My W and I have pretty much decided to separate, with me moving out of our house so she and our (her) daughter can still have a place to stay.

This has raised some terrible questions with me, and I'm hoping someone with experience here can possibly answer them.

We bought the house in both our names, before we were married. And since day one, I have paid for the entire mortage payment while my W (who works and receives generous child support) has paid for everything else except my car payment and my credit card. Unequal, to me, but fair, according to her. But that's another story. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So... If I move out, with my name still on the title, what do I do to protect myself from a legal and financial standpoint? Do I trust that she will be able to pay for the house each month? I don't doubt that she will, but it will depend on her wealthy parents helping her out, which is probable I would say - at least for a while. Obviously if the house falls into arrears, with my name on the title, I will be held responsible too.

So, my W seems to think she can refinance, with her parents co-signing, and get my name off the title. That's all well and good, but what if we decide to get back together someday? In all honesty, I take this as a sign that "we're through", but I'm leaving with the idea to give us some space to think and reflect on things.

My major problem is, I cannot pay for the house AND pay for an apartment for myself. I've already told her that when I move out, I'm not making the next month's payment.

On top of all this, of course, is the problem of the equity in the home. My W offered me half of the remaining home equity loan so I'd have some money to buy furniture and stuff - $5,000. Now, what I could do - and was going to do until my W broke down crying about her and her daughter having nowhere to live - is contact a lawyer, who I believe would suggest that I make my W sell the house, and we split whatever equity is leftover between us. I'm not ever sure, quite honestly, if that will be more than the $5,000 she has offered me to take. So I could put her through all that and not even realize as much money - and my W is then left to fend for herself. I'm not a pushover here - I told her that while I care about her, I also need to look out for my best interests, and she understood. But at the same time, I am left in the unenviable position of being a complete jerk if I do that do my stepdaughter. Move out of the school system in mid-year, etc.

As you can tell, I have a ton of questions here, and I'm not sure what to do or what approach to follow.

How did some of you handle separating if you happened to go through that?

Secondly - did separating work for you? Am I simply being played the fool here by leaving? Should I put my foot down and try to work things out even though my W doesn't want to literally see me around right now? For those interested, my rather graphic story is here:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=026463

Thank you for reading, and helping. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My W and I have pretty much decided to separate
Why separate?

If you have not read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr Willard Harley, you should do so.

Also, read all the links below.

I suggest you call Marriage Builders and get an appt with Steve or Jennifer Harley.

<small>[ January 21, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>If you have not read "Surviving An Affair" by Dr Willard Harley, you should do so.

Also, read all the links below.

I suggest you call Marriage Builders and get an appt with Steve or Jennifer Harley. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you very much Chris. I have been reading Plan A/B for the last ten minutes, and while I have a long way to go, I understand why you implored me to go there, and I most definitely should have gone there first.

Here's the major problem with MB to me - and I went through this the last time I came here. To me, MB is a godsend. The Harley's plan or approach to marriage is, to me, common sense, completely rational, easy to implement and to follow. BUT... My W has always absolutely refused to consider visiting the site or reading. Obviously, for me to put the pages in front of her is a big LB - I cannot force her to read this site or follow the guidelines. I know there are procedures to follow MB by myself, but quite obviously I did not make them part of my life but made them simply temporary. I fell off the wagon, so to speak.

So, here I am, with my wife totally disgusted with me (and worse, but I lack the words she probably is feeling right now), to the point where she says she can't hardly look at me anymore. The Harley's say do not separate except as a last resort, and then don't do it without some sort of plan for reconciliation. My W, despite a kind and gentle conversation I had with her last night, makes no promises, and essentially, will not make a plan. The only thing she is adamant about is that I leave her alone, and given my situation and how much I love her, I agreed. "If that's what she needs..." I reasoned with myself.

I sure do wish the two of us could speak with Steve or Jennifer, but I anticipate my W's reaction to any such suggestion will be a firm NO. Do you think it will help me to speak to one of them by myself? Are they the type to give firm suggestions and directions as to how to proceed. Quite obviously, I feel in limbo right now - "what do I do"? Some psychologists, in my experience, are very reluctant to lay it all on the line, they want you to try and discover the answers for yourself. Time is an issue for me and my W right now, I can't be beating around the bush on this, I'm looking for an apartment right now. But I get the idea that I'm making a big mistake if I leave.

You see, those links you provided, Chris, are written for the standpoint of the BETRAYED spouse. In my case, I am the BETRAYER, and there is little direction given as to how I should proceed here. Also, this is "technically" not an affair per se, but I pretty much consider my situation to be the equivalent of a flesh-and-blood affair, as does my W. Perhaps even worse, from her standpoint, given the seamy particulars.

Well, I feel like I'm losing my train of thought here, so I'll stop. As always, I am much obliged for the comments and suggestions Chris, and I will very much consider calling Steve or Jennifer. I hope my questions regarding their approach can be answered by someone who has been counseled by them. Thank you.

My W has always absolutely refused to consider visiting the site or reading.
It would be great if she did but you cannot make her. Do it yourself.

I know there are procedures to follow MB by myself, but quite obviously I did not make them part of my life but made them simply temporary. I fell off the wagon, so to speak.
So get back on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The Harley's say do not separate except as a last resort, and then don't do it without some sort of plan for reconciliation. My W, despite a kind and gentle conversation I had with her last night, makes no promises, and essentially, will not make a plan.
That doesn’t mean that YOU cannot make a plan.

I sure do wish the two of us could speak with Steve or Jennifer, but I anticipate my W's reaction to any such suggestion will be a firm NO. Do you think it will help me to speak to one of them by myself?
Absolutely, positively yes! Seems to me that most here do it (at lest start it) without a spouse joining in.

Are they the type to give firm suggestions and directions as to how to proceed.
That is exactly what they do. Most people assume counseling with them is “finding your inner self” and exploring your childhood, as on would think about “normal” counseling. It is about firm actions to take to save your marriage, what you need to do and what you can expect to happen.
Steve is great motivator also. This will help keep you from “falling off the wagon”.

Some psychologists, in my experience, are very reluctant to lay it all on the line, they want you to try and discover the answers for yourself.
If you “knew” the answers, you wouldn’t be in the boat your in now. The Harleys have years and years of experience with this exact issue so they know what works and what to do. You don’t have the time nor experience to “discover” what works and what doesn’t.

But I get the idea that I'm making a big mistake if I leave.
Separation is not really a good idea in most cases.

You see, those links you provided, Chris, are written for the standpoint of the BETRAYED spouse.[
But they will give YOU a better understanding from her point of view of what she is experiencing and feeling.

Also, this is "technically" not an affair
“Technically” it is an affair.

I will very much consider calling Steve or Jennifer
Do it!

It’s not long, drawn out, hundreds of sessions type counseling. You get to the meat and get going.

I'm going to try and make my point a bit clearer here. The following is from the "Plan A/B" pages on the MB site:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My problem is, I HAVE ended the "affair" - in my case, I have acknowledged to my W I have a SA problem and will seek treatment for myself. According to Harley here, in his "perfect world", my W should now not find it necessary to go to Plan B, and cut off all contact with me, her betraying spouse.

But obviously, the Harley case is NOT real world, not MY world anyway. In my case, I have self-examined myself and acknowledged my shortcomings. I am MORE than willing to do whatever is necessary to remedy this horrible situation. But my W doesn't want to take me back. She is not willing to follow the MB concepts, and perhaps she has completely fallen out of love with me given my actions causing her love bank to be overwhelmingly withdrawn.

Quite honestly, I feel that the LEAST I owe her now is time and distance. I certainly don't want to be overbearing here, and I do need to listen to her needs - which, according to her, is to separate.

For MB - or reconciliation in general - to occur, don't you need both parties to be willing?

Another Harley quote from the same article:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward spouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, 'absence makes the heart grow fonder.'"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, this is slanted towards the perspective of the BETRAYED spouse. What about from my perspective, from the other side of the issue?

Here is the part of "Plan A/B" that I believe applies to me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce.

...

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As is probably painfully obvious now to those reading along here, my W wants to move to Plan B immediately (although not calling it that). How do I "intervene" and head her off on this? Should I do that? According to Harley, if we separate, we run the great risk of this being the end of the marriage. My W is quite obviously emotionally distraught at the moment (this is a mere three days old after all), but is rather adamant that I leave her be, which I can understand and empathize with. But... I really do not want to lose her even if that may be what I deserve here, as I do love her deeply and completely, despite my actions showing her anything but love...

What would some of you do in my situation, from this point forward?

I do understand that you are the ws and you are working it “from the other side”.
Yes is changes things a bit but not as much as you would think.
First off, keep in mind that she is hurt and trying to figure out what she did to deserve this. (nothing). But it’s still all stressful and confusing.
According to Harley here, in his "perfect world", my W should now not find it necessary to go to Plan B, and cut off all contact with me, her betraying spouse.
Okay.

But obviously, the Harley case is NOT real world, not MY world anyway. In my case, I have self-examined myself and acknowledged my shortcomings. I am MORE than willing to do whatever is necessary to remedy this horrible situation. But my W doesn't want to take me back.
Okay.
She is not willing to follow the MB concepts, and perhaps she has completely fallen out of love with me given my actions causing her love bank to be overwhelmingly withdrawn.
Again, okay.

Quite honestly, I feel that the LEAST I owe her now is time and distance. I certainly don't want to be overbearing here, and I do need to listen to her needs - which, according to her, is to separate.
Separation is not a “need”. She probably doesn’t even really know what she is feeling except anger, confusion, hurt, fear, etc.

For MB - or reconciliation in general - to occur, don't you need both parties to be willing?
Yes it is. Obviously a marriage cannot work if only one person is in it.
But this doesn’t mean she can’t or won’t come around.
This is what learning MB principles is all about. Doing things which will fill the needs of your spouse and NOT doing things which take away from the needs of your spouse.

She may never want to reconcile, she may hate you the rest of her life, she may come back tomorrow bawling her eyes out wanting it to all work out.
Do what you can to NOT LoveBust her and do what you can to meet her needs.
How do I "intervene" and head her off on this? Should I do that?
Be very gentle, no demands. Listen to anything she has to say and tell her anything she wants to know (don’t simply make up stuff to “satisfy” her questions).
Just let her know that you do not want to separate.

My W is quite obviously emotionally distraught at the moment (this is a mere three days old after all),
Exactly. She is still trying to figure out which way is up.

What would some of you do in my situation
Go slow. Be honest. Remember that YOU are the one on her $hit list. I’m not saying you “deserve” it, but that’s how it is for now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>She may never want to reconcile, she may hate you the rest of her life, she may come back tomorrow bawling her eyes out wanting it to all work out.

Do what you can to NOT LoveBust her and do what you can to meet her needs.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her "needs" right now are going well beyond the emotional right now - this is the huge problem I am facing. Her "needs" are financial and legal as well - eliminating me from her life in all aspects.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
>How do I "intervene" and head her off on this?
>Should I do that?

<strong>Be very gentle, no demands. Listen to anything she has to say and tell her anything she wants to know (don’t simply make up stuff to “satisfy” her questions).
Just let her know that you do not want to separate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay. Except, for instance, my W just called me up to tell me that she's made an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow at 10am to discuss how we remove my name from the Deed to the house. That's my W, always the driving force. No messing around, let's just get things done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> In fact, she's already shown me an ad from a place where we can go to get an inexpensive divorce. Great, honey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Do you see my dilemma here? To "not LoveBust" means giving in to her wishes here, does it not? If I put my foot down and say "NO WAY I am letting you remove my name from the Deed, and no way I am agreeing to a divorce", well... I think I can safely say I AM LoveBusting in a big way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
>My W is quite obviously emotionally distraught
>at the moment (this is a mere three days old
>after all),

<strong>Exactly. She is still trying to figure out which way is up.</strong>

>What would some of you do in my situation

<strong>Go slow. Be honest. Remember that YOU are the one on her $hit list. I’m not saying you “deserve” it, but that’s how it is for now. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Go slow? How about my wife go slow? She's in high gear here, as I suppose you can now tell. My W is pretty much a "one chance" person. I had my one chance, and I get no more. We're done, is what I believe she's trying to tell me. Isn't that how it appears from the outside? Is this just her way of coping? Well, that's fine, except there are major financial and legal complications for me, whatever decision I make. And I need to either slow her down or stop her cold (which is a major LB), or I need to decide right here and now that we're done and I need to move on with my life.

I'm starting to think we're way beyond the point of MB helping this immediate situation. I know many people divorce and remarry, but I'm not going to live my life around her after I'm gone. I'm not happy with where we live as it is, and if my name is off the Deed, and we're divorced, I'm not going to stick around here living on false hope that "maybe some day we can fall back in love".

Harley is right, to me - if we separate here, it is over. Especially with all the plans she's got in her emotionally distraught head right now.

I still don't know what to do, and I've literally got days to figure it out. What a mess I've made of my (and her) life...

Okay. Except, for instance, my W just called me up to tell me that she's made an appointment with a lawyer tomorrow at 10am to discuss how we remove my name from the Deed to the house.
You don’t have to go. You don’t have to sign over the house (I wouldn’t recommend it). And as an aside, the title to the house is completely separate from the mortgage. And if she were to get the title to the house, whoever has the financing is STILL responsible for the payment.

In fact, she's already shown me an ad from a place where we can go to get an inexpensive divorce.
You say, "I’m sorry I messed up (okay, it’s an understatement I know) but I don’t wish to divorce. I am trying to understand why I did what did."

Do you see my dilemma here? To "not LoveBust" means giving in to her wishes here, does it not?
No, it does not. NOT Lovebusting is NOT simply always doing what she wants.
Sometimes it is "okay/ permissible/required" to Lovebust, especially in a situation such as this.

If I put my foot down and say "NO WAY I am letting you remove my name from the Deed, and no way I am agreeing to a divorce", well... I think I can safely say I AM LoveBusting in a big way.
If you say it like that, you will simply be fanning the flames. You CAN say this in a loving way.

Go slow? How about my wife go slow?
Would be nice but you cannot MAKE her do anything.

I had my one chance, and I get no more. We're done, is what I believe she's trying to tell me. Isn't that how it appears from the outside? Is this just her way of coping?
Yes, it is her way of trying to cope but it doesn‘t mean she will keep it up, especially when she starts to really feel what has happened.

And I need to either slow her down or stop her cold (which is a major LB)
It may or may not be a LB.

I'm starting to think we're way beyond the point of MB helping this immediate situation.
Get an appt now.

Harley is right, to me - if we separate here, it is over. Especially with all the plans she's got in her emotionally distraught head right now.
You are sound like most people in a very desperate situation when they first get here. It’s normal to feel like this.
Just because she says something does NOT mean it is written in stone. Your attitude towards her over the next few days can make all the difference.

<small>[ January 22, 2004, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong>You are sound like most people in a very desperate situation when they first get here. It’s normal to feel like this.
Just because she says something does NOT mean it is written in stone. Your attitude towards her over the next few days can make all the difference. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you Chris - I don't know if this is common or not, but in the last few days, rather than be filled with arguing over the options on the house situation and about what I did to her, the times we have spent together have been filled with calm talking and revealing things to each other that we never wanted to - or could - talk about. I remarked to my W that it was sadly ironic that NOW we find a way to be so gentle and concerned about one another, instead of "the usual" - meaning, the sort of thing that it seems everyone who isn't following the MB concepts eventually falls into in their marriage - lack of communicating, lack of respect, lack of love. We discussed the misunderstandings that have occurred due to our lack of communicating. We discussed our needs, wants, hopes and desires - the sort of things we NEVER discussed seemingly since the days we were dating so long ago.

In the course of these conversations, I happened to have the MB notebook right next to me. Blind luck? (I had packed up some things earlier and this was innocently laying there on top of the pile) Fate? (We weren't talking in a room we normally talk in, the computer room) Who knows. But I took full advantage of the opportunity to show my W the MB EN/LB questionnaires, and I showed her mine that I had filled out a year ago (when she adamantly refused to look at MB). I probably made her feel guilty, and LB'ed a bit, because I chided her for not considering something that I felt would be a big positive for us, but her reaction to MB has always irked me, as I believe so much in the concepts. Anyhow, she looked through the surveys, and didn't respond in any great fashion - but she also didn't react negatively either. This morning, I asked her about reading them and if she had learned anything about me that she didn't know before (trying to pull something, anything, out of her about them!). She shook her head no (typical of my W) but I persisted and asked her if we ever do get back together again, would she be willing to fill out and exchange the EN/LB forms and look at the MB concepts with me? This time she shook her head yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I was thrilled! It may not mean anything if we don't work this out, but it will mean the world to me if we do... We will certainly not have the same sorts of communicating issues that we've had in the past, that's for sure... Thanks for your help Chris, much obliged. Best wishes.