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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I am seriously pursuing my own vulnerability.
smile

Don't push it.
This "V word" is a developing thing.

What I know:

I only became vulnerable after I became strong.
After I recognized my own strength.
After I knew that if H ever became wayward again (or started drinking again) I have the strength and the where-with-all to leave him standing alone in his own dark place.

Vulnerability to love and be loved.
Strength to walk away when I need to

I hope this helps..



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I work with her every day. I have spent a lot of time talking to her. We talk about our families, and our likes and dislikes. I can talk politics with her; she is rational and prudent.

Its not quite an infatuation, but I am very fond of her.

One day, I saw her in the halls, and I was overcome with joy. I admit, I just gave in and hugged her.

Then, gently, she kissed me on the ear.


No! I was dumbstruck. "I don't know what my wife will think about this!"

"Oh, she don't have to know, honey."

I had to tell NGB.

I told her everything. Her expression shocked me. It was amusement. As if she had been expecting this.

"Oh yeah?" She asked... Almost jokingly. I was floored.

"Which little old lady was it?"

... Gotcha!

Whew. I needed that. Just over one year from full disclosure. Our M? Yes, its better than it ever was. But, just like a lot of betrayed spouses, I have my days where I wonder if that's enough, or if it is too little, too late.


As Pep warned me, some days I don't trust it. Some days, it takes some strength to go home.

Still working on letting her know when I spiral, but want to make sure its not a flame out. That is one thing I can't stand that has changed about me. I am used to mood swings and depression, as its something I have always dealt with what I am not used to is having something to be angry about.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
... Gotcha!

Yep, you did!


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
"Which little old lady was it?"

Me?

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
"Which little old lady was it?"

Me?

Sorry, Pep.

You have to be either older or crazier to live where I work.


Heck, yer a WHOLE DECADE younger than my dad!


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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So its been a year, huh?
Stay strong


Me: 43
ExWW: 44
Married 16yrs. 4 children

EA (ExWW): May-Nov 2009 + Aug-Dec 2010
D-DAY JAN 30, 2011
Exposure: FEB 7, 2011
Contact Again: Apr 25, 2011
Divorce Final Sept 2012

"I want to be married and stay married. Now I uunderstand the kind of marriage I want and we all deserve. But I also know it takes two to want to Build that Marriage."
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Originally Posted by stretch123
So its been a year, huh?
Stay strong

Stretch,

If it helps you at all, I will tell you this; my strength no longer comes from my heart. FWW murdered that strength with her infidelity and lies.

My strength comes from my mind now. My willingness to learn.

For others, that isn't enough. For those people, the best thing they can do is to seek strength of spirit through their faith.

In a sense, I am doing the same, but my faith centers on science and rationalism. That isn't always easy, as science grows and changes with closer study, and texts of faith forever remain the same.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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HHH-

My SAA thread has a run of religious based posts where a lot of our colleagues stress that their faith in God has helped them thru the pain of being on either side of the adultery fence.

At a certain point you realize that what a philandering spouse is doing (no less, thinking) is not rational in any way. To risk losing their family for some clandestine tookie is a mental sickness they have. They must know it will end poorly at some point but still engage in the A. Not rational thought.

I said to my wife at one point did she think this would go on forever? She said they werent thinking at all.

So, finding strength in the something like faith in God makes sense. Looking for a scientific rational reason for infidelity may not be possible.

Maybe some can take comfort in "the Lord works in mysterious ways", on some days I can take this comfort and on others, not so much.


Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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Originally Posted by MikeStillSmiling
Looking for a scientific rational reason for infidelity may not be possible.

On the contrary, there are plenty of scientific and rational reasons for the driving forces behind infidelity.

Where there is not an explanation of any kind, is how one makes the choice to commit an act they know is wrong and destructive.

"I know this is wrong, but..."

Filling in that "but" is the purpose of fog talk.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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... to envy the the new guy that got to beat the piss out of his OM?

To want to thank the guy?


Seriously, more beatdowns would make these ratbags think twice (all apologies to our reformed ratbags).


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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YES.

I did enjoy reading that. I must say.



Life keeps on slipping, slipping, slipping into the fuuuu-ture.
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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
... to envy the the new guy that got to beat the piss out of his OM?

To want to thank the guy?

You know, that could be a great idea for a new line of Hallmark cards. ..


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Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I work with her every day. I have spent a lot of time talking to her. We talk about our families, and our likes and dislikes. I can talk politics with her; she is rational and prudent.

Its not quite an infatuation, but I am very fond of her.

One day, I saw her in the halls, and I was overcome with joy. I admit, I just gave in and hugged her.

Then, gently, she kissed me on the ear.


No! I was dumbstruck. "I don't know what my wife will think about this!"

"Oh, she don't have to know, honey."

I had to tell NGB.

I told her everything. Her expression shocked me. It was amusement. As if she had been expecting this.

"Oh yeah?" She asked... Almost jokingly. I was floored.

"Which little old lady was it?"

... Gotcha!


Just had to say, HHH, that in my lurkdom over the last week, you were thisclose to getting me out of hiding with that thread title. I was like, "WHAAA......??????" shocked


FWW

"Snow and adolescence are the only problems that disappear if you ignore them long enough." ~ Earl Wilson
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Originally Posted by wulffpack_girl
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I work with her every day. I have spent a lot of time talking to her. We talk about our families, and our likes and dislikes. I can talk politics with her; she is rational and prudent.

Its not quite an infatuation, but I am very fond of her.

One day, I saw her in the halls, and I was overcome with joy. I admit, I just gave in and hugged her.

Then, gently, she kissed me on the ear.


No! I was dumbstruck. "I don't know what my wife will think about this!"

"Oh, she don't have to know, honey."

I had to tell NGB.

I told her everything. Her expression shocked me. It was amusement. As if she had been expecting this.

"Oh yeah?" She asked... Almost jokingly. I was floored.

"Which little old lady was it?"

... Gotcha!


Just had to say, HHH, that in my lurkdom over the last week, you were thisclose to getting me out of hiding with that thread title. I was like, "WHAAA......??????" shocked


No woman who is not an octogenarian has hugging privileges with me!

I won't get caught up otherwise. I have known for a long time that I am vulnerable to other women, and so I have always kept my boundaries firm; limited interaction, no extended forms of contact. On the few occasions (involving FB, myspace) that I have allowed any other woman access, being messaged, emailed, or IM'd just creeped me out... *shudder*

My joke? I've learned to live with FWW's quirks, and have no interest in having to do that over again!


I have written up EP's. Now, for anyone who HASN'T done this, let me tell you why it is great. By writing this all out, and filing it in our "marriage binder," I have more certainty that my expectations are clear and concise, and that there is little to no "wiggle room" for violating those expectations.

Quote
Extraordinary Precautions
Conditions for the continuation of Marriage


Protection from the previous affair
First and foremost, NGB agrees to No Contact for life with her former affair partner and coworker. Contact includes, but is not limited to; email, text, Facebook, MySpace, or any other form of social networking or electronic communication, phone calls, and especially face-to-face personal contact. Any and all contact initiated by NGB with her former affair partner will be recognized as continuation of adulterous activity, and grounds for divorce. Any �accidental� contact, or contact initiated by the former affair partner will be reported to HHH immediately. If, under any circumstances, NGB comes into contact with her former affair partner, she is to immediately leave the area and call HHH.

Friendship with OMS is not to be rekindled or maintained, and only a minimal professional relationship will be tolerated. This means there will be no attendance of events which OMS will be present at, no text exchanges not directly related to work, and no conversation at work of personal matters.

Protection from future affairs
NGB will, under no circumstances, maintain �friendships� with members of the opposite sex. Contact with members of the opposite sex will be limited in time and content in the following manners;
1) Absolutely NO contact or conversation with former boyfriends, long-term male friends, or former sexual partners
2) Absolutely NO contact or conversation with men who are unfamiliar to HHH, and who are not, in fact, friends of HHH�s or friends of the family
a. In instances of HHH�s friends, or friends of the family, contact is NOT to carry on alone or in private, and is not to include material outlined in the section �acceptable conversation� in this document.
3) Absolutely NO personal conversation with male coworkers or customers. Conversation is to be limited by the �acceptable conversation� section of this document.
a. Breaks, lunches, and any time before or after shift are not to be spent alone or in private with any male coworker or customer � NO EXCEPTIONS.
4) Absolutely NO riding or sitting in the vehicles of men in the previous categories.
5) Flirting with any male other than Michael is not acceptable. Any male flirting with Heather must be told BY Heather that it is not acceptable � this includes comments about NGB�s body or features, or any comments which are in any manner sexually or physically suggestive.
6) Any form of non-professional contact or conversation with any member of the opposite sex which NGB finds physically attractive will not be tolerated.
a. NGB will report honestly if she has any physical attraction to any male coworkers. Any and all conversation with these people which occurs under any circumstances will be reported to HHH.

At the closest possible time and date, a legally prepared and binding post-nuptial agreement will be drafted and signed. Conditions in this agreement will include the following;
1) In the event of divorce with adultery named as the fault, NGB will be entitled to and receive no more than 25% of the marital assets including; cash, cars, furniture, electronics, and/or any home(s) which are marital property.

In the event of divorce due to repeat adultery, NGB understands that HHH will sue for full custody of the children of the marriage with extreme prejudice.

Adherence to Marriage Builders material;
The Policy of Radical Honesty (PoRH)
The Rule of Protection
The Policy of Undivided Attention (PoUA)
The Policy of Joint Agreement (PoJA)

NGB will confess her adultery to the children of the marriage. Furthermore, a list of target family members will be discussed under PoJA, after which a letter of exposure will be drafted and signed by both HHH and NGB as a form of protection of the marriage � evil always dies in the light.


Conditions of divorce
The event of divorce, especially in the event of repeat adultery, will in no manner be amicable or friendly. HHH has no interest in being �friends� with NGB, not even under the rationale of �for the children.� Adultery is a selfish and cruel abuse which, if repeated, will lead to a complete termination of contact. Under these circumstances, all contact will be sent through a third-party intermediary, and will be limited specifically to information about the children of the marriage.

Acceptable conversation
Section A
As circumstances of work and certain social situations may make conversation with members of the opposite sex necessary, these conversations will exclude the following topics;
1) Music, movies, games, sports, hobbies, television, and/or any item of particular popular culture.
a. Rationale � discussion of these topics reveals personal preferences, likes, and dislikes and fosters the building of bonds between participants.
2) Personal history, memories, events, holidays, friendships.
a. Rationale � these topics are personally revealing and produce vulnerability.
3) Any and all problems, conflicts, or complaints of the marital relationship or family.
a. Rationale - any conversation of this subject with anyone other than HHH is disrespectful to the marriage, and dangerous. All problems, conflicts, or complaints of the marital relationship or family are to be discussed with HHH, and HHH only.
4) Details of personal life or family or friends
Section B


Topics of conversation with the opposite sex which will be acceptable include;

1) Work scheduling
a. Work scheduling is not to be shared with non-department personnel other than store management
2) Work tasks which need to be completed
3) Communication and feedback related directly to work tasks or the schedule

Summary
Any conversation with male coworkers requires only content outlined in Section B. No conversation with male coworkers including topics in Section A is required to perform work tasks, and is therefore to be avoided with no exception.

Acknowledgement
The terms and conditions outlined in this document are HHH�s right as the victim of NGB�s cruel and thoughtless actions in carrying on an affair. These terms are in no way negotiable or subject to PoJA. By signing this document, NGB states understanding of the conditions of just compensation and extraordinary precautions due if she wishes to remain married to HHH.

Signature: _______________________________________ Date: ____________________

Last edited by HoldHerHand; 09/01/11 10:38 PM.

"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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HHH -

When you mentioned you had written up EPs, I thought you were talking about your own. However, what you posted are EPs for your FWW.

Did she not write up her own? If she did, why is that not the basis for this "contract" that you posted?

The EPs you listed are quite valid, I have no issue with those. My feeling, though, is that it's a more honest admission and agreement if it comes from your FWW (POJA'd, of course, with you) than if it is written more as a mandate/ultimatum from you. (Although, again, I understand that.)

Dunno, maybe it's just my own quirk coloring my take on it.


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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
HHH -

When you mentioned you had written up EPs, I thought you were talking about your own. However, what you posted are EPs for your FWW.

Did she not write up her own? If she did, why is that not the basis for this "contract" that you posted?

The EPs you listed are quite valid, I have no issue with those. My feeling, though, is that it's a more honest admission and agreement if it comes from your FWW (POJA'd, of course, with you) than if it is written more as a mandate/ultimatum from you. (Although, again, I understand that.)

Dunno, maybe it's just my own quirk coloring my take on it.


Up until this was prepared, EP's were largely verbal - so I took the initiative to get it written out.

She has reviewed it, and what is written is what she has lived per her input.

Again, I typed it up for myself so that the expectations are clear.

It is awful dry, harsh in some places. Yet, that is the reality of it; I'm not doing this again, and if it even begins to approach what happened before... nope. Not gonna do it.

Clear and concise.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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DH and I had a conversation about something like this earlier tonight. In a nutshell, it was about avoiding justifications I could use for future infidelity.

That's one concern I felt over the EP contract you posted, HHH. It strikes me as something a WW could use as justification or to build resentment.

A second concern is that, no matter how true it is, I wonder if it would be a lovebuster for her. I wonder, particularly with time and distance from the trauma and accompanying remorse, if your W will read this letter at some point in the future and be more likely to harbor feelings of ill-will over it/its wording.

To reiterate, I certainly see where you're coming from, and don't deny the rationale nor the impetus for such a contract. My DH would be right there with you, should I get it in my head that a repeat of the summer of 2008 would be a good idea. And I absolutely agree with that stance.

Again, I don't know. It could just be me.


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Trip, I spent no time writing contracts, ad nauseum.

(I related this story before so skip it if it's tedious.)

I said to her once, "I have loved you from the moment we met, I love you today, and I will love you until I die, unless you ask me to stop."

She smiled and asked, "How could I ever ask you that?"

There was an obvious pause, and without smiling, I answered. "There is only one way."

The point is that all the wherefores, and aforementioneds, etc in your contract have no weight without the understanding of the enormity of the result of her breaking them. And if that result is unerringly understood, all those words and clauses are superfluous, anyway.

There are no "Pause", or "Replay" buttons on her game-controller from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Pepperband
Originally Posted by HoldHerHand
I am seriously pursuing my own vulnerability.
smile

Don't push it.
This "V word" is a developing thing.

What I know:

I only became vulnerable after I became strong.
After I recognized my own strength.
After I knew that if H ever became wayward again (or started drinking again) I have the strength and the where-with-all to leave him standing alone in his own dark place.

Vulnerability to love and be loved.
Strength to walk away when I need to

I hope this helps..

This is a key thing going on here.

I found the strength to walk away 2 weeks after D-day.

I am looking for the strength to stay.

Part of finding that is knowing that my terms are clear. So, along with EP's, the terms were explained. I can be flexible on a great many things; where we will live, if she works or not, if she wishes to go to school, parenting choices, home decor, etc.


So, what I have done, is to clearly define the things which things I perceive as infidelity, or a threat to infidelity, some EP actions which have not taken place (post-nup), and described what divorce under the condition of adultery will look like.

With this, the hope is to never discuss any of it again.

Should I make the poor decision to be an abusive or negligent husband, this will no doubt be a source of resentment or justification. However, should she become wayward again, the air I breathe will be cause for resentment, the manner in which I breath it will be justification.


I know it seems late in the game for this business, but I'm sick of this invisible wall in y heart blocking out this woman who has become my best friend, a better lover than she has ever been, my favorite companion, and mother to my children. I want to FALL IN LOVE with her , and to do that I need to remove my roadblocks.

Make more sense?



"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

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Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
DH and I had a conversation about something like this earlier tonight. In a nutshell, it was about avoiding justifications I could use for future infidelity.

Abuse or neglect. That's the sum.

When it comes to abuse, that is my largest struggle with those down or trigger days. Like tonight. Up after midnight because I'm wound up and can't sleep. When I tell her, she just wants to know how to "fix it," and I don't have an answer for that.

It reminds me of my band teacher in middle school, and one day during Veteran's Day they mentioned Vietnam. They were just mentioning how horrible the war experience was, and the look of shear pain on our goofy, joking band teacher's face... the way all the joy dropped right out of him.

I have only an infantile understanding of that now, and even that scant amount sucks.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
That's one concern I felt over the EP contract you posted, HHH. It strikes me as something a WW could use as justification or to build resentment.

She used pretty much anything and everything she could grasp out of the air as justification, resented everything she could to carry this on.

I'll not fear that again. It destroyed me when I heard that fogbabble. DESTROYED me. My wife, my marriage was the one thing in life I felt I hadn't failed at. Whoever that person was no longer exists.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
A second concern is that, no matter how true it is, I wonder if it would be a lovebuster for her. I wonder, particularly with time and distance from the trauma and accompanying remorse, if your W will read this letter at some point in the future and be more likely to harbor feelings of ill-will over it/its wording.

Would it for you? How so?

I'm sure that she could do the same with a post-nup. Gonna happen anyway. I swallowed my pride through 8 years of emotional neglect. She had my unconditional love, undying devotion, and my foolish trust. All that was tossed away for a dirty little fling with a d-bag mamma's boy who couldn't even own up when he got caught with is hand in the cookie jar.

Was it a mistake? Yes and no. It wasn't a single mistake, it was a series of mistakes made through naivety and arrogance.

Do forgive the past transgression? Yes. However, there are reasonable steps to be taken to protect from future transgression.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
To reiterate, I certainly see where you're coming from, and don't deny the rationale nor the impetus for such a contract. My DH would be right there with you, should I get it in my head that a repeat of the summer of 2008 would be a good idea. And I absolutely agree with that stance.

While I added a date and sig line, it is not a contract. The stance was almost... hmmm... managerial when writing. Besides, contracts aren't worth the paper they are printed on.

She has reviewed it, and has stated no objections - though, I am trusting that she is being honest and not accommodating.

Originally Posted by Mrs_Vanilla
Again, I don't know. It could just be me.

I don't think it's just you.

Again, I have but a single hurdle to clear, and it is proving difficult.

Truth of the matter is, the 'ol LB$ was pretty dry already when it was shattered. I want to plug the dang leaks. I want things to start to match up.


"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr

"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer

"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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