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Joined: Jan 2002
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I agree with, Ark.

I'm not a prude by ANY means, but I feel there's a big difference between "adventurous" and plain ole disrespect. IMO, there is no respect in BDSM; and s*x without respect is not healthy for a marriage.

As I said, that's just my opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Lori

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What I also find interesting is that ex-H has said that OW is naive and innocent. I'm leaning towards thinking that statement came from another part of his anatomy and not his brain.

Disrespectful judgment? You betcha!

Jo

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

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I'm sorry, but WHAT A SKANK!

Yeah, to each their own, but she's not only into kinky sex, but she is also a mistress. She truly is lacking morals something fierce!

See, it's unreal skanky women like this that make REAL women feel like we're prudes!

She's not just sexually aware -- she's SKANKY.

You can be sexually aware and enjoy sex and appreciate it and be fulfilled and all that without having to advertize it. She's got some serious emotional problems...and she's a skank too. Did I already mention that?

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Jo,

I do know that name of the dominatrix involved. would it be unethical for me to point it out? Don't worry, I won't.

Ya' know what?

I am so impressed with you I can hardly stand it. I am reading along on this post,and everyone is agreeing with you and then I read the reply from Ruoy and I freeze. I am thinking about how is reply is going to hurt your feelings b/c he talked about how it can bring a couple closer together to expericene these things yada, yada...

I was waiting for you to lambast him (in your own ladylike way) and you were ok with it! It didn't seem to hurt you at all. What the heck happened here? Did you heal and not tell me? If so, how the heck did you manage that?

Jo, you are different, you really are. You were always great, don't get me wrong, but we were all (as much as I hate this word) kinda bitter. You just sound good, you're looking at this horrid book with interest rather than pain...I paid a lot of money to a shrink that told me that when I can do that I will be well on my way to true recovery.

I do go on...sheesh.

Love to you Jo and congrats!

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Well hi Allison, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I couldn't have received a better compliment, thank you. Brought me to tears cuz, as you well know, this all has been so hard.

I have to be honest, I was a bit hurt reading what good 'ole Ruoy wrote, but it was just a bit, not much more than that ... and then I remembered that I wouldn't trade where I am right now in my life to be in a relationship with ex-H and don't envy the type of sexual relationship he has with OW (and here I am celibate too! lol) .... I do not doubt in any way that OW has serious psychological issues. I had the opportunity to experince that first hand, remember?

I'm still hurt and I'm still occasionally angry, Allison. Just ask Lora ... LOL. But I must be moving ahead and healing because here I am asking what to expect from a NORMAL sexual relationship wondering if all men, or a great percentage of them, expect or need what my ex-H obviously did and didn't tell me. I'm doing research LMAO ..... watch out men!

How are you doing anyway? Lora extended you an invite to come stay with either her or I, or both, during the time your ex-H marry's barfy OW. You thinking about it?

Love,
Jo

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 05:29 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

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Well...

I just checked and flights are about $300 round-trip. I'd fly into the Seattle airport, right?
The only thing that would mess me up is the timing of the sale of my house. Let me give this a little more thought. I'm just not sure if ex is leaving right away for honeymoon - it's his weekend with the kids - but if he takes off right away I'd need to be home for them.

Let me ponder this for a few days and run it by kids and b/f and see if ex is going to be around for a day after his big event.

I'd love to see you both.
Lora, thanks for thinking of it.
allison

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I have no expertise in this area (BDSM). But I do have an opinion about human sexuality....(don't have an opinion about yours though since you haven't revealed it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

First the notion that anything goes between consenting adults is "ok", is ignorant. This presupposes all adult human beings are psychologically/emotionally healthy and capable of making "good" (meaning life enhancing) decisions all the time. This is obviously wrong...the landscape is littered with dysfunctional people of all flavors, why wouldn't this include people who "consent" to unhealthy sexual activities?

IMO healthy sexuality can be defined, and any sexual behaviour can be assesed as to whether it enhances or diminishes the human condition (and discussed accordingly). That makes your question Jo, right on target. Aside from the primal drives of procreation (and the hardwired pursuit/submission strategies of males and females), IMO sex is about building intimacy. The physical component of a triad. Emotional safety, psychological compatibility, and physical vulnerability. The common thread being the nurturing of one's partner. Without writing a book here, suffice to say that sexual activities that "feel" good, AND do not diminish or disrespect your partner make sense. BDSM may "feel" good (more on that in a minute), but it clearly does not foster desireable psychological goals. Whether someone "willingly" participates is not the test (heck drug addicts "willingly" participate all the time), why someone wants to be hurt, or in a power focused condition is the issue....and IMO means the participants are sexually expressing serious psychological deficiencies.

As for "feeling" good. Lots of things feel good, but when done without consideration for well-being, or in excess, can be ill-advised...the most obvious example being eating and it's consequences. Eating hot fudge sundaes feels really good, but eating very many of them will have undesireable consequences. I think the same applies to all "normal" human needs, such as sex, control, vanity (admiration, grooming) etc.

Back to you jo, re the site, had the feeling to me of a focus on sexual excess, always seeking the greater thrill, or excessively celebrateing normal sexual feelings (such as pursuit, or lust, or vulnerability). IMO had your H expressed an interest in such thing, accomodateing would not have been ok, psychological counselling would have been...to find out why he needs aberant behaviour to express his sexuality. IMO sex should never be about power, disrespect, demeaning, pain....

As to whether males or females are more attracted, I don't know...but I would imagine such beahviour is heavily populated by messed up people...and that a certain % of females are pressured into these activities fearful of losing their partners.

Rouy post about powerful people seeking release from pressure by submission was interesting, and may be true, but this is not a healthy way to address such an issue. There are many acts of service available to those who wish to not be in control which are healthy and have good outcomes.

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Broken record here: I don't want to get involved with what two consenting adults do in their own bedroom, so I don't have a problem with the site, per se. It's not my bag, and I'm not into pain, but I know some folks who are, and they find like-minded people to play with, so no harm, no foul, as far as I'm concerned.

What I do have a problem with, especially when talking about infidelity, is when one spouse suddenly takes a turn into something totally foreign to the marriage and then expects the other spouse to comply.

Jo, is that what happened in your marriage? Along with the other things (like the groupies, etc.) that we know about...

Anyway, I did click on the link, and won't ever go back, but it was interesting... if "interesting" is the right word. Yipes!

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by sufdb:
<strong>First the notion that anything goes between consenting adults is "ok", is ignorant. This presupposes all adult human beings are psychologically/emotionally healthy and capable of making "good" (meaning life enhancing) decisions all the time. This is obviously wrong...the landscape is littered with dysfunctional people of all flavors, why wouldn't this include people who "consent" to unhealthy sexual activities?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I understand what you're saying in relation to unhealthy relationships, I would argue that one man's "healthy" is not another's.

Some folks might find it healthy to always be in the missionary position and turn the lights out... and I know of some women who refuse to give oral sex - ever - they think it's amoral and disguisting... others roll play and have fun during sex... still others I know have sex every night whether they want it or not... which, if any (or all) are dysfuntional?

... and you're right, the world *is* litfered with dysfuntion, but I won't label in the same way you might.

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</small>

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Not knowing which book is hers, I’ll just comment on what I there…. Humans can sexualize anything. And some people have emotional problems that make them never feel satisfied. They keep pushing the limits hoping that the next level will provide the excitement and fulfillment they need. The problem is that nothing will. So the level of experimentation and desires for (what do it call it?) ‘extreme sex’? keeps going up.

I am not a prude at all. Nor is my H. But one thing that we have both learned is to concentrate on the caring and loving part of SF. We strive to enhance that as much as or more then the wildness of our SF.

I find most of what is on that web site to be offensive and totally void of any like of love and caring. Hedonistic is a good word for it.

And yea, what sufdb said so I won’t pontificate when he’s done such a good job of it.

I found the book that describes a rape to be disgusting… to present a rape as sensual or erotic is sick, really sick. The writing is sophomoric. Shoot maybe I could get into a new line of work. Even I could spew out junk that poorly written.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I understand what you're saying in relation to unhealthy relationships, I would argue that one man's "healthy" is not another's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, I can get into a bit of role-playing. It’s fun. So I can see where some very low level (BDSM) might be fun. But again it’s what crosses the line?

I personally have a very hard time ‘playacting’ rape and/or slavery. Just what I want … to teach a man that rape is ok and fun… sick. Rape is a real life horror. I do not get playing with it. And I have a real issue with slavery too.. another real life horror. When I think of playing the part for that nothing erotic comes to mind… I only see the thousands and women and children who even today really are sex salves around the world. It’s a real issue. So again it teaches people that it’s ok to enslave and abuse someone. Children play act the things they are learning…. Adults are nothing more then taller children. I know, some people will think that I’m weird seeing is this way. That I cannot separate out reality from fantasy. But I’ve experienced rape.. I do not need to play act it. And as a child I lived in Ethiopia, where there were slaves and harems. (Believe me the women in those harems are slaves. They have no free choice about anything.) I say the young girls and women first hand. It’s not something that I take lightly.

Yes what is “healthy” or one person may not be for another. But let’s face it some things are just not healthy.. there are some absolutes in this world.

Every time I hear about BDSM I think of a young lady I knew years ago who was into it. She used to walk around with cuts and bruises. She would go on and on about how she got them and how it turned her on. IMO a person who confuses pain with pleasure has some serious problems. That was sick and unhealthy.

Jo, IMHO the lady is sick.

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