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I have not been here for a while. I was quite busy with my new responsibilities (promotion) at work. I didn’t even have a chance to lurk the board. I guess, in that sense, either I have been too busy with my new job or I have been at peace with my situation. I still missed you all, but I didn’t have an urge to come here that often any more. <p>It doesn’t mean that I’m out of the wood. Thing between us is getting better from here and there, but not to the level to where I see it as a husband and a wife. My wife finally got a job (part time) three weeks ago. She was quite busy with what she had to do in term of priority after staying home for more than a year and half. I guess that was where thing was getting better because none of us has time to think about anything else. We both were busy with our new jobs. <p>Other than that we still live like roommate taking care of two children. For the first time in more than 2 years (27 months), my wife wanted to spend time alone with me on our anniversary. We dropped the kids off at grandma’s house and we spent the entire day driving and shopping for just the two of us. At the end of the day (after I went to bed), my wife gave me a hand-made card that said she really enjoyed a relaxation and peaceful day alone with me and thanked me for giving her a rose that I picked from our backyard. She also thanked me for the card and for taking care of everything on mother’s day. She gave me a kiss and a hug before I went to bed that day (Yes, we still sleep in a separate bedroom).<p>That should make me feel at least happy about it, but somehow I didn’t feel that way. It is almost like I was reading the last chapter of our relationship and she’s just reading the beginning chapter of that. Maybe my patience is running thin nowadays and I just don’t have the hope for us to be a husband and a wife anymore. Somehow the thought of leaving this marriage popped up in my head more than before. Just the other day, I happened to see the OM drove by at the intersection, the whole affair thing just brought back to my head and I didn’t feel good about it. <p>Sorry for venting and rambling, but thank you for listening.<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: OffOnOnOff ]</p>

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OOOO,<p>Good to hear from you! Sorry that things haven't improved much. Progress has been at a snails pace and I understand exactly why you have feelings of not being in this anymore.
Have you or do you think that you could make the next step? Do you think she would be receptive to that? Can you ask to come back to your bedroom, no strings? Tell her you'll have seperate covers. Maybe sleeping close to you will kind of break down some walls. How about another date for Father's day. Since it's your day, you can chose how you would like to spend it. Maybe another camping trip [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]
Don't give up. I know it's been soooooooooooo long. Do you think that she would be willing to have a heart to heart talk about the future? Is it worth a try?
Keep us posted.....

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OOOO<p>You get lots of points for patience...if only that was enough to pull us thru, right?<p>I don't recall---are you two in counseling? Together? Alone?<p>It seems like you are at a spot where you are at least considering throwing in the towel. I can kind of relate to that patience running thin, thing. Even for those of us with a lot of patience and understanding there is a limit.<p>I think you will know when you reach yours...<p>I wish I had some good advice for you, but I really don't...the only thing I can say is do what works for me...a day at a time...<p>Good luck <p>E

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OOOO,<p>JUst think where you were this time last yr. Your W has come such a long way & yes, I know you still need to go along way. YOu have so many of your needs unmet for a very long time but just think of the progress.<p>& yes I am going to nag you call STEVE. you really need a plan now more than ever. you can keep on drifting & you might one day do the unthinkable or you can tell your W that you are so glad she has come this far but you need more & does she think she will be able to provide what you need. MY STBX never thought I could give him what he wanted, I don't think he ever gave me a chance but the point is, he would never break with the OW as he thought I couldn't be what he gets from her.<p>Call Steve.<p>Congrats on the new job.<p>G

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Yuck,
too bad you had to see the OM drive by... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] but good that she made a nice card for you [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] bad that you are thinking more and more of ending it [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] but good that things are a bit better and you both are busy with your jobs and the kids [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] not good that the spousal connection is missing, sleeping in separate rooms, feeling like roommates [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Nope, that cannot feel very good at all!<p>Just wanted you to know I'm reading and thinking and praying for your family...

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Thank you Cleopatra, Elad, Sing, BINthereDUNthat and those who read,<p>Cleo,
That were very good questions that you have asked. Unfortunately, you might not like the answers I’m about to tell you. I don’t even know what the next step is any more. In term of sharing the bedroom I don’t think that will ever happen. Believe it or not (as far as I recalled) we were using separate covers right after my daughter was born (two years after we got married). I had been like that until I got “kicked out” of the bed right after my son was born almost 12 years ago. <p>No, I have not given up yet. But the circumstance may dictate it that way now. Here is why? My wife just accepted another job that started on the second shift. By the time I got home from my work, she’s gone to work and by the time she got home from her work, I’ve gone to bed (separate room). So from now on, we only see each other over the weekend. So I’m back to doing the cooking, the grocery shopping and taking care of the kids’ activities. It is not a big deal to me because I had been doing that for more than 10 years out of our 16 years marriage anyway. <p>So I guess I become single DAD after all. <p>In term of the heart to heart talk about the future, I might have to find the time to do so soon before I forget my wife or don’t remember who she is. Well, I don’t want to remember who she is right now anyway. L<p>Elad,
No, I’m not in counseling right now. I used to. My wife has never been in counseling period. She refused to do so.<p>sing,
I hear you. Hopefully that will become loud and clear to me someday with my thick ears. Like I said before I’m somewhat at peace with it now than before. I know that so many of my needs have not been met, but I have to learn how to accept that nowadays. Someday my wish will come true (I hope). <p>BINthereDUNthat,
Yep, once a while I still ran into the OM because he lives within 10 miles from where I live and he passes my house when he goes to work.

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OOOO,<p>I think it is decision time, and I don't mean just Plan B. The affair is over and has been. You are not married and haven't been married for a long time. As you describe it you are a single Dad now. So why hang around a woman that doesn't want you, doesn't care for you , and frankly cannot stand to be intimate with you???<p>I just don't understand your thinking here. Your children don't even see you two together, and if it is weekends at least you two could do something together if you choose to. But, unless the Priesthood is really something you like, I do think it is time to move on.<p>OOOO, it is time for a divorce. I cannot say it any more bluntly than that. Frankly, whether your W admits it or not, that is what she thinks, but she is simply a coward and is punishing you for her sins and cowardly behavior. <p>Please think about this. I know this is a MB site. I am very pro-marriage but by any measure this marriage is over and has been over since your W's affair. Frankly, I think she has some serious emotional issues and has had them for a long time, that is why nothing you have really tried has worked. Things only work if they work the way SHE wants them without regard to you.<p>Even the Harley's won't attempt to counsel rebuilding if someone is still in an addiction or has other deep emotional issues. It doesn't work and you are getting the predictable results.<p>OOOO, I would love to be wrong about this. I mean really WRONG, but I fear that I am right. What do you think?<p>God Bless,<p>JL

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Thank you JL,
I know maybe it is time for me to do something or to make certain decision about this whole mess. But before I decide to let go, I have to find the way to talk to her once and for all, heart to heart and see what she has to say. Since she has just got this new job less than a week ago, I don’t want to get to the talk yet. Maybe and just maybe, I might bring this up after the kids’ school is over in mid June. <p>In term of the kids seeing us together or not, I don’t think they even see that as something unusual at all. They got used to it already (that’s unfortunate). We are still doing something together over the weekend, but only after my wife wakes up and has breakfast around noon. By then I get ready to eat my lunch and the only activity that might end up doing together is to drive the whole family to my in-laws for dinner (as usual). The same pattern happens on Sunday, except the dinner part. I end up doing my laundry on Saturday and she ends up doing her laundry and the kids on Sunday. Then the whole cycle begins again when weekday comes and then weekend.<p>JL, I know you have told me before that it is time for me to move on with my life. But for some strange reasons that I couldn’t explain or might not even know myself that I couldn’t bear to break my family apart, especially my kids. <p>JL, I think you might be right on this, but somehow I’m still in denial on this. Maybe my own “fog” is thicker than I thought that I might not even know it. Besides, I don’t even know how long she would last on this new job because it isn’t quite the right job for her yet. I could be wrong on this but I want her to have a real permanent job before I take any action. <p>So what do you think? How about a heart to heart talk for one last time? But what should I say to her? How do I bring it up?

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OOOO,<p>Not that you need my advice or approval, but I see nothing wrong with a heart to heart. I think however, that you should have a plan in place to move on. It sounds as if you sort of do with the middle to end of June when the kids get out of school. Frankly,your children are seeing a very weird marriage, and it might be affecting their views of things far more than you realize.<p>OOOO, I realize you are a very dedicated man, but my question is to what? Frankly, since your children are used to this very weird arrangement, being divorced may not bother them as much as other children. I don't mean to imply that divorce would be good for them, but I do think that if you used some counseling if divorce is decided on, that they may get to see two people happily married. That may even go for your W, although I doubt it, with her control issues.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

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Sometimes people stay in loveless marriages not because they don't want to break up the family but because they've grown accustomed to their situations and fear the unknown (life after divorce). But I can tell you that I was married for 15 years and 12 of those years were with a woman who gave herself to others but not to me, her husband. I too used to say that I did not wanted to break up the family but in reality I was more afraid of beign single than anything else. So look deep inside yourself and ask yourself what really are you afraid of?<p>Joe<p>[ May 24, 2002: Message edited by: TooMuchCoffeeMan ]</p>

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OOOO,<p>I agree with JL. Not for the all the same reasons. As he points out your relationship with your W has not been normal in many ways even before her A, because you have gone so long with many unmeet needs I am afraid that you are very at risk to do the same thing your W did. Which would be worse for you to keep hoping your W will come around & you find someone else in the meantime; or ya'll just deciede to end it as it is now if your W will not agree to really work on the marriage, including talking with Steve or someone else, is time to give her the choice.<p>I believe that if you keep staying with the way things are even if they are so much better than a yr ago, that you will eventually snap & your children will be hurt worse than they would be you divorce now.<p>
BUT CALL STEVE BEFORE YOU DO ANYTING!!!!!

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OOOO,<p>I agree with the excellent adivce you were given here. Be sure that if your give her an ultimatum that you are able to follow through.
"We need to get some counseling. I want to move forward with you. I can't live like this anymore." If she says No then you should have your backup plan. If not, she knows that things will stay the same. She's the dictator in this relationship.<p>On the other hand (I know, maybe tooooooo optomistic), since the schedules are different, you could move back into your room. She has the opposite sleep schedule of yours, why not? Wouldn't it be nice to sleep in your bed again? Take your own covers, like before. On the weekend, have your own covers and let her deal with it. The worst thing she can do is say that she can't handle it and for you to move. I say this because my H and I slept under seperate covers for years. Not because we didn't like eachother but because one of us was always colder than the other. This bad habit led to less physical contact and we were so used to it that it was awkward to even be under the same covers anymore. This wasn't our original intent.
Your wife is very slow in making progress. Maybe she can't bring herself to say that you can come back to the room. I don't know, she has so many issues and rules. Try it. No sexual overtures and see what happens. Can it possibly be any worse than it is?

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<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:
<strong>Thank you JL,
I know maybe it is time for me to do something or to make certain decision about this whole mess. But before I decide to let go, I have to find the way to talk to her once and for all, heart to heart and see what she has to say. Since she has just got this new job less than a week ago, I don&#8217;t want to get to the talk yet. Maybe and just maybe, I might bring this up after the kids&#8217; school is over in mid June. <p>In term of the kids seeing us together or not, I don&#8217;t think they even see that as something unusual at all. They got used to it already (that&#8217;s unfortunate). We are still doing something together over the weekend, but only after my wife wakes up and has breakfast around noon. By then I get ready to eat my lunch and the only activity that might end up doing together is to drive the whole family to my in-laws for dinner (as usual). The same pattern happens on Sunday, except the dinner part. I end up doing my laundry on Saturday and she ends up doing her laundry and the kids on Sunday. Then the whole cycle begins again when weekday comes and then weekend.<p>JL, I know you have told me before that it is time for me to move on with my life. But for some strange reasons that I couldn&#8217;t explain or might not even know myself that I couldn&#8217;t bear to break my family apart, especially my kids. <p>JL, I think you might be right on this, but somehow I&#8217;m still in denial on this. Maybe my own &#8220;fog&#8221; is thicker than I thought that I might not even know it. Besides, I don&#8217;t even know how long she would last on this new job because it isn&#8217;t quite the right job for her yet. I could be wrong on this but I want her to have a real permanent job before I take any action. <p>So what do you think? How about a heart to heart talk for one last time? But what should I say to her? How do I bring it up?</strong><hr></blockquote>

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OOOO,
Hello! This is my first time visiting this forum, sp please forgive me if I am not following any standard protocal in responding to this thread..
I have just read every single post in it and am compelled to add my 2 cents worth if I may.
I am trying to put myself in your wife's shoes (from how you describe things) and in yours as well. From HER point of view, why should she be willing to go to counseling, be intimate with you or even be willing to change a thing? She already is getting to do as she pleases, has the final say in everything and is getting all of her needs met. In other words, she is getting her cake and eating it too.
You on the other hand, are the one who is paying the price.. You sound like a very nice man, reasonably intelligent and a good father. BUT, as kindly as I can possibly say this, it seems as though you have your head buried very deep in the sand.. You seem to be in total denial of the reality of the situation. Take off your rose colored glasses. She does not want YOU, but only what you can provide for her. Hell yes, it hurts to admit it! It also sounds like you are almost hiding behind the nobility of doing right by the kids by staying, keeping the family intact, when in fact, the children are learning (whether you want them to or not) that marriage is a loveless thing, that it is normal for the parents to be indifferent to each other and that marriage means being miserable.. Have you really taken a good look at what your broken marriage is teaching them about life, marriage and relationships?
I say all this because your marriage is almost identical to what my parents was when I was a child. I never talked to my parents about it, but I learned by what they didn't say and by their actions... There were four of us kids and we all learned the same. Between us four children, as adults now, we have 16 marriages and divorces between us! Yes, we did indeed learn alot about how to have a bad relationship, how to not be very loving, and how to hang onto something emtionally unhealthy and unstable and how to be a doormat. The good news is that I went to counseling after my 5th divorce and have slowly learned what a GOOD relationsip is supposed to be like. Don't do this to yourself! Quit being a doormat. Try to regain some teeny bit of self worth and just do the right thing for yourself and your children and quit telling yourself that someday it will all be better (your marriage) You are no closer to it getting better than you were 12 years ago! Hopefully, maybe separately, you and her will find someone that makes you happy and your children can finally start to learn all the positive things that come from marriage.
Becki

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Thank you Just Learning, TooMuchCoffeeMan, gabes_mom, sing, Cleopatra, Scorpioforu for your insightful opinions.<p>I just wonder if I should start another post related to the following info:<p>During this holiday weekend, both of my kids left early for a day trip out of town. This was the first time they went somewhere without us for an all-day trip. So I took an opportunity to ask my wife point blank if we could spend time in bed together without the kids being here with us. She told me that the doctor discovered something in the tissue of her private area during the routine check-up a few months ago and that she was waiting for the result of the test within the next 3-4 weeks. She said that she might have to go back and do another check-up six months from now to make sure that there is nothing wrong with it. <p>I didn’t know what to say to her at that moment but continued to listen to what she had to say. In my head, the only thing I could think of was STD. Could it be possible that she got this from having sex with the OM? Or could it just be a coincident? She didn’t say that she wouldn’t want to have sex with me, but she couldn’t because of this (my interpretation). She didn’t get angry about it. But sex is not the only thing I want; I want to be loved, to be wanted, and to be in intimacy with her as a couple. Somehow that’s still a distance away.<p>One thing that has changed from the past month or so was that she put the wedding rings back on again. Could it be because she returned to work? I don’t really know. But whenever we went out for just the two of us, I noticed that she dressed up a little and the wedding rings were still on (that’s the good sign so far).<p>So what do you think? Should I ask her for more info about what has been discovered by the doctor?

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OOOO,<p>Most definitely ask her for more info! Let her know that you are very concerned about her health. 3-4 weeks is quite a while to wait. Is it possible to get the results any earlier? Please don't mention any concerns about STD's at this point.
When she said that in response to your request you should have told her that you were not expecting that and just being close would be fine with you(showing her that it would be a non threatening event). After all, it has been a long long time.<p>My wedding rings are important to me, I would take her wearing them as a good sign. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]

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Cleopatra,
Well, I haven’t had a chance to talk to her about it yet. But she did tell me a little about it. She said that during the routine check up, the doctor just found something but there was nothing to be concerned about it. The doctor just wanted to make sure with more tests. She said she didn’t feel any pain nor any discomfort at all. That’s all the info that she’s told me so far. <p>Cleo, you are right. I should have told her that all I wanted was just to be closer together in bed (nothing more). But at least her reaction didn’t turn out to be in a negative direction. <p>In term of moving back to claim my bed again, I don’t know about that yet. The thing is she returns home from work around 11:30pm. In a nutshell, that’s her normal (rather early) bedtime anyway. For me, since I go to work early in order to be home with the kids after school, my bedtime is around 10:00pm. To me, her new work hours didn’t seems to help me at all. I mean in term of family activities. I end up doing everything again, only this time without her help. I think working from 3:00pm to 11:30pm you miss out evening activities, especially summer time. Don’t you think so?

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Good luck, OOOO. Good to see you here.<p>I would ask her about her trip to the doctor. Just as a concerned friend would. If nothing else, it shows that you are concerned.<p>Take care.
HBC

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Hmmm... Wow!
I don't know, OOOO... I think your talk with your W was good. BUT, I think she evaded your question pretty cleverly. Did I read it correctly that she didn't allow you to sleep together with her??? Because of her pending test--"that was nothing to worry about?" Clever girl to evade the question.<p>It seems to me like your wife is faking it and making it. Wearing her ring is probably HER way of avoiding the appearance of being single. I think SHE is the one who is afraid of being single again. MORE than you might be! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I could be wrong making assumptions about your wife, only she can say for sure why she stays in a marriage where there is no passion. [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img] However, it seems to me that she may already feel like the bad guy because of the A, and if she filed for divorce she would TRULY BE the bad guy and maybe she just doesn't want to live (all the way) up to that image????? Maybe???<p>From what I have read here, even repentant WS's have difficulty forgiving themselves and it is a process they go through just like BS's overcoming resentment is a process... You may never dredge these feelings out of your wife, but it would be nice if you could.<p>If you are afraid of her tho, you will never get your questions answered. If you are afraid of your wife, your love for her is not mature! "Perfect love casts out all fear." If you are afraid of her, you don't see yourself as her equal, but as inferior. Why is that???<p>How come you can't straight out say, "I want to be affectionized and I want to be wanted. I am not sure how much longer I can thrive in a loveless marriage with no intimacy whatsoever?! I'm DYING!" Are you afraid she will tell you to file for divorce? Is it that you wouldn't want to give her the opportunity to say something like that? It's not an ultimatum, just stating your feelings.

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