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Joined: Oct 2000
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Adrian Offline OP
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I'm writing this in a state of total shock and depression, so please bear with me, I need someone, anyone, to talk to me now ....

Sorry, I'm probably going to babble, since I'm not composed at all. I'll try to resume in short past 5 years of my life since the first D Day, with OW1. Compared to what happened afterwards, OW1 was harmless flinge - that R stopped almost immediately after DDay, infact H told me himself he was seeing someone when it was already over and he dealt with it in his head. It was that he recognised emotions for someone else, and was all confused about that - the OW also told him he mixed up things, she wanted to be friend with him but he was sorta falling for her, so she broke it up and did NC on him. We had a great marriage before that, very close, honest and loving relationship... I was so shocked learning about the A, that I slammed the door two weeks after D Day and said I wanted D. H did everything under the sun to win me back and recover, he was showering me with love and care sometimes to the extent that I just had it too much and had to tell him so. Well, two years later I got over it completely, and felt like trust and honesty turned back into our marriage - I felt safe and loved again. NOT FOR LONG, THOUGH.

Early Feb 2000, something was wrong again - just the gut feeling - H withdrew again, became distant and not always accountable for his time.
After two months, I had it enough, couldn't figure out what was going on, and decided to snoop first time in our the almost 16year long history. Soon enough, I found there is OW #2 in the picture. What happened later was beyond my worst dreams, and took me two years of life. H fell for 31 yo bull-eyed ugly bimbo, who already wrecked 2 marriages before, but was never married herself. For those who don't remeber my story, he broke completely, attempted suicide, ended up in mental hospital for 1 month, and left home afterwards, to live in BIL's appartment for 7 months, allegidly to find out what he wants. He never stopped contact with me and D.

Dec 2000, OW2 was diagnosed stage 3c ovarian cancer, had radical surgery and chemos. Now she's doing fine, but is only some 14 months in remission. God knows what future brings for her. H returned home early Feb 2001, and although working with OW #2 I thought we were doing some progress. Untill last week, he was mostly accountable for his time, was on time from work, spending more and more of weekends and free time with me and D. He was doing carpentry at home (that's what he always liked) and giving more effort to M - at least I thought so. However, you know that gut feeling - I just knew something was wrong again, and I couldn't prevent myself from snooping again.

He knows I'm a computer expert, but oddly enough he didn't make it very hard for me to find out that he has secret e-mail account (had printout of one of her messages in his bag!) I tried my lucky guess - and Bingo! - he used the same password as for the one I knew for (the one he gave me a password for, now I know that was fake attempt to be honest)! What I found there was soooo disturbing I couldn't sleep the whole night. Hot, sexy messages, her pictures, and pretty detailed description what they would like to do to each other! He saved ALL his replies too, so I could track everything! From what I read, it doidn't turn to PA yet, simply because they had no chance to make it by now (seems it started very recently), but they both expressed they hope it's going to happen soon and are very much looking foreward to that! And, yes, again, it is a co-worker: 3 OWs, all from the same company (and it is a Government institution!)

I forwarded all mails to my account, printed it out and saved. My first urge was to confront H and kick him out immediately when he came home Thursday evening, just two hours after discovery. I didn't, and pretended to be normal, only because I wanted to have some more info. Now I do: she's married, with kids (don't know how many), and according to my friend who knows her, enjoys when she can turn men's heads. She offered herself very openly to my H, and my friend says she even showed up once on their colleague's funeral in mini-skirt and tiny shirt that looked more like underware. Well, I know her address, cell phone #, but not her H's name (she might be living with MIL and FIL, so the name to which is the phone registered could be her FIL's, not H's.)

H is on a business trip till Sunday late evening, but he goes for another one immediately next morning (abroad) and will be away till Friday 20th Sept, 11 pm. I thought I should confront him and kick him out this time, maybe already now on Sunday, send copies of e-mails to her H, and a very cynical e-mail to her, letting her know that I know for them. I think that he thinks he can get away with it easily because I already had forgave him twice and did my best to rebuild marriage. Is it time now to really play tough game and make him learn the hard way?? Now I recognise a pattern in his behaviour, he's very attracted to mind games and can be easily seduced by someone who is good on words and mind games. Although hes almost 39, he is still immature, acting like a teenager, and I'm beginning to think it's simply a character flow I cannot do much about, only to decide can I live with it or not. Oh yes, and he is a big time conflict avoider.

In this past 18 months after separation, he mentioned divorce only once, almost a year ago, in very angry state, but never moved forward with it. Now he openly says he feels good and happy at home and doesn't want to leave, in past year he was investing into new house appliances, repairing, and was making plans for our future. If I mentioned I feel insecure about his contacts with OW2, he kept telling me "Will you ever stop thinking about it? Let go, there's nothing there any more, and you're going to torture yourself with that until you decide to stop. I'm here, don't you see it?"

On the other hand, I kept stumbling on small, sometimes bigger lies - all the time. And honesty is my EN No.1.

If I had to describe our M now (until new discovery), I could honestly say it was more of a good than bad. And yes, I still want it. But I cannot live with lies, dishonesty and disrespect any more, that will kill me very soon.

If I divorce now, I will be in serious financial trouble, and most probably will not be able to support myself and D. With two salaries we can make it. Not easily, but we can. D is fully on my side, she's almost 15, and wants to stay with me.

Thank you for reading such a long post.

Please, help me with your thoughts.

Love,
Adrian

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Adrian, I vaguely remember your story.

Well, there is absolutely nothing you can do to change him...but you know that. Are you thinking full-on D right now..or the possibility of seperation until..of if..he seeks professional help and gets his act together.

It's really all in your court right now. You made changes to strengthen your side of the relationship..why should he get to slide on his?

I understand all too well the fear of financial difficulty, having been divorced with 3 young kids..it IS hard...if seperated legally, financial matters such as child support can be included.

Mostly, I'm just sorry you've had your trust blown away again...it's just too much.
Hugs,
T

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Adrian,

I'm so sorry you are going through this AGAIN. I don't feel like I can give much advice right now, but my first thought would be to go to Plan B. Seems like you are living with a "cake-eater" to me. Just my thoughts (remember I'm a newbie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) - I would try Plan B and tell him that he has to go into some type of counseling with or without you before you will even think about forgiving him this time. I'm sorry, but this brings to mind the three strikes rule to me. I don't think I would immediately go to D though. That's your decision though and I'm sure some of the "long-timers" will be able to give you better advice than I can.

Just wanted to let you know that I'm here and I'm listening (reading) so holler if you just want to vent. Please take care of yourself.

With love,

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Don't have time to talk, I'll get back with you later.

Just know you can come here and let it all out over and over- people on this forum are godsends when it comes to lending an ear.

Love and prayers go out to you-

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Thank you Dumpling, Twyla and k9love, for being there for me. I do need support, big time now. Here I have nobody but my D and one close friend (male, like a brother to me, I know him almost all my life), who is married and I just feel it wouldn't be right to call him on weekends, just because I badly need to talk. If my house is burning down ... well, that would be a good reason to call, any time...

I'm not composed at all, not even today, 4 days after discovery. I feel very depressed, my moods swings ups and downs in a matter of hours, even less, I go from crying my eyes out to being very angry and just wanting to kick his sorry [censored] out -the sooner, the better... then I think of good times, recent ones too, after A#2, and there I am - crying again...

As Steve H. says, "too bad to stay, too good to go", that is how I still feel about our M. I was ready to compromise for many things to save this marriage, but not for love and honesty. Those two are bricks I desperately need to rebuild M, as I need air to breathe. If he doesn't love me - what use of my love for him; if there's no honesty - I have no bricks to rebuild trust .... I just don't know ...

I think I'm still not ready for D, my love bank is not totaly empty but there's very little left. The hard part is that H puts a little into it every now an then, just enough to keep it a bit above ground zero - sure enough, I hook to that every time. But I can't settle for as little as just "I'm here, and I have no intention to leave. You should be happy, you won, don't you see it?". In my book now, it reads as "I'm fine and feel cosy here, I have clean shirts and warm meal, my computer and my plane kit models to play with ... ok, and you and D ... if I need you."

The same impression I get when I read H & OW3 e-mail correspondence - there's no talk of love, or getting together some day (she's married too), just fun, physical attraction, mind games ending in associations on sex ... and philosophycal arguments about moral and ethics - is it right or wrong what they're doing...

My best friend thinks I should just ignore it, and take care of important things for me - my daugter and my postgraduate study -
which, if I complete it soon, could help me get a better job and salary and consequently, enable me a better position to make choice. He says this A is far less dangereous than the previous one, and if I leave now, I can only harm my options and put myself in very difficult situation re. time for study, money, place to live etc. This time, he said, you have a much smaller pill of pride to swallow. And you have to think of your D.

In a way he's right, but I don't know if I could take it any longer. I already feel as being a doormat, and if this continues, I'm showing my H a clear sign he can do as he pleases and I will take any crap he makes.

Please, talk to me, and have me in your prayers.

Love,
Adrian

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Adrian,
I am a newer MBer here as well. H and I are into our first year of recovery after a few years of hell. I was WS and have been in counseling with and with out H for about two and a half years.
I just trying to give you a bigger support here on which to lean. Your H sounds like he needs some intense counseling and soon! You are in a difficult place and you know that we can't make up your mind for you. I feel so bad for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I also feel like I am floundering for words, so please jusr know that I am here too, praying and hoping that you are ok.

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Dear Adrian,

Don't know what kind of advice I can give - just to say that you are not alone.

What you say about your R, and your H, reminds me of my H - 2 EA's (1st discovered 6/01, 2nd 2/02). We now seem to be "in recovery", but honesty and trust remain elusive, and I am anxious that no principles have been established to prevent a no. 3.

I have asked myself many of the questions you are asking yourself, as I am in the same position. We need 2 salaries - and I want to start a 2-3 yr postgrad course to get qualified as a librarian. I currently work in a library and I love it. We have 2 children and they love their father - I know that separation could cause serious damage to them. If I am unhappy with things, do I separate, despite the damage to the children, or do I make the best of it and look after my own self-interests?

My father, who left us when I was 12, advises me to look after my own interests, regardless of what my H does, until such time as I am able to support myself financially. I have watched my mother struggle with poverty ever since he left us and it is HARD. My mother is terrified that I will end up like her, and kick him out in a moment of agony and frustration.

My H is also quite content at home now - making building plans for the house, calling and talking to me, seems happy enough, but still retaining his cellphone and e-mail privacy - still has not talked to me or apologized about his R with both OW. Seems to want to just pretend it never happened, go on and forget about it. I am anxious because I have learned that he can compartmentalize his life, so it is entirely possible he is having a R with someone online and by TXT msg, and I would know nothing about it.

I don't know what I would do if I found an OW3, but I expect my post would read pretty much word for word what you have posted here. Its a terrible betrayal, and I think you are certainly justified in saying "3 strikes and you're out", but if you can stand it, it would be better for you in the long run to finish your course first and get the qualification you need b4 making such a move.

I am so sorry you are going through this. My heart goes out to you.

LIR

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I am so sorry to hear this. Life just is not fair.

Did you know that Dr. Harley says that if his wife ever has an affair he would divorce her? No Plan A, no Plan B, nothing? The reason why is that he feels that they are doing everything a couple can do to keep their marriage happy and healthy. If they fail, then there is nothing more to try.

IMHO, this is where you are. You have done what you know how to do. It has not worked because of your husband’s desire to have these relationships on the side. Since he has not told you that he needs more then he is getting. He has not told you that you are not meeting his needs; there is really nothing more you can do. You say that your love bank is very low. I can imagine that after this discovery it’s in the negative. All of these are indicators that it’s time to protect yourself and the little bit of love you have left.

I would agree that this is the time for Plan B. To do it quickly upon discovery would be the most affective way to do it. However, plan B is risky. You have no idea if he is going to come home.

As for sending the email, etc. to her husband, etc. Many might tell you that it’s a bad idea. I think it’s a good one. Nothing like reality hitting him square in the face. There is the possibility that the OW’s husband will kick her out and your H and she will have a chance to play around for a while. But it sounds to me like their entire relationship is based on lust. It has no foundation and your H will be left with no one to meet his needs. OW #2 is probably too needy right now to be back in the picture. I would guess that your plan B has a lot of chance for success. You would have to build in a very strict set of criteria for your H returning home.

But you will also have to prepare for divorce at the same time just in case. But here move at your own pase.

However you are in a bit of a bind financially. You need to complete school so that you can better support yourself and your children. In a divorce or separation agreement you could get your husband to give you interim support until graduation and you find a job. How long do you have to finish? I found an interesting web site, Tao of Divorce. It is a little mercenary, but it talks about protecting one’s self.

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<small>[ September 16, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

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<small>[ September 16, 2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

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<small>[ September 16, 2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

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Hi Adrian - sorry for the slow response.

I'm with zorweb for the most part. IMHO, this is what you should do:

Confront your H with your evidence and guage his reaction.

Depending on his reaction, contact the OW's H, providing the evidence, with copies to the OW . The only reason NOT to do this, I believe, is in the unexpected event your H agrees to immediate "no contact" and therapy.

Contact a lawyer and arrange for a legal separation, with the expectation of your H vacating your residence. You may not be able to force him out legally, but you can make it clear that you consider your options as a couple extremely limited. Scare the hell out of him.

As soon as you can get him gone, go to Plan B if you still want to try to salvage this at that point.

Bottom line, isolate him and look out for yourself and your D.

Keep talking to us, OK?

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I'm so sorry that you're going through this again Adrian. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I can understand how you feel. Telling yourself "if he does this again - I'm leaving!" is one thing... but actually going forth with the ACTIONS to back up those words is something else.

The suggestions on here for aiming for a plan B, IMO, are just what you need to do. I know, I know, easier said than done. But you have to figure out if you're ready to live like this for much longer. YOU are the only one who can change what's happening - no offense, but your H obviously doesn't give a damn. He's proving that by his actions with a new OW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Don't forget... moving into plan B takes some preparation. Whether or not you choose to implement those preparations can be decided upon later. Right now, you should at least get all of your information together, and create your plan so that you can move to plan B in a moments notice. I'm thinking that you should have everything ready BEFORE you confront your H. That way you can use the 'scare the hell out of him' tactic, and tell him how it's going to be (plan B or IC and MC and NC).

Please keep on sharing here. You know we're here for you. ((((((((( Adrian ))))))))))

Karen

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Adrian,

You have given a lot of advice from Z & WAT ... I am just a newbie compare to them. I agree absolutly w/ them. Remember ... God will never forsake us and HE will always provide !!!. I never thought of I made it this far w/o my WW. HE gave me strength to prove my WW wrong on taking care of my 2 D by myself for 6 months before she filed. After she filed, she plan B'ng me ... make it easier for me but financially I thought I never makes it. We never have enough for 1 household (she didn't work) now the salary have to be chop by half ... God provides a way. W/ creative financing I bought a house that I never though that I would ever get it. Seek help to look after your legal & financial right first but don't stop those from what you have to do to take care of yourself. If the Lord on my side who dare to be my enemies ?.

God Bless you. -RH-

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Dear friends,

thanks for all your answers, you pointed out some very important things for me to think of. I didn't have acces to the network in past few days, it was a pure hell, now, when I desperately needed to talk.

Thanks God, here I am, with some news, both good and bad. Finally, I found a good IC for me, actually, a friend I mentioned in the first post gave me her number - first session was by telephone, we just tackled a part of the story (it's long and it takes time), but, I'll see her tomorrow afternoon. Hope it is going to help, at least for me. I honestly don't know any more is there anything else I could do for my M, I feel I've done all in my power. Now, I have to do something for myself, before I end up in mental hospital.

The bad news is OW#3 is recently divorced (again a needy one wanted to be rescued <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) with two children, both already in primary school - and she's only 26! This,of course, makes the situation more difficult, since she can do whatever she wants with no consequences, and, if decides to pursue R, she will, no doubt. I also learned that the way she communicates with my H (kisses, nicknames, a lot of associations on sex...in almost every second word )is her usual way of communication with men and that she enjoys attention she gets. Apparently, she has a boyfriend, and that is serious R.

Well, I just don't know. On a first sight A#3 really looks as far less dangereous than A#2 (BTW, I don't know the status of that one, but know for sure they didn't break everyday contact -close coworkers), but I know my H well enough to be almost sure that it would mean more to him than to her. And I'm definitely not ready for another rollocoaster, I had it enough.

And last, but not least - I spoke to H last Sunday, and told him I know about her. He smiled and said "What about her? We just had coffee two times till now. Thats all." I made clear I know much more than he thinks I do, and please don't lie again ... he insisted there is nothing more. Then I told him I read all their mails. Asked him what about seeing each other they planned when I was on a business trip - he said "And did I go?" No, but that was because you couldn't organise your time ... "There you are, she called me, but I didn't go. So, what do you want?"

As soon as I told him I read his mails, he changed his face, became distant, and obviously felt uncomfortable - mails were very hot, flirting and explicit. I asked him ok, and when are you going to reach the "practical excercise" point (their expression for having sex) - and he said "probably never". The conversation ended with his angry face, saying me probably thousandth time he cannot, and probably won't ever forgive me that night I pushed him to the edge so he attempted suicide.

He screamed that I'm after him, that I have a spy net everywhere, and he has no intention to have me all his life breathing behind his neck. And I kept trying to explain that honesty is the only thing I ask from him: you want coffee with a friend - you go, but don't lie that you're working overtime or have a presentation. Totally useless effort from my side, he's deaf. Whenever he feels pushed or confronted, he pulls that suicide thing out and his depression, keeps saying that he's not the same one as he used to be.

Maybe, probably, that's true. But, what I see is that he's that old, amusing and funny H I used to know - with everybody else but me. I consider it a dirty emotional blackmail.

Hope that councelling would give me some new perspectives. Still don't know what to do - I want my M, but don't want to end up dying inside and giving up all I ever wanted of life.

I'll get back to you with news.

Love,
Adrian

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Adrian,

Your H's threats of suicide while we are suppose to take them seriously (according to the 911 advice people) it is difficult to do because A fogheads use that tool as a psycological weapon.

When the WS in my life threatened like that (his family's personal threat mechanism - used by parents and siblings - YUCK!!!), I finally got tired of hearing it (heard it from several family members and his parents - bi-polar disorders and one child who was schizophrenic and did commit suicide). Even with all this bad background, I had to put my foot down. I reminded the WS that as long as he was out there with the OW, it was his right to take his life. I was not going to contest that but the consquences of it affected all around him. Then I babbled back, I said if the OW wants him to commit suicide and he wants to listen to her, there wasn't much I could do. I loved him but that doesn't seem to mean much to him so now he has to leave since I will not allow my child and I to watch him and OW kill himself.

That jumbled in his head for a while. He later said he couldn't do it but I already knew that. It was a scary time and I don't recommend that method but that is what I had to do.

I had to preserve my santity and keep my son and I alive.

I hope you are able to get help to keep you strong. Sounds like your H is dealing with his own demons. Get the strength to let him do so.

lhm

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I totally understand this. He can't stop himself, which is very sad. But you have done everything you can do. I am in the beginning stages of this exact situation. When we were engaged (after a year) he tried to sleep with his ex-girlfriend - she knew me and knew he was dating me, she turned him down. We married, and a year and half later - he had a mini sex affair. That ended on HER part - then a month later he started with another girl. Just found out about it all this month. I am not financially bad off, but I have a 15 year old daughter who really likes him; and I don't want to affect her in this. I guess I can live with anything for three years. I want to try anyways. I have no real advice, but say, only you can decide what is the straw on the camel's back. If you want to kick him out and quit, then the only thing I have to say is make sure you feel the exact same way about it for a week. If you feel one way one day and one way another, then you probably should wait until those feelings sort out. My therapist says do NOTHING major the first 6 months. If you do anything in anger or pain, you will probably regret it. But this is really advice to myself...


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