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Mel:

"And again, most Christians don't believe that at all and believe the historical data says otherwise."

Perhaps. I don't think so, though. I know that many Christians do believe that.

What historical data? (we used 2 get "Biblical Archaeology" magazine, but not recently).

-2long

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2Long, its been quite a few years since I studied the geological evidence for the flood but suffice it to say, I was convinced of its existence. Especially in light of the fact that the Bible is one of the most historically accurate books we have. Archaeologists regularly use it as a guide in middle eastern archaeological digs.

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People,

Let me just say I've been around here (on the boards, I mean) waaaay longer than I ever expected to be...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Having said that, let me add I've seen "disrepectful religious discussions" around here during my time here.

People, this ain't one!!! This thread didn't really get, umm, "disrespectful" till the last page or two......

Jen is getting upset by the direction the thread is taking, and that's her prerogative, since she DID start the thread. If she doesn't want to participate anymore, THAT's her prerogative, too! But listen, everyone else. WHAT is so wrong with having a good, respectful discussion?!?!?!

We can't disagree?!?!?! Is that so terrible?!?!?! Don't ya'll know how to have a good discussion, and disagree with someone else's opinions and not get upset?? Or is it no longer a "good" discussion if someone disagrees with me? SHEESH!!!

Trust me. Sometimes I've seen these threads get REAL ugly. This one hasn't yet. I hope it never does. I've really enjoyed listening, reading and contributing to the discussion.

Just hope I have not offended anyone with my opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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Mel:

"2Long, its been quite a few years since I studied the geological evidence for the flood but suffice it to say, I was convinced of its existence."

I agree with you about the historical accuracy of the bible. I believe it's accurate 2 note that Noah is the same character as Gilgamesh.

I have a PhD in geology, and there is no geological evidence for a global flood. Period. This does NOT negate the "abolute truths" in the story of Noah.

♥2long

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I have a PhD in geology, and there is no geological evidence for a global flood. Period. This does NOT negate the "abolute truths" in the story of Noah.

s...gotta respect a phD, but geology is a Biiiiiggggg field. Anyways I recall reading and watching specials in last few years dealing with large historical flood evidence. A worldwide flood itself may be too literal an interpretation, but a flood affecting a large region, or several regions in closely in time would work, wouldn't it? Also (and I may be just dreaming here) but aren't there some theories regarding the breaching of the straigts of gibralter and createing the mediterranean sea, now that would have been a flood of Biblical proportions, especially if that area was the cradel of civilization that we speak of.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jen is getting upset by the direction the thread is taking, and that's her prerogative, since she DID start the thread. If she doesn't want to participate anymore, THAT's her prerogative, too! But listen, everyone else. WHAT is so wrong with having a good, respectful discussion?!?!?! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not upset by the direction of the thread other than the fact that I have nothing further to contribute to it. I simply am not as well versed in the scriptures as many of you here, so I choose not to continue in the biblical debate. Keep up the discussion if you like!

Oh wait, one niggling little question tugs at my mind as I read the recent posts today though...how does whether there is geological or biblical evidence of a flood relate to marriage building or infidelity or divorce?

Jen

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sufdb:

"s...gotta respect a phD, but geology is a Biiiiiggggg field."

Yes it is! Ironically, one of my specialties is catastrophic flooding! My other specialties, without going in2 any detail, pertain directly 2 being able 2 determine the former presence of large bodies of water where they are no longer present.

"Anyways I recall reading and watching specials in last few years dealing with large historical flood evidence. A worldwide flood itself may be too literal an interpretation, but a flood affecting a large region, or several regions in closely in time would work, wouldn't it?"

Yes it would, if there were evidence 2 suggest that they were closely spaced in time. But is it "necessary" 2 invoke multiple floods? After all, the Tigris/Euphrates region WAS the "world" or the center of civilization at the time of the Noah flood. A large flood in that area could easily be characterized as "a worldwide flood" by the inhabitants.

There are flood-related myths in most cultures. Some of them have clear ties 2 historic or even prehistoric events. Meaning, people were in the area at the time of the flood, even if it was a very long time ago, and there might be cultural memories of that event. The Missoula Flood of southeastern Washington State is one such event. It was huge, 2. Lake Missoula was on order of 500 cubic miles in volume, and drained catastrophically when the ice sheet that formed it by damming the Clark Fork River failed suddenly. The flood was huge, but literally a drop in the ocean compared 2 the volume of the oceans. There were several floods (maybe 50 or more), but the last of them happened over 10,000 years ago. There were similar prehistoric floods in many places in the world, notably Alaska, Idaho, the northern Great Plains, Canada, Siberia and the Baltic. Most of these are Pleistocene or early Holocene in age, though.

"Also (and I may be just dreaming here) but aren't there some theories regarding the breaching of the straigts of gibralter and createing the mediterranean sea, now that would have been a flood of Biblical proportions, especially if that area was the cradle of civilization that we speak of. "

This flood has been proposed based on undersea exploration - drilling in2 the submarine sediments in the western Meditteranean. The Mediterranean Sea may have filled catastrophically when the Atlantic Ocean overtopped the land barrier at the Straight of Gibraltar. That was millions of years ago, though. Long before human ancestors arose.

Best regards,
-2long

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Jen:

"Oh wait, one niggling little question tugs at my mind as I read the recent posts today though...how does whether there is geological or biblical evidence of a flood relate to marriage building or infidelity or divorce?"

It doesn't! ...sorry. ol' 2long is gone now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-2long

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There are flood-related myths in most cultures. Some of them have clear ties 2 historic or even prehistoric events. Meaning, people were in the area at the time of the flood, even if it was a very long time ago, and there might be cultural memories of that event.
But with Noah's flood, there weren't a whole lot of people around afterwards to discuss it and make it a "cultural memory."

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Chris:

Clearly, there were enough.

-2long

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Well, I personally sat and listened to a scientist talk on the flood. The evidence is in a museum here in Ca. near Laguna beach. Down the southern coast. I can't remember the name of city but will research if. They took the group on field trip there.
They proved that the Grand Canyon was formed over 4 or so days period. The whole canyon!
The layers are not over millions of years or thousands even. They are too similar and show having been formed over days. There was a huge tidal basin covering several states surrounding that area, when they broke, it was with such force it carved it out in days!
And yes, there is more evidence as well!
Evidence of Jericho walls also. Many other biblical events have been proven by findings.
Of course, you can always find a scientist to disagree because many are atheist, agnostics or just want to argue evidence.
But I trust the renown of the ones I listened to and seeing the evidence as well.
Someone has not studied deeply enough into the oceans as well. The huge crevices, cracks, mountains under there show evidence of huge upheavals consistent with openings with water rushing to surface causing global floodings!
Whale bones as well as other marine life fossils found on mountain tops in the world including the United states! Care to explain how a whale got on top of a mountain today?
If the PHD has not seen any evidence, I'd say you've not studied far and wide because it's tremendous.
Of course, you may also have had a teacher who preferred to overlook the factual findings and give only their narrowed view.
A degree does nothing toward the truth unless you've had someone teaching truth and not their own opinion.
BTW, most schools don't want to let Theology in!
Darwins theory is also taught. But he himself made a death bed statement he had done mankind a grave injustice!
Truth is only found by doing the deep research into many areas and not just taking someones word. Seeing with your own eyes also helps! You can't refute something so bold as fact.
LouLou

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Okay, so here this thread is taking on a new focus, and that is whether the flood(s) described in the bible really happened, and is there scientific proof, and this obviously has nothing to do with marriage, BUT, 'ol 2long, don't run away yet. I am human, I am curious! I want to hear your PhD thoughts on the formation of the Grand Canyon, etc. Four days???

Jen

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LouLou:

Oh heck. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Now you got me going! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Understand that I harbor no ill feelings 2 people of faith (more properly "religious faith" because I have faith). We're all down here trying 2 figure stuff out and live honorable lives 2 the best of our abilities. However:

"They proved that the Grand Canyon was formed over 4 or so days period. The whole canyon!"

I've independently "proved" 2 myself that the layers in the canyon walls are as much as 2 or 3 billion years old, and that the canyon itself is relatively "modern", having been carved in the past few million years at most.

"They are too similar and show having been formed over days."

Well, they're certainly not that similar. There are terrigenous as well as marine sediments alternating through time. Most of the Canyon sediments are fine-grained, indicating deep water deposition or long term wind-blown sand accumulation.

"And yes, there is more evidence as well!
Evidence of Jericho walls also. Many other biblical events have been proven by findings."

This is true. But not in the Grand Canyon. Mostly in Iraq.

"Of course, you can always find a scientist to disagree because many are atheist, agnostics or just want to argue evidence."

This is also true. But I think you'll find that MOST scientists are very religious people. And few religions, other than fundamentalist ones, have difficulty reconciling an ancient Earth with their religious beliefs. I consider myself a "spiri2al atheist", though probably inaccurately, but I was raised in a Christian religion. I probably am not even agnostic anymore, but I'm not a "member" of any particular church. Arguing evidence, though? It's ac2ally productive for scientists 2 argue (or debate, to be more precise) their observations and data. It isn't supposed 2 be emotion-based. It isn't for me, at least. The world and all that's in it is just 2 fascinating 2 get bogged down in vindictive arguments.

"But I trust the renown of the ones I listened to and seeing the evidence as well. "

You are entitled.

"Someone has not studied deeply enough into the oceans as well."

Someone? Who? I did.

"The huge crevices, cracks, mountains under there show evidence of huge upheavals"

Yes.

"consistent with openings with water rushing to surface causing global floodings!"

No.

"Whale bones as well as other marine life fossils found on mountain tops in the world including the United states!"

I'm not aware of whale bones on mountains in the US, but there are certainly marine fossils on mountains, including Mount Everest.

"Care to explain how a whale got on top of a mountain today?"

Plate tectonics. The mountain wasn't there when the whale died.

"If the PHD has not seen any evidence, I'd say you've not studied far and wide because it's tremendous."

I've studied far and wide, and there is a tremendous amount of evidence 2 be found. None of it supports a global flood, though.

"Of course, you may also have had a teacher who preferred to overlook the factual findings and give only their narrowed view."

I'm sure we all have. In school and in church.

"A degree does nothing toward the truth unless you've had someone teaching truth and not their own opinion."

True.

"BTW, most schools don't want to let Theology in!"

This isn't so much because it's not a worthwhile thing 2 do as: who's flavor of theology would you propose be taught in schools?

"Darwins theory is also taught. But he himself made a death bed statement he had done mankind a grave injustice!"

This isn't true. Go here for more information: http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/blurbs/darwin-deathbed.html

"Truth is only found by doing the deep research into many areas and not just taking someones word. Seeing with your own eyes also helps!"

This is correct.

"You can't refute something so bold as fact."

True. I don't.

regards,
-2long

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2long, You are entitled to your own belief. I still believe what I saw and heard explained.
I'm not a scientist, but I did see the evidence of the Grand Canyon. Like your belief and study there are those still who disagree.
But it made more sense to me with the huge tidal basins breaking loose than millions of years formation since I also believe the earth to be no more than 6,000 yrs old!This of course, has not been proven. So I take the bible as fact and based on the historical period covered there. I do take everything the bible says as the true word of God. God doesn't make mistakes, so he wouldn't trust his word to be translated, written and kept alive by someone who would twist it or delete or change it to suit.
I wish I had a tape of the speech, maps, graphs, geological studies, etc to share here.
But there was proof of formations from bottom to top being consistent with the 4 day period.
Since I read approximately 250 to 300 books a year, it's very hard to recall every book title where I find evidence or someones evidence given. Or the names of people I attend their seminars or speeches.
I digest, keep what matters most, delete the spam and move on to another profound subject.
This may not be a thread on Marriage, but I find it quite fascinating and interesting to read others views.
Without any disrespect for others religion or lack of.
LouLou

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P.S. there is so much historical data out there it would take you a year probably to research it all or longer!
Those who have spent their whole lives researching for such data or proof.
In fact, many scientist who were not believers in God, are now due to findings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Something good came from it anyway!
LouLou

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Is HIS seconds the same as our seconds ?. Just asking <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . It is too slow at plan A/B .... -rh-

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ladylou, I have read some of the materials you refer to, unfortuneately for the most part it is not good science...and I am as fundamentalist as you can be. But I also have a brain, that God gave me to use. If the earth is 6000 years old in actual "years", then God has deliberately arranged for geologic evidence to appear billions of years old. He certainly has the power to do so, one can only wonder why....but the fact of the matter is we have applied out brains to uncovering and applying the physical laws that govern the reality we inhabit...and those laws are unequivocal. Further we can apply those laws to our benefit, such as predicting where we will find oil, minerals, fossils and such. Or dating different geologic time periods which help us understand the nature of our biosphere/ecosphere...or identify ancient climatological conditions, magnetic field variations etc. etc. Perhaps God has arranged the enviroment we live in to seem much older so we can learn and apply natural law, I don't know. But whether or not 6000 years = 4 billion years or not is of no consequence...we "know" the ages of things and can apply this knowledge in helpful ways....the real truth will be revealed in due time in another reality.

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Hi Jen - I just wanted to stop the geologic clock long enough to see how you are doing and what's been happening with your husband?

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Sufdb, Yes, I have a lot of questions when I get there. LOL
That's one reason I'm convinced God will give us instand knowledge. Would take eternity to answer all my ?.
I do know God can make it look anyway he wishes. Such as geological changes to give us Oil, coal, whatever. A thousand years is as a day and vice versa.
LEN

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Redhat, Gods timing is nothing like ours as you know. LOL Wouldn't it be nice if we could change the whole universe in days?
In the end, it has nothing to do with us getting there. Just different points of view and many theories.
We can all get the answer with God one day. LOL
LOULOU

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