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#2295796 12/29/09 04:32 PM
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I read Dr. Harley's material on getting a low sex drive spouse (most often the wife) to meet the other spouse's emotional need for sex. It is interesting to note that Dr. Harley seems to view this as a fairly mechanical exercise. He even states that a person can learn to meet his/her spouse's need for sex, even given a low sex drive. It seems to me this misses the point. I want my wife to want me. If she isn't into it, sex is meaningless. I don't mean to be crass, but a wife who does it just to satisfy her spouse is providing the exact same thing a hooker provides. She is doing it out of obligation in order to get something in return. What am I missing?

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You can look at it that way. I doubt it will increase your level of happiness.

Or you can choose to look at it as your wife giving you a tremendously loving and generous gift. Something incredibly precious and intimate and personal. Something she only shares with you. I hope that would increase your level of happiness.

After all, your wife might choose to view everything you do for her as nothing more than what a john provides. Payment for sex. Would you want her to adopt that view of everything you do for her?

As one half of a couple who each thinks the other views our marriage that way, I can assure you it is not a fun place to be. But in the end, it is your choice how to view things. Choose wisely.


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Dear Holding. Sorry your marriage is approached that way. Sad. I see your point about attitude. But of course I never would say to my wife, "Dear, I really don't like talking to you or going places with you, or finding out how your day went, but I have to in order to get sex." That kind of attitude or belief would never be defended by any reasonable person. On the other hand, it seems fairly common in marriage for the low sex drive partner to freely admit they do not have sex out of desire, but that it is only done to keep the peace and get something in return. And based upon my reading, it seems as though a large number of so-called experts think that is OK. That is just kind of creepy to me.

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I don't want you to think I am arguing with you to judge or denounce you. It is precisely because I share many of your thoughts and feelings that I imagine I understand how you approach this issue. It is only because I spent 8 year in marriage counselling and almost 8 years here that I see the errors I made and the ones I hope you will avoid making. It is only because the thoughts and feelings we share did such damage to my own marriage that I offer a different viewpoint for your consideration.

Why do you keep focusing on "keep the peace" or "get something in return" and not on "give a tremendously loving and generous gift"? How come you get to say "I don't take out the trash to get sex, I take out the trash because I love her" but she can't say the same thing in reverse? That is a Disrespectful Judgment toward your wife. A Love Buster.

Or to twist it slightly to show you the embedded value judgment you are making, why do you get to decide for her what is a valid reason for her to have sex with you? Why do you get to decide that she only gets to have sex when she "wants sex out of desire" and not when she "wants to offer sex as a generous gift"?

You seem to think that a person having sex when they don't want it out of desire is somehow wrong or shameful or crass. Some people might see things differently, or even quite the opposite. Some might say that having sex out of desire is the more selfish and crass motivation, and that offering sex to one's partner as a loving gesture is more selfless and noble. Why do you get to choose for both of you which it is?

Or from another perspective, I interpret your statement to mean "I want her to want me as much as I want her, so she will not have the power over our relationship and sex life that comes from wanting sex less than I do." Or "I want the ego stroke from knowing she wants me sexually". Again, that is you trying to dictate her thoughts and feelings. Disrespctful.

If you want an ego stroke (in MB terms, you have a need for Admiration, which is understandable and perfectly OK to have), then tell her openly and honestly how you feel and make a thoughtful request for a behavior she can do that will meet your need. But do not dress it up as some immutable law of human relations that people "should" only have sex when they want it out of desire. Because not everyone agrees with you. And your wife might be one of those who doesn't. And she might not enjoy knowing that you judge her negatively for feeling the way she feels.


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hold,

I can see both sides here. In my sitch, she would have SF with me and use to make it seem like torcher or lay there like a blow up doll and then tell me she loved it, then other times she would go wild. I'm not looking for the wild woman everytime, but some reciprocation would be nice. I do agree with you that to have this given to you is a great act of selfless love and respect for your needs.

2010, I wish you good luck.

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Swanman...

Reasonable, even usual, in marriage to want your spouse to have the same feelings you do...in fact, sometimes, we are provocative when we are angry so that our spouses WILL feel anger at the same time we do...outrage...joy...frustration...you name it.

Doesn't mean it's healthy, just understandable.

You both are two separate human beings with individual reactions, your own feelings, choices, thoughts, beliefs, perceptions. Believe me, in marriage, this gets very mixed up as we become "one" instead of maintaining the real one...the one union.

Owning what you want as yours is essential...it's valid. You want your W sexually, from your brain to your body...in that mix are body chemicals, hormones, pheromones, symbols, affection...lots of stuff. Impossible to have your W want you sexually, in the same way, with the same ingredients.

However...if your W agrees to have SF with you...even when she doesn't feel like it, mostly because in her brain, where sex is, there is a list (could be unresolved grievances, old stuff, current stuff, stuff that hasn't happened yet)...then accept her choice...because for me, at times, I have to commit to the action and then my feelings follow.

Getting in the mood is the old-school saying...means she IS attracted to you all the time...and has trained herself to not act to this attraction...and once the thoughts still, the body relaxes, the loving touches begin, she DOES respond to wanting you...

So getting to the commitment...understanding aversions, pre-existing aversions we deny during courtship...other stuff (the corrosive wax buildup of resentments, scorecards, personal insecurities, the detrimental stories we tell ourselves)...and the very real aversion we can develop with our spouses over time...exist.

Develop together a plan to share, address, acknowledge and understand each one...together. Really listen and learn who your W is today...her thoughts/feelings/beliefs/perceptions right now...

And get to know and share your own "why I desire you", where those come from...components of your attraction for her for SF...because within those may be statements of affection, admiration, conversation which meet her top ENs...

and consider, if SF isn't in the top five ENs of your spouse...you might just be meeting that EN very well for it not to be noticeable. Within SF can be ENs of security, loyalty, acceptance, approval, openness and honesty, admiration, appreciation...list goes on and on.

Do you know if your W perceives visually, audibly or kinetically?

A big part of SF is about knowing and being known today...deepest sacred connection...if, like Hold says, you choose to believe and experience it that way.

Part of falling in love with your spouse again and again...not the all or nothing...lots of ENs to meet...and our desire for another is manufactured in our own heads...you totally control your desire for your W...and she, for you. You can't make another want you...and we're told differently, day in and out (right cologne, aftershave, jeans, car).

Know your influences and get to know hers...allow for her to not want and do, anyway...and then feel loving after you guys begin...keep discovering, negotiating...acts of patience, interest, attention and devotion built the desire in the first place.

LA

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loving,

Wise words, but I really get cynical at the kinesthetic, "get her in the mood" stuff. My wife doesn't have to motivate me or get me in the mood to go to the office daily or even to help her with DS. I really struggle with that feeling thing. I'm betting many women would want their Hs to "just" clean and cook or ask them on a date etc... without hinting or asking. It's not a stretch imo to have the W reciprocate or place the responsibility on herself to "get in the mood" every once in a while on a regular basis.

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Originally Posted by themud
loving,

Wise words, but I really get cynical at the kinesthetic, "get her in the mood" stuff. My wife doesn't have to motivate me or get me in the mood to go to the office daily or even to help her with DS. I really struggle with that feeling thing. I'm betting many women would want their Hs to "just" clean and cook or ask them on a date etc... without hinting or asking. It's not a stretch imo to have the W reciprocate or place the responsibility on herself to "get in the mood" every once in a while on a regular basis.

I'm curious. Since most people on this forum (for religious purposes, I assume) seem to frown on masturbation, exactly how do you expect your W to just get herself in the mood? You do realize that women are not machines, right? We can't just flick a switch, and whammo, we're suddenly "in the mood." Men may not require foreplay or any sort of preparation for a satisfactory sexual experience, but almost all women do.


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Here is another perspective from me, a woman who likes sex.

1. If a woman is very busy or tired and is not used to having a lot of sex they will not be jumping thier husband or dragging him to bed to show thier desire.

The ANSWER for this sort of situation is for the wife to "try" and allow some sexual moves. And the husband to gently relax her enough to have sex. With loving words, bringing some fruit or a drink,, and some soft touching. Soon, that woman will WANT sex. But if the husband did not approach in this way, the wife would not even KNOW SHE NEEDED SEX! I have been there.


2. It is easier with some woman like me who likes sex. I am more likely to show my husband that I want sex. But it is difficult for women to initiate sex. We were trained not to initiate but to respond. I had to break my training in order to get more good sex.

3. Sex has to be good for both. The woman and the man have to be totally satisfied in sex. This takes experiance and knowing how each persons body responds. This should be practiced and verbally each partner needs to tell the other one what they like and in what order.

Because women are different then men regarding sexuality, a good smart man will "figure out what works best" to make love to his wife and then the problems will lessen. A woman who feels totally loved is more open to talking about, touching, and starting to have sex. "Starting sex properly" is EVERYTHING to many women. If a man can figure this out, he is a very lucky and happy man indeed!

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I disagree that people here frown on masturbation. I like it and mutual masturbation is also a "sex act" that is possible. There are 1000 ways to make love and different ways can be used at different times to satisfy the loving spouses.

For example if one partner does not feel like having sex tonight but the other one needs it, there are 100 things that can be done to make all happy.

1. The sex desiring partner can be satisfyed by hands, orally, or a sex toy.

2. One partner can be satisfyed even if it means the sex desiring partner plays with themself while the other spouse kisses and touches them.

3. Sometimes only one spouse wants sex, but when they start, the other partner gets into it. That happens often with us.

4. Too many other situations to list.

What I am saying is if you start to learn about sex, sexuality, and your loving spouse's sex drive and what turns them on, and get into the complexities, the creative ways to have sex, and the give and take of making love, then you can make your sex life great. Be persistant and learn. Do not give up.

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writer1 - I can only offer my experience here.

Getting "in the mood" for a woman - well, for me anyway - is actually two-fold.

First, I need to be able to relax with my H. That means that the day and evening prior to having SF (preferably longer than that, but for this example we'll go with that day) needs to not have been full of stress and frustration with LB's from H. That puts me in a defensive position and not feeling like being open and vulnerable with H. If there's been that kind of stress & strife, I need quite a bit of quiet time talking with him to defuse all of that and reconnect with him on an emotional and intellectual level before anything physical feels good. I don't even like him holding my hand or hugging me if he's been LBing me.

Assuming that the day's been ok, or that he's taken the time to reconnect with me, and assuming I don't need to de-stress from something from work (though that is usually fairly fast with some pleasant conversation and maybe a drink with H), then comes physical. I normally (and I suspect many women) do NOT physically warm up anywhere near as fast as my H. Nor do I appreciate it if he zeroes in on my breasts and other genitals immediately as he tends to do if I don't remind him. I need a pretty long warm-up time with caresses, massage, & such that's sensual, not explicitly sexual. Then I start "getting into it".

My H used to feel rejected by the fact that I wasn't jumping him and initiating sex frequently, until we had a frank conversation about this very thing. Many times when we start, I'm frankly not thinking, "gee, I'd love to have SF". But if he takes the time to do the things that "rev" me up, I get into it to more than his satisfaction. And the more pleasant experiences I have where he's not whining and berating me over my lack of drive compared to his, the more I tend to think about it independently and sometimes I find myself initiating things and then I don't need all that warm-up time either.

Also, when H isn't LBing me, and is meeting my EN's, I'm willing to engage SF even if I'm not particularly in the mood, because I a) trust that I will enjoy it because he will take his time; and b) realize it's a top EN for him and I want to meet it. That doesn't mean that I'm putting myself out or making myself miserable for him. If I'm not feeling well, or for some reason I know I just can't enjoy it and it won't be a good experience for me, I let him know that, and we table it for then. (Though for the record, I have no issues with my H masturbating - I'll also participate actively or passively (he prefers me in my flannel nightgown to porn - isn't that sweet?) if he requests it.)


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Men usually become more intent on SF the less of it they have, up to the point of becoming disgusted to the point of just repressing their feelings for their wife. She might like that at first, but his other feelings for providing DS, FS, conversation, and every other EN of hers will be repressed right along with it. The first time he meets another woman who rekindles his interest in women, his wife and marriage are in trouble.

Women seem to usually have less desire for sex the less sex they have. Go without it a while, and pretty soon they stop thinking about it. They are "in the mood" less and less. If they do wonder why, they are going to look for a reason outside of themselves. Must be their husband taking that new job they didn't want him to take, or not making enough money, or not keeping the yard as nice as the Joneses.

If you expect someone else to change your attitude, but for your spouse to change their own attitude, don't be surprised when it's the OW or OM who changes their attitude.

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I'm generalizing, but I also think that LBs tend to diffuse sexual desire for a woman more easily than a man. In my own marriage, if we exchange ugly words or have a fight, it's very difficult for me to just forget about it (if it hasn't been resolved) and participate eagerly in SF. H is able to compartmentalize. In fact, he often tells me "I just want to relax and ease into the morning/day/evening" etc.

Easy for him to say. I'm sitting there still steaming and he's able to just put it aside.

ETA: Wanted to say that this is an area where MB definitely makes a difference. When I feel safe admitting how I feel to H, and he in turn doesn't disrespect or otherwise LB my feelings, then we are able to talk it out. And THEN I am able to participate with enthusiasm instead of reluctance.

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In order for me to do the dishes, my wife has to set the feelings just right. Not for one day, but for many days and she has to initiate and then just let it happen naturally, but there is no gaurantee I'll still do them because I might be tired or might of had a stressful day. Same goes for FS, affection and conversation.

Kind of sounds stupid doesn't it? Put SF in there and it sounds just as stupid.


Retread is right, I've put up many EP so this hasn't happened, but those EPs are eroding with time and I came very close to making a mistake that could have ruined my M. I've done exactly what he describes though. My repression has affected all of my other thoughts to satisfy my Ws EN, I just don't care. If I do them out of habit, fine, but if I don't so what. This is actually making her think and SF is happening again because I'm sick of not having my ENs met. Kind of like a Plan B, I'm protecting myself from her boarderline narcissism.

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mud, as a woman, there is a part of me that would like to pick apart the first part of your post. But as a woman with a high SF, need, I can't. You're right. Our front door is stupid and old. You have to jiggle, put your weight on your right foot, and hold your mouth just right to unlock it. After awhile I just get the urge to kick it open. One shouldn't have to juggle so many balls just to open the door. smile

Yes, I am inherently female, so I do like affection, sweetness, etc. But when the setup is infintely more exhausting than the act itself....what's up with that??? I am not saying H does this. I am speaking about SF in general. Sometimes the old Nike commercial comes to mind....

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Originally Posted by themud
In order for me to do the dishes, my wife has to set the feelings just right. Not for one day, but for many days and she has to initiate and then just let it happen naturally, but there is no gaurantee I'll still do them because I might be tired or might of had a stressful day. Same goes for FS, affection and conversation.

Kind of sounds stupid doesn't it? Put SF in there and it sounds just as stupid.

I'm afraid there's not much hope of you ever having a truly fulfilling and intimate relationship with your W if you can't see the difference between SF and doing the dishes. I'm sorry, but not all EN's are created equally. They just aren't. It's entirely possible to do the dishes after a huge fight that included lots of LB's and AO's, but (for a woman at least) it is next to impossible to open herself up emotionally and physically to her H in an intimate way after such an encounter. She might be able to perform the act, but her heart wouldn't be in it

Doing the dishes requires nothing more than that you stand next to the sink and run messy plates and cups under a stream of water. There are no emotions involved. It is a rote physical act, a chore so to speak, and can be accomplished whether one is in the mood or not. Is that the kind of SF you would like to have? Because I can all but guarantee that approaching SF the same way that you would approach doing the dishes will not lead to a close and intimate experience. You may get the physical act, but that's all you'll get.


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themud, it doesn't sound so stupid when you recognize that 4 out of 5 women have been sexually abused, usually before they graduate high school. It doesn't sound so stupid when you have a basic understanding that sexuality for most women is more of an emotional and mental activity than a physical one. It doesn't sound so stupid when you take the time to understand what sex means to a woman.

What sounds stupid is equating sex to washing the dishes or FS or DS, or even conversation. I can provide or receive all of those things to or from a roommate.


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I don't know if this analogy works, but are there any moms out there who have ever been really tired or stressed, and your daughter comes up toyou and says, "Let's play Harry Potter!" That means I get to be all the professors and she is Hermoine. This has been several years ago. Now, honestly, what I want to say is that I am too tired. What I feel like doing is laying still on the floor while she stirs the cauldron. What I do? Put on my hat, do all the voices, and have her make a very compicated potion. Because she wants to spend time wth me. Because I love her. Now, am I being dishonest with her? Would it be better if I told her I just really didn't want to but I would?

Can I do the same thing with SF? Well, maybe not the voices...that would be weird.

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What about conversation?

I agree with you 100%, but those things that need to be in place are too subjective. I've been there and done that. It is very hard for some women to imagine a warm hearted, caring, devoted husband that cleans better than their wife, cooks better, does laundry better, vacuums better, irons better... There are men out there like that. Men who are affections and jump at the chance to rub Ws feet or shoulders, brings home flowers and chocolates, lights candles. On the rare day off, bake cookies with the kids before she gets home from shopping. Helps her bring in the groceries and put them away.

With family in town they are floored how masculine my son is and how boyish he is, but how he, at the age of ten, jumps to help gradma's coat on off and hangs it, how he goes to the kitchen, but asks if anyone wants anything before he goes in to get a glass of water. He's not perfect and leaves his socks on the floor, but OMG his chivalry is unmatched at his age. Where does he get it? I guess it must be instinct or... is it possible that his dad does this and he is copying me?

I've tried everything tangeable and intangeable, so I don't believe all the crap spewed anymore. Yes you get in the mood or you don't. That's like saying others are responsible for making you happy. Unless they've done something to make you unhappy, it's your responsibility to be happy. Once someone makes you unhappy, says sorry and you get over it in minutes/hours/days you should be in that happy place.

My wife has shown me by example that all of that stuff is baloney. She tells me she is horny around noon. WTF good does that do us even on the weekend, not to mention I'm at work at that time. I get home help with dinner, dishes, entertain the kids, help with laundry and the cleaning SHE DIDN'T DO, and climb into be to have her not even make herself available or respond to me trying to get her in the mood. Am I bitter from all the years of this? YES. Is she now turning? YES. WHY? Because I'm fed up with her excuses that I'm responsible for her moods! Will we have a satisfying M? We will not have one in 7 years if she does not see how I'm trying to get rid of the past pain and how she is responsible for being a W. I've never once asked her to do my laundry or praise me with admiration, I get that at work and I can clean and do laundry better than she can! I've started out nicely asking for SF then gave up, and am willing to give up our M when the kids are gone to release me from being with someone who either doesn't want me or doesn't care.

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It all comes back to this. SF is different from all the other needs. It is different because of the powerful emotions many people associate with it. And it is different because it is the only need where we require complete fidelity.

That makes it unfair for the higher drive spouse. Period. It simply isn't fair. And it cannot be made fair. And a large part of the debate over SF would end of the lower drive spouse would acknowledge that simple fact.

They have unique power in the relationship. With that power comes a responsibility. Often the lower drive spouse does not want either. But it is inescapable once you impose monogamy on the relationship.

I think most higher drive spouses would be much more understanding and appreciative if the lower drive spouse would admit that the situation is not fair. And do their best to help remedy the imbalance. Rather than complaining that the mismatch isn't their fault and they don't want the responsibility for fixing it.

It isn't anybody's "fault". But the lower drive spouse is the one who has most of the power to resolve the problem. Which also isn't fair. And places an undue burden on the lower drive spouse. Complaining about that is no more productive than the higher drive spouse complaining how many hoops they have to jump through before sex occurs.

Assuming the lower drive spouse is being honest about what they need to be "in the mood", the higher drive spouse needs to jump through the hoops. And assuming the higher drive spouse is being honest about how much they need SF, the lower drive spouse needs to do what they can to minimize the number of hoops involved.


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