. That is why I came here. That is the topic I need advice on.

So if you need to vent, feel free if it makes you feel better. But if you have something constructive to say, I am all ears.

John,

If you're talking to me, I'm not judging.

I said, "duck" because there are many on this forum who do not condone affair marriages (relationships).

They don't work, John.

If you start a relationship by cheating on another, you're going to get cheated on. It's as simple as that.

There's a lot of people here who will explain it a lot better than I can.

If you've read everything on this MB site as you said you have, you would know what I'm talking about.

Could you please make a few things a bit clearer?

When did your EA begin with Jane?
When did each of you divorce?
Are you now living with her and her children?
Am I correct that you are NOT married to Jane...yet?

Sorry, I wasn't referring to you rltraveled. I guess that is one downside of a flat message board, it is monotone, you can't direct comments, and sometimes things are lost in translation.

I was referring to Resilent.

What they don't have any knowledge of is the amount of time I spent with my priest going through reconciliation, I am not talking 10 a minute in and out thing here. It was indepth, and they listened and understood. And considering the first response and your thoughtful warning, I think they showed much more humanity than what I may be about to receive. In the end, I went through reconciliation. And if someone wants to question whether it was good enough, they they need to take it up with the Pope or maybe just take over for God himself.

And let me clarify, I have read all of Dr. Harleys writings on this site, not the message boards.

And I should further clarify that I read them during my current relationship, not in my previous. So I am referring to my relatively new enlightenment.

And in reading all of that, Dr. Harley and his sentiments and teachings never struck me as judgemental. His focus seems to be on making relationships work. He focuses on love. And of all the books I have read, he is one of the very few "experts" that stike a cord with me. The "love bank", joint decision making, love busters... they are all awesome concepts.

But I thank you rltraveled for the heads up. You are right, people can be mean spirited. Just look at the news and the media, ratings are highest when people can throw rocks at someone elses life. If I get a lot of negative and unconstructive feedback, I will just delete my positing and find a more appropriate place to get advice on relationships. I had high hopes for a sight whos core is centered around "the love bank", but maybe this is just an easy picking site for people with an ax to grind.

John,

BA109's question bolded above is an important one.

If you haven't married Jane, then I'd certainly recommend you enter into individual counseling and sever the relationship with her. From your initial post, it appears your emotional relationship with her started while you were both married. That is an "emotional affair".

Jo

John,

Resiliant is NOT being mean-spirited.

You need to read here, a lot, and you need to know that most of us here have been very much adversely affected by affairs, and the vast majority to not take kindly to affair marriage, myself included.

I would have rolled up in a corner and died, had my husband actually married his OW.

The idea of affair marriage is extremely painful to most people here. Not to mention. as I stated earlier, THEY DON'T WORK!

John,

Aside from Harley's "Marriage Principles", perhaps you should read the "Infidelity" articles by him. I think it would be of benefit considering your circumstance.

Here is what Harley writes about marriages resulting from adultery.

----

[color:"blue"]As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success.

That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. [/color]

----

Source: Click Here

All About Infidelity: Click Here

Jo

1of2,

Glad you found this site. Let me toss a few questions your way.

(1) Your GF/fiance cheated on her former spouse and now on you. This seems like a pattern. If this isn't the kind of relationship you want, maybe you should be distancing yourself from this woman

(2) What does your GF want/get out of the relationship? She doesn't seem to want marriage. And she doesn't seem to want you to be a co-parent. It is not clear to me that you want the same things.

(3) If you put yourself in your GF's daughter's place, wouldn't you think that in their mind, you've busted up the marriage between their mom and dad? I think to hope for a good relationship with these children is optimistic and naive.

(4) Blending families is tough stuff. In dating this woman, you don't seem off to a good start with her kids. In my mind, you can expect disaster if you get married.

- WG

You have got to be kidding me.

I come to this site for advice in helping me save what I feel is the most important thing in my life, and all everyone is focused on is how they were affected by an affair.

Let me give you a bit of a clue (I didn't think it was relavent, nor did I think I needed to but apparently I do)...

The weeks leading up to my wedding day, everyone around me started seeing signs. They would quietly ask me if I was sure I wanted to go through with this. They saw changes in her and in us that I just refused to see. I just said, things will get better. On my wedding day I was in the back of the church crying uncontrollably, my best man begged me to call off the wedding because he knew something was very wrong. I told him it was too late, we had a church full of people, things will get better. For several years I kept saying things will get better. Then I asked for a divorce, but she would have none of it. So I said things would get better. Then she got cancer, and who the heck can leave a person with cancer, so I stayed. You people have no clue the life I have endured.

And for Jane, she underwent episodes of physical abuse, forced sex, and torment. Her Ex would get the kids to talk trash about her, and treat it like it was funny. He would drink and I mean drink alot every night. He got mad at her for several weeks when they conceived their third child because she was took antibiotics for a cold while on the pill, when she didn't even want to have sex that night but he made her.

And that isn't even the half of it, from either of our past lives. You people have no clue what either of us have been through.

I would see Jane in the morning (before the EA) sobbing after a night of him getting drunk and screaming at her till 4am when he passed out, and then she had to get up at 6 exhausted to get the kids ready. This happened quite often. Or she would email me about some new "fat" or "stupid" comment he got the girls to say to her (she isn't fat and she has her MBA). She would be at the bathroom door at work as I came out after throwing up because I just hated my life. This wasn't some saultry relationship spawned from some perverted trist. It was humanity, empathy, listening, and support that brought us together.

Is there hurt in this world, yes. Have you been hurt, oviously yes. Does my heart go out to you, yes. But my God, I had nothing to do with the hurt you feel. Both of us did the best we could in the crappy situation we had. Both of us have gone through the reconciliation process in our church. Both of us are trying to start new lives.

I am very empathetic for all the bad things you and all the people like you have gone through. It is a tremendously painful thing. But I can't do anything more about that other than to say I am sorry that you as a human being had to endure the hurt.

Can you please direct me to the forum that is actually for people looking for constructive (Dr. Harley like) advice for "After Divorce: Dating and Relationship" advice with a twist towards blended families.

I could have easily omited a couple of sentences, changed a few references and none of you would have jumped on adultery. That wasn't why I came here. Had the adultry issue not come up, maybe, just maybe I would have gotten some real advice. I picked this forum specifically. I could have omitted some facts, but I was trying the honesty approach. I wrote 5 pages, and the focus is on 5 sentences.

John,

How you started your relationship with Jane is integral to your problems now. You cannot separate the two.

IMHO, if you're not yet married to Jane and if you two started this relationship while still married to other partners, the right and sane thing to do is to end the relationship and seek individual counseling for your own healing.

Jo

1 of 2,

You are telling us lots of things from both your past to justify the affair, that you have found yourself in.

You did not come here for advice, you came here for validation of your affair.

Sorry we don't give that here.

Dawn

1of2,

I would suggest that you make an appointment for one or two sessions of phone counseling with the Harleys. If you explain your situation they will give you the best advice. This board does not have experts on it. It has people that have been devestated by infidelity. Some have survived and made their marriages better, some have gotten divorced and healed personally. Others who's M didn't recover have their POV.

If you are looking for advice that you believe is sound, you will better off starting with the Harleys. And stay on the boards until you locate some that are willing to discuss your situation in a way that you feel is productive. The holidays don't always have the cream of the crop as far as good veteran posters are concerned.

Stay Pono.

Imi

Some things never change, do they? You've posted enough details already for us to see that you are in a train wreck of a relationship that began as an EA while both of you were still married.


This is why it is called an Emotional Affair, not a Physical Affair.

Sure, you could have left out the info about how the two of you met but then you would have received skewed advice. Is that what you want? You can manipulate the facts any way you like so as to get us to tell you what you want to hear.

1of2,

Even if you had not mention your GF's 8 month ago infidelity, you've posted enough to leave a lot of concerns about whether this relationship is healthy for you. Even if you hadn't mentioned the origins of the relationship, which coincided with the breakup of two marriages, you've still said plenty of things that suggest you are clinging to a relationship that doesn't seem likely to end up in a healthy long-term relationship.

Here's what I mean.

Your GF is not a healthy parent. For some reason, she has trouble identifying, and putting the needs of her children above some need of hers.

Do you today? Or where you possibly influenced by your 'rebound' relationship after your marriage ended.

And it sounds like she hasn't made other than small changes, and not for the long term.

Of course they did. You were what changed and perhaps the only one trying to change. Why are you trying so hard to change these girls and their mom?

Did it kill you, or your dreams of a perfect family. Your GFs ill-behaved children are her responsibility. Why are you trying to interject yourself on them?

Jane has a history of almost perfectly choosing her girls emotions over: (1) you; and (2) their better interest. None of us here at MB can change Jane. You can't change Jane. Only Jane can change Jane. Jane doesn't seem to want to change Jane.

It seems obvious that you will always be in second place. You are getting hurt in this relationship. Why can't you give it up? What need of yours is it filling? Why do you try and rescue her?

This is what you want. I am sorry to be the one to tell you, but Jane does not want this.

I'm not an expert in psychology, but I don't think people can change their values easily, if at all. At best you might have negotiated a set of shared behavior. But she values what she values, and you should look to actions, not her words to find out what those values are.

It was unhealthy for you. And it seems like it still is. What does Jane get from the relationship? Do you support her financially?

Wait until they are teenagers. You have no clue what you are signing yourself up for. Also, you will always lose to their dad.

They were never shared. You just projected yours onto her.

That's interesting and surprising to me. You both seem motivated to keep the relationship.

Did she direct the anger or outburst at you?

This is a good question. You are not their dad. You really shouldn't and don't have any say. You are not even a step father.

Do you share your D5 with Jane equally? (Why would you, with her impaired parental judgment?) Even if you do, you seem to have some idealistic notion of a perfect family. Real step-families have long-term issues that don't go away. You can't be an instant parent to Jane's three girls. They will never want this. You might be able to have a relationship with Jane where you are her BF/husband and not a co-parent. But you don't seem to be able to accept this.

Whose house is it? Since you gave up your apartment I presume it is her house. If you don't like how your GF treats you, why are you sticking? Do you not think you can find a healthier relationship?

That is Jane's issue, not yours.

She has consistently done this for what sounds like > 5 years. Why do you think it will ever change? Because you want it too? That's crazy thinking.

Yes. It will always be like this with Jane.

Keeping secrets isn't 'in-the-Harley' way. Most women I know would rather be involved in wedding planning.

These were her words. What actions since then has she taken to show you the place she has for you in her life?

In my experience, in-love intoxication is really a period of maximal divorce from reality.

You can't even make it out of the honeymoon period without crisis. This is not a relationship with legs.

I agree with you on that. Recall previous comment on teenagers.

Remember my point about her values not being your values. She doesn't share your values.

As is her right, married to your or not. Did you have a very male-centric upbringing, and if so, did Jane also?

How does your D5 handle this crazy family situation? Do you have custody, or visitation? Are you putting your child's welfare first by pursuing this relationship?


Obviously. Her values aren't your values....


They are. They don't want your sacrifice. They don't want you.

With Jane, you never will.

She said. Ignore her words. Listen to her actions.

I am sorry you are in a relationship with so much misery. Really. But you seem to need this relationship in a way that is not good. Even without referring to her affair(s), this relationship is not going to work. You and Jane are not compatible. You are not happy letting her raise her own daughters in her own manner.

It will hurt, but leaving Jane and finding out what neediness drove you to her is the best advice I have. When you are in a healthier, less co-dependent, place, you may find a relationship that is a source of joy for you.

- WG

This seems to be the bottom line. Poor decision making...even when others are waving big red warning flags before you.

As Joss Stone sings:

"I've got a right to be wrong
My mistakes will make me strong
...
Got a right to be wrong
So just leave me alone"

Aside from the fact that the entire family needs to be in intensive counseling - those kids are going to be severely screwed up by the time they hit 15 to 20, except perhaps your D, the big white elephant in the room is you and Jane's disconnect on what your goals are. But the disconnect is there because of Jane's poor life skills.

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that her children are majorly suffering - they are practically guaranteed to grow up into screwed up adults who will continue the cycle with their families.

You need to both learn about raising children, and how what you're doing is affecting them. I'm sure she loves her kids, so if you can get her to see that she is harming them with these bad parenting skills - maybe look up some disaster stories, so she can see the outcome for her kids - she'll be willing to listen to you. At the very least, the two of you need to go to someone who will teach you the basics of raising kids. And teach her that her personal issues - needing strokes, etc. - should not affect her making the right decisions for her kids.

If you could both get on the same page as far as the kids go, I think the other stuff will fall into place.