Ok, I said I'd post twice, but I forgot I had yet another question for the tribe:

Are you or your spouse afraid of being vulnerable? And how do you deal with it?

I have long wondered why my FWS isn't willing to open up. She also hates to go to doctors, counselors and dentists. She's very much the "get over it" type, and doesn't dwell long on feelings and hurt. I think that's what attracted me, as I'm the exact opposite.

But when you're an opposite, that means not only are you vulnerable, but you probably expect others to share your vulnerability. I know I've long wondered why my FWS is so closed lipped about any problems that come along. I also know I did more than my share of shutting her down early on by constantly exploring the topic instead of setting a plan and getting after it.

So I reasoned this out: FWS was booted from the house at 14 and told to basically make her way in life. Natural result: develop very strong defenses, shells if you will, to protect against the world. So, while she has a desire to be connected to a family unit or another person, she doesn't really know how because her vulnerability shields prevent that.
That explains the host of men she's had in her life, plus her As, and her reactions to the final A that led to more than she thought, and her desire to come home, but to also keep me at bay. All this is very textbook and very clear.

But is it my job to fix that? No, I don't think so. I think my job is to fix what I can: Me.

Why do I need her to be vulnerable? I mean, really, if she can find happiness in that mess -- and she says she can and has in the past -- then why should I be the one who's trying to "fix" her? After all, I obviously have vulnerability issues myself.
Why should I push her to open up? I can't make her do it, so why try?
Isn't it more effective to simply create a positive atmosphere for her to function in? Once comfortable, wouldn't she then possibly reach a stage where she shared her vulnerability as a natural outgrowth of the relationship?
But, maybe it's also this: Maybe her invulnerability is an asset to be treasured. If she can make things work in HER head that way -- and she says she's happy with who she is -- then why can't I accept that? Isn't the issue really my need for her to be more vulnerable?

My FWS has long talked to me about my issues. She's never withheld that. But she did start withdrawing into herself -- her cocoon -- as I began pressuring more and more and set up judgments and defenses to block her honesty. So maybe, her vulnerability is there, and I simply reinforced old habits?

Wow...can I ever relate to your wife. I was out the door at 15. I have the same type of personality. I do have a warm fuzzy side, but those closest to me are probably the last to see it...I'm not happy with that, but it's been very difficult to change. I don't know what to tell you about being vulnerable...I don't forsee that's a state of mind I'll ever find myself in. I can let down my defenses, but I'll never let down my guard. From my experiences the only people I've seen who can do that...are those that have never really been through the hell that I have. It's like you're telling someone who's recieved scarring burns all over their body to go ahead and scoot closer to the fire, it won't hurt you. Those of us who have been burned tend to think you're the one in denial ;-)

Read Passionate Marriage by Schnarch. I think you'll find it interesting and enlightening.

I probably am in denial, but I refuse to believe that. lol...
I'll give the book a look, though it goes against my better judgment that says I know everything and everyone else is wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But here's a thought: When did you let your defenses down enough to reconnect in the marriage, and what did he do to create that atmosphere of trust for you?

Chorus your wife could be a clone of my WS- he also left home at a very young age- got mixed up with a girl (they were both very young) got married- had kids etc.

He divorces her and we meet. We've been married since- nearly 22 years now. He also has the same attitude as your wife- for the longest time I interpreted it to mean he didn't "really" love me.

I don't have any answers but it's nice to know there are others in the same boat. Incidently, I have told my H that maybe since he and I had such differing personalities we shouldn't be a "couple".

I am like this--too independant. (No, I wasn't kicked out of the house when in my teens, but my parents insisted that I fend for myself.) I can and do take care of myself. I know that I am emotionally distant--I thought that it was a good thing, that I am not a woman begging for attention and affection all the time. I am beginning to understand that this is what sent my husband to somebody else. He needs to be needed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do I need her to be vulnerable? I mean, really, if she can find happiness in that mess -- and she says she can and has in the past -- then why should I be the one who's trying to "fix" her? After all, I obviously have vulnerability issues myself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chorus,

In one sense, I think we as men tend to associate vulnerability with feminism, in regards to women.

My sis and I were talking the other day, and this very subject came up. I am going to go out on a limb here and reveal some of my inner thoughts that I had told her.

I steadily dated a woman for 6 years before I married my WW when I was 27. My former GF and I never really did "break up". For some reason or another, we just drifted apart, sort of.

I say sort of, because for the first few months of us dating other people, if we by chance happened to run into each other, we WERE going to be together, if you know what I mean. For years I thought about that, and never did dwell on it long enough to really come to a conclusion.

Since my WW left and filed for DV, I have probably done more serious thinking and analyzing than I ever have. This scenario was one that I have spent a lot of time on recently.

I came up with this, in looking at my sitch....

My GF and I had some very good intimacy, and not meaning intimacy in regards to SF. When we were alone, I would have to say that was the most stress-free feeling that I have ever felt. Why? Because I sensed the "vulnerability" in her, towards me. That gave me the feeling that she had totally given herself to me, and there was absolutely 100% trust in me. In return, she got intimacy from me like no other (that sounds like bragging -- forgive me). Was she in the real world a "vulnerable" personality? No. She was a manager of a business, and very successful at that, and had to be very decisive, forceful, and demanding at times.

I look back now and see just how intelligent that she really was. She knew EXACTLY how to get me in the emotional state that she wanted me in. She put away her independent personality, and was well rewarded. She knew how to seduce me into HER way.

Anyway, I think that we want to have our partner "vulnerable" in a sense, because we (males) sense THAT as our partner having immense trust in us, at that very moment. We, in turn, sense that trust, and return it accordingly. Human nature. I truly don't think that when we, as males, are sensing that vulnerabilty in our female partner, can keep from reciprocating the effect, and that in turn cause us to show a little of the "tender" side that most females wish we had more of.

That is when its REALLY good. At least for me.

You probably didn't get a darned thing out of this post. Especially not an answer to any of your questions. But...I felt the need to share that one.

So, I think that we do not need vulnerabilty in its actual definition, but rather an immense trust at the moment, and we CALL that vulnerabilty.

My partner wasn't any less vulnerable.....

She just made me feel that I was less vulnerable. I then, became MORE comfortable.

It's funny that I am at a stage where previous R memories, are helping me through my current R desperations.

Boo

Oh, Chorus....you are asking some good questions and forcing some of us to face the music. Me. I understand your wife and can give you much insight into the mind of a person who fears vulnerability. I wish I had more time to post tonight. I'll revisit your thread tomorrow if it hasn't disappeared of the "hot list".

pendragon

"Hiding from Love" by John Townsend.

check it out.

Cali

As a former WS I say that I too was not open to being vulnerable. I felt I could take care of myself and kept a bit of a distance emotionally from my H. Since I confessed to A (my choice) I am finally feeling vulnerable with my H. I now am trusting him - strange because I was the one who betrayed his trust by having A. I am beginning to open up to him. I felt that because of the emotional distance I kept, he really didn't know me. He only knew something that was sort of me. Not sure if this makes sense to you, but I think if you are kind and loving to your W she may start to open up to you. I think that she may still be hiding behind that wall, telling herself to be strong and that everything is o.k. I hope that she can begin to feel vulnerable b/c although it's scary it's also a relief to finally feel good to open up. Praying helps.. you can pray for her and provide love to her. Eventually this may help to melt that "shell" away.

Krissee -- That's the plan. These days, she's got a good wall of "normal" life stuff around her, and with the holidays bearing down, not much reason to think that will change anytime soon. But, there are those really tiny tiny tiny cracks that appear from time to time, but it's like looking at one of those pictures where you have to stare for 20 minutes before you see the shapes hidden in the pattern. If I blink, the cracks I thought I saw disappear. And I guess that's fine, because I think the worst thing to do is find a crack and try to peel it back to get inside. She'll let me in one day, or she won't.