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#1040730 11/17/02 08:27 PM
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This is my first post although I have been visiting MB for quite some time now.

First off I would like to say Hello & Thank You to everyone here at MB. This site has been a tremendous help for me and certainly many others.

My question regards EA's that turn into PA's. I would like to know if anyone has any general info that could help me decide. Maybe differencs in WS's behaviours in a PA vs. an EA. Or the numbers of EA's that were actually PA's.

In my situation my WS has never told me anything until she knew that i had proof or was absolutely sure of something. I have always had to drag pieces of truth from her.

The thing that makes me think there was actually a PA has to do with the OM. He had just got a divorce from a marriage of seven years. This EA supposedly went on for 10-11 months. All this time the OM never had another girlfriend (and i beleive didn't even have sex with anyone). Now it seems to me that for someone to pursue somebody for that long, particularily when the pursued is in a relationship, must have been getting something physical. I mean at least a kiss or something.

The OM bought her diamond earings in May and then a diamond necklace for Christmas. Wouldn't it seem strange for someone to do these things so far apart from each other if the relationship seemed to be going nowhere? Or i should say if it seemed to be nothing more than a freindship?

I relaize it is hard to make assumptions without knowing my story, but i have not got the strength up to write the entire story yet.

Any ideas would be really helpful - I think i am going insane at this point trying to figure this out.

Thanks

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Hi Jon,

I'm not sure that I can help answer your question, but I can relate to what you are going thru. My D-day was 5 years ago and my H still denies a PA. I don't believe him and even though we've talked it to death, he won't admit it. Yet he was thinking of giving up a marriage of over 11 years (ironically, a good marriage), 4 children, and ruining everything we had for a woman that he'd never had sex with??? I just have never been able to buy that! They had plenty of opportunity and spent many hours alone, even in a hotel room once....but he claims that it never went that far.

I think that in the beginning he lied to cover his behind. And now I think that he continues to lie because he doesn't want any new revelations to come up this far into "recovery". So he sticks to his story, but my gut will NEVER beleive his story.

How long has it been since D-day? Has your W read the Harley principles on Honesty? If not, maybe give that a try. It's very hard to recover when you feel like your spouse is still covering up details of the affair. Don't get me wrong, my marriage is good considering all that we've been thru....it's just that one thing that nags at me and prevents me from regaing trust and feeling 100% recovered.

Good luck...

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Jon,

I would certainly agree with your analysis.
It is quite doubtful that the OM would give your wife diamond earings in May and a diamond necklace in December if he was not being physical with her. You wife is continuing to disrespect you if she believes that you could possibly believe otherwise and thinks you are a fool. The fact that she never admits anything until you have absolute proof is another bad sign. I think you should assume that the relationship was physical and hopefully she should be checked since this puts your health at risk. I do hope she immediately returned the diamonds. It is totally inappropriate for her to keep this diamonds.
The bottom line is that the signs indicate that it is physically. Has she stopped seeing this OM.
Your relationship will not be able to heal until she is totally honest with you and has shown you true remorse. If this is not done then you really do not have much of a foundation for your marriage or your future. I hope you both seek out counseling. If she refuses then you may wish to think about your future with or without her.
I wish you luck.

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I can really relate to this thread. Our D-day was 15 months ago...and my H STILL denies a PA. The only thing he admits to is kissing her and that they TALKED about having sex....but never actually did it. He was going to leave me for this OW and they discussed having his vasectomy reversed so they could have kids together....yuck!!!! That is a mighty serious talk to have with someone he was not being physical with if you ask me....he was willing to give up our 26 year marriage for her...but there was no sex...yeah, right!!!! We are both 46 and she is 12 years younger. He told me that he never would have divorced me, that it was just talk and meant nothing.....Every time I ask he denies and I don't know how to get him to admit what I know in my heart is true....if anyone has any ideas on that one I would be very interested....

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Hopeful Again ]</small>

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I can really relate to this thread. Our D-day was 15 months ago...and my H STILL denies a PA. The only thing he admits to is kissing her and that they TALKED about having sex....but never actually did it. He was going to leave me for this OW and they discussed having his vasectomy reversed so they could have kids together....yuck!!!! Thatis a mighty serious talk to have with someone he was not being physical with if you ask me....he was willing to give up our 26 year marriage for her...but there was no sex...yeah, right!!!! We are both 46 and she is 12 years younger. He told me that he never would have divorced me, that it was just talk and meant nothing.....Every time I ask he denies and I don't know how to get him to admit what I know in my heart is true....if anyone has any ideas on that one I would be very interested....

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Assume they had a PA, is my take on your situation.

But that's not the point. For us males the thought of a WW having a PA is a huge deal, normally. However, if it's "just an EA" it's considered "less serious".
I think women tick here a bit differently. For them, and correct me if I'm wrong, EA is the *big* thing usually. If an EA turns into a PA, that's not such a big deal (given the fact, that there is already a solid EA established).

Maybe your WW knows that it would be such a big deal for you and fears she would hurt you [even more]? Or, even thinks that the situation becomes untenable if she would open up and say "yes, I had a PA and guess what - it was much better than with you?". Scary concepts, I know, but not entirely uncommon, reading dozens of stories here.

Maybe I'm all wrong her, but that's my theory.

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Yes...as a woman, a EA is a very painful thing to me, no doubt about it....but a PA would be just as devastating to me because my H has denied it for so long. It would have been easier to deal with ALL of it on D-day instead of dragging it out over a year. Now he is probably so afraid that he would lose me if he told me that he will never admit it, and I don't know how to live without all the truth, no matter how painful.

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I agree with Hopeful that the physical part would really bother me too. But the lying all this time would just kill me...which is probably why he will never tell me. I also had to drag everything out of my H, he never volunteered anything. And the OW sure wasn't talking! I don't know if I'll ever get the whole truth. Well actually I know in my gut what the truth is....he just won't admit it!

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I don't know how my H can keep something like this to himself and live with it. I know that I could NEVER keep something like that from him. It would eat me alive. I believe in total honesty in a marriage. They say the truth always comes out...it has already been 15 months and this is something he needs to tell me before it comes out some other way. I don't want it slapping me in the face years down the road. It has already been way too long......I need to hear it, process it and deal with it so I can totally heal.

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Hopeful Again ]</small>

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Hopeful, I don't understand either how they can keep things like this from us. I have tried EVERYTHING to get my H to admit to the physical part of the affair. My H was "in love" with her, claimed that she was the best friend he'd ever had, couldn't quit seeing her, blah, blah, blah....but claims that it wasn't physical? They would spend hours at her house alone, several hours in a hotel room...and he still denies? He lied to me sooooo much after D-day about a multitude of things, and I believed him each time. But I just can't believe that it wasn't physical.

I think that in a twisted way they really believe that they are saving us from pain and saving our marriages by lying. If they only knew how damaging the lies are. Five years later and I still can't trust....it leaves a big whole in a marriage. How can we trust them if they won't trust us enough to be honest?

<small>[ November 18, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Angelface ]</small>

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bumping for more replies.....

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Bumping again for more replies....I have read time and again how common it is for the WS to say it was just a EA, and then later it comes out it was a PA....Would love to hear some more experiences and insight about this.....

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Hello Hopeful, I am new to MB but am in the throes of D day number 3 probably( I lose count)!.I have noticed that my WH seems to play down the physical contacts-he admits that they have been together if I have proof but denies the sex. Not sure why as he has already admitted it was a PA when I first found out. Seems to him its not so bad if he only admits to ongoing contact but not sex. Although it's a huge blow each time I find out about a new contact, it's the contact itself that is distressing and I just assume they do have sex. Especially as OW lives 250 miles away and so they see each other infrequently.
Not sure that helps you really!?
Deluded

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Bump........

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This probably won't help much, but it does show another perspective of the "was it PA" issue.

After my H's first affair I wanted/needed to know EVERYTHING about it (year-long EA/PA; she lived out of state so they only "connected" 2 days a month during drill weekends). I asked question after question for a long time...still do on rare occasion.

To make a long and painful story short, I ended up having an affair, too. Actualy I had a revenge ONS (which I told H I was gonna do beforehand - how twisted is that) and then had a real EA/PA. H is a cop and knows everyone in town, so of course he found out about it. I assumed he knew it was PA, but he NEVER asked any questions. Seriously. He didn't want to know any details, he just wanted to know that it was over.

Well....it ate at me for years that we'd never discussed my A and I'd never spilled my guts, so to speak. So I did it in writing 8 years later. I didn't get specific or anything, just confirmed that it was PA and how long it lasted. It was cleansing for me, but I think it was a mistake. H really DIDN'T want to know about it. He didn't ask because he didn't want to know! I simply can't fathom not wanting to know anything about a spouse's affair. Go figure.

For the record, I had to pull info from my H, too. He has NEVER admitted anything about either of his affairs that I didn't have actual proof of (except when I tricked him by saying OW#1 had spilled her guts -- btw, that only works once.)

I'm afraid I would assume your WS's affair was physical, at least to some extent. But then, I tend to be suspicious, cynical, and overly-cautious now. Have you made conversation "safe" for her? Now that some time has passed, maybe you should try another conversation with your W. Maybe if you set the stage properly by staying calm and promising not to blow-up or be vengeful if she's totally honest in her answers, then maybe she'll come clean. Or maybe you'll never hear the truth from her lips and you'll just have to assume the worst and move on.

Lori


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