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#1112653 02/18/04 07:04 AM
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I couldn’t believe that I have been fighting this losing battle for four years. What was I thinking? Am I that stubborn and naïve or just in a “fog”? I know, even Just Learning and many of my old MB friends have given up on me. Sorry.

It has been exactly four years since d-day as of yesterday. I’m sitting here wondering where I have been. What have I done to myself and my family? Was it “WorthATry” to save my marriage of what I knew then and of what I know now?

On the surface, we seem to be normal couple among friends and family. But, deep from within we are at war of the sex and the marriage. Despite of what my wife has done and continued to be “cold” about our sex life, I shouldn’t ignore her effort for trying to make it with me on rebuilding our marriage.

I know it isn’t perfect, but at least we are trying. I know she is or has been. But then, to me, it wasn’t enough. Am I expected too much out of her or our marriage? The question narrows down to ONE thing. That is SEX. Is it without sex there is no marriage?

She did say that she thought about this “sex” issue from time to time, but when it came down to doing it, she just couldn’t do it. She just couldn’t. Again, we went down this path before many many times. I even suggested sex therapy, but she refused.

Either OOOO “Jack on and off” and keeps his marriage or gets a divorce and lives happily ever after if he can find a sleeping beauty.

I began (what I call) my plan B as of yesterday.

Thank you for reading this.

#1112654 02/18/04 07:46 AM
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I don't know the answer... I can tell you my WH told me if he had sex with me he felt like he was cheating on her, and if he had sex with her he felt like he was cheating on me, so consequently, he lost all desire for sex. Go figure... weird the way the mind works...isn't it?

#1112655 02/18/04 10:20 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it without sex there is no marriage?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately sometimes we view things this way and it shouldn't be that way.

We guys tend to get narrow minded in the area of sex. There IS more to life than just sex. If all of your focus on your M is in the area of sex, then sex is all your M is to you.

Wasn't there a time before you were M when you didn't have sex and the relationship meant something to you? If you can get back to that state of mind and those kind of feelings I'm sure your W would respond.

#1112656 02/18/04 10:41 AM
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To me it's a perfectly reasonable deal-breaker...

for many reasons ...

there is nothing wrong or bad in expecting to celebrate human sexuality with in a marriage...

you are not an orgre...or a sex fiend for anything else...

you wife can not consider herself in recovery if she is not willing to address your EN....
and being the WS some onus of responsibility ies with her...no matter her guilt issues or whatever other term of the day she is using......

the fact that she refuses any type of therapy or medical attention to the matter speaks volumes on her disrecpectful judgement she places on your totally reasonable desire...

the desire to be derised and find your spouse desirable is a good thing...

The fact that EVEN if she did not 'enjoy" or whatever the reason for not having intercourse...doesnt not mean that you and she could not be pursuing many many different levels of intimacy and physical contact...

the most important sex organ is the brain...
quadraplegics paralyzed from the chest line down...learn that quickly...
that errongenous zones can actually re-route to different parts of the body that can receive the "feelings"....
so if someone with literally no feeling from the chest down can achieve great sexual pleasure..then there is lots of hope for those that believe differently...

but when it came down to doing it, she just couldn’t do it. She just couldn’t
she should re-word that to chooses not do it..
cause IT can be many things...

and in cherishing my husband and our relationship and the importance of being a team and being intimate...

I sure as heck even if I couldn't do IT...
what find out what I could do...and do THAT

ARK

#1112657 02/18/04 10:54 AM
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O.O.O.O.,

Hey bro', r u talking to me? You know us oldies but goodies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> did not give up on you. You quit posting!

Glad to see you back and of course, me and my 2 cents here.

As for the s3xless M scenario, I read a passage (please read it all through 1st) that said: "...yet. because of prevalence of fornication, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife her due; but let the wife also do likewise to her hsuband. The wife does not excercise authority over her own body but her husband does; likewise, also, the husband does not excercise authority over his own body, but his wife does. Do not be depriving each other of it, except by mutual consent........" The verse goes on to speak of the need to allow time for other important things like prayer and it also shows that this consideration for each other is so that we don't fall into temptation due to a lack of self-regulation.

Is this a proper statement? After all the ideas about freedom, individuality, women's liberation, self-expression, I need my own space, I need to be me, me 1st and any other type of idealolgy separate from common sense...... I believe the sage advice quoted above has always had merit both then and more so now. The purpose of M is to unite 2 separate persons into 1 harmonious family unit. The joining of and H & W to become one is where the M takes off from being more than just a piece of paper.

The above quote does not mean ownership as in a commodity to be shelved and selfishlessly used. Rather it is more like a precious possession to be cherished and loved. See if your W truly is in recovery, your needs and desires w/b her wish to fill. The fact that she doesn't seem to want to go there yet shows that there is still a selfish part of her character that does not want to participate in the true M.

Have you read His Needs/Her Needs yet? Give it a shot. Take a look at Givers/Takers. They may have some helpful ideas for you to share with your W.

What are her top ENs? How are you meeting them? It isn't just meeting them but how they are met.

It is hard to put real emotion in words in times like this but read the following sentences with and without emotion and see how you feel:

H: Here are your flowers.

W: Dinner's ready

Just those 2 short statements can be read with many different emotions. The result to the hearer will vary. Acceptance and rejection can be made based on the tone itself.

I haven't given up on you....... remember me? The Stubborn One? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I don't think others have either.

take care,
L.

#1112658 02/18/04 04:16 PM
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Thank you all for your reply.

heavenlee30
Maybe that’s how my wife feels about sex after her affair. But, I think it went deeper than that and the affair helped emphasizing it. She lost her desire for sex right after our second child was born and I must have not heard her then even though our sex life when down hill from there almost 14 years ago. It was just flirting and went to far, before she realized how deep she traveled, it was too little too late. In her mind, once she had sex with someone else, there was no return. I was her first ever in term of intimacy.

Eduard
I know that we guys tend to get narrow minded in term of sex and there is more to life than sex. I thought that I should have open mind for that, but after 4 years, this SEX thing is still haunting me. Without it I feel that she is not committed to rebuild our marriage as a husband and a wife (narrow minded, I know).

Yes, there was a time when I didn’t have sex and the relationship meant something to me with an EXPECTATION. I kind of went back to that state of mind and what I got was no sex for 4 years (well, got one from nagging about 18 months ago after 2.5 years without it from D-day). If I got it right, it is equal to 48 months.


ark^^
I don’t think my wife’s ever considered herself in recovery as far as the sex is concerned. She recovered from her affair and thought of nothing about the OM, but when it comes down to sex, she just couldn’t make herself doing it (not just me nor anybody else). Her mind just shut down completely. That’s what the issue that I try to deal with.


Orchid

Yes, my dear Orchid. I was talking to you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, I’m glad to see your reply.

I have read His Needs/Her Needs a while back (way way back). Maybe I NEED to do that again. It might help, but then again, it might back fire like last time.

Her top EN is not to have sex with me or ask about it. Otherwise everything is perfectly fine. She got everything she needs, period. I have provided them all (I think) and she is fine with them as long as I don’t ask her about sex.

Unless I want to be in a sexless marriage (the way she wants it), we will live happily ever after. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

#1112659 02/18/04 04:28 PM
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Hey Guy. Hmmmm, nothing's changed - or has it?

ditto ark: "a perfectly reasonable deal-breaker..."

You say she has declined "sex therapy." Perhaps over the years you've addressed it here, but could there be medical reason for her lack of libido?

How's her thyroid?

Let's meet and have that beer and discuss this man to man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

WAT

#1112660 02/18/04 04:55 PM
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OOOO

Wow - same sit here. WW's sex drive went south after #2; until OM came along. Sex was a boring 3 or 4 times per year duty for her with me, but it was "fantastic" with OM. Sadly, 1 year after D-Day WW still no desire for me.

So, I have left. Why should I be sentenced to a life of celibacy? Granted, I heard that OM was both "skilled" (he was a player) and "blessed" (if you know what I mean), and I know that after nearly 10 years of lousy sex 3-4 times a year, I was definitely a little out of practice. Can't do much about the equipment - I've got what I've got. Still, I do love my W; she is a good person and a wonderful mother. I love her in that sense, but not as in a marriage. That goes for her, too. "Loves me", but is not attracted to me.

I should say, leaving has not been well received. W thinks I'm giving up on our M. She thinks I'm running away and giving up. She thinks I want to have some sort of "revenge A", or that I want to punish her. That is not the case. In fact, it's because I love her that I'm leaving.

I want to preserve something of the love and relationship we DO have somehow; so I left to see if I can find someone with whom I can forge that intimate connection.

Since D-Day W "offered" herself to me, to fulfill my EN. But, if her heart and passion aren't in it, then it is meaningless to me. Also, I see it being a downhill slide, and soon the resentment would mount and overwhelm us. I fear we would lose what we do have and become bitterly divorced.

I don't know about you, but I can't see myself either subjecting my W to duty sex, or seeing that part of my life end. I'm only 40, so I know my best years are behind me anyways. I've lost the last 10 of my sexual life and I don't want to lose the next 10.

I heard that guy on the radio last week quote Abraham Lincoln.
"Question: If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?
Answer: 4. Just because you call a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg."

Just because you call your partnership a marriage doesn't make it one. Sexual intimacy is important between a husband and wife, and if it's not there then you don't have a marriage. You might have a close relationship, but it's not a marriage.

I'd even go so far as to include those suffering from physical ailments or amputations. Sexuality is a mental thing, and if both partners have the mutual desire there are ways around that. But, when one partner does not have the mental desire for the other then there is no marriage.

I'm not advocating that you leave. But, I am saying that for me, I couldn't stay.

#1112661 02/18/04 06:36 PM
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Worthatry
That day will come and that beer will be served. But for tonight, I will drink two. One for me and one for you, my friend. Maybe two for me and one for you. And, maybe three for me and one for you…might as well get myself drunk. Have not done that for a very long time.

Medical reason might be a small factor in this, but she didn’t want to get to that area either. I know she is dry. She used the lubrication a while back (at least the last 10 years). I think it is more in her mind than it is in her body.

Uphill
Thank you for the insight.
That’s where I’m. I don’t want to be sentenced to a life of celibacy. I think that’s how she sees it. She still cares about me, but not in-love with me, not enough to open up for me anymore. I still love my wife and PROBABLY continue to love her until my last breath.

It is sad to see this chapter of our marriage comes to an end. Like you said I might have to LEAVE my wife to preserve my love for her.


After two days of plan B, when I came home I got a letter from her in my room (we sleep in a separate bedroom).

Here is a part of what she wrote:

“I am truly sorry for what I have put you through. I didn’t mean it. I was stressed out. But what was done was done, I can’t undo it. All I can do is just hope that you could forgive me one day. I know you said you did but I also know that you did not. It’s hard I understand, and I can’t blame you. I know you try to do all you can, but sometimes things do not turn out the way we want it to. Please try to understand and make peace with it. I’m worry about you.

Since I can’t give you the only one thing that you want from me, the only way I can help you get it is to be separated from you so you can have the freedom to go look and find a woman who could give it to you. It makes me very sad to have to say this, but I don’t see any other way to make you happy… PS, I try to give you what you want, but I can’t do it. I suggest the alternative ways, you refuse them, so there is nothing else I could do to make you happy. I am sorry”

What do you think of that?

#1112662 02/18/04 07:38 PM
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seems to be some genuine pain in her letter,
my heart goes out to you.

my prayers are with you
cliff

#1112663 02/18/04 07:46 PM
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I think she needs somebody to crawl inside her head and see what's up.

OOOO, I have always doubted the problem was you.

WAT

#1112664 02/18/04 07:54 PM
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WAT said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she needs somebody to crawl inside her head and see what's up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I concur. There is SOMETHING going on... whether it is physical, chemical or emotional... unless SHE is willing to investigate it... :SHRUG:

I just can't imagine your pain... or hers, for that matter...

Prayers,
Cali

#1112665 02/19/04 11:51 AM
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How do I give the medicine to the sick who refuses to take it? Do I leave the sick to die or force the sick to take it? That’s the question that I try to find an answer for. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

#1112666 02/20/04 12:27 AM
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OOOO,

I am sorry this is still going on. I personally think she is playing the sympathy card while she does exactly what she said she would do and wanted to do. Have you take care of her and the kids until they leave for college and then she will divorce you. She said she would and I have no reason to doubt her word. You are the only one that seems to think she is lying to you.

That note was without a doubt on of the sickest things I have read. IT is NOT only sex that is absent from this marriage and she knows it as do you. LOVE is missing big time. She has NONE for you save for what you do for her and the kids.

She had sex with the OM, so I know and you know she is capable of it IF she wants to do it. She MAY be capable of love, but I do have my doubts.

OOOO, you have been a good man and a far better husband to your W, than I would have been, but it is time for more than PLAN B. She is NOT being heroic by letting you go, she is just a coward that won't face what she has done to you, to your marriage, and yes to your children.

You two have not shared a bed or bedroom in over a decade now. How is that working for you? To quote Dr. Phil. I know it is not. I think that unless she seeks help for her issues, you will probably be the very first person I have suggested this to: consider alternatives to her as a W. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

It is a very sick situation and I think you know that.

I apologize for my strong opinions but you and I have communicated for a long time, and I see no movement on her part. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have seen nothing from you that suggests that there has been. You are just the guy who brings home the check, cuts the grass, and takes care of the kids. I am not sure you two are even truely friends, but surely you are at best friends with NO priviledges.

I just get so frustrated with your situation as you can plainly see. It is probably better that I don't post to you. I wish you the very very best OOOO.

God Bless,

JL

#1112667 02/20/04 12:53 AM
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OoOoOoOo


How do I give the medicine to the sick who refuses to take it? Do I leave the sick to die or force the sick to take it?

You don't...and yes you do...

BUT first lets clarify that the granting of victim status that YOU are willing to give her...
is not warranted....nor does it lay onus of responsibility where it belongs....

things that would warrant the compassion you are extending here are not the reality here....

This is where it gets scary OoOoOo...because of your willingness to let this be turned around as you being the bad guy...or doing something wrong...which you are not...

and YOU have to step back and truly live with the thought that wanting an intimate relationship with your wife...who day after day CHOOSES not to have an intimate relationship with you...is not a negative thing on YOUR side...It is what a husband should do...and should a wife...

YOU have to believe that YOU alone are worthy and valued enough to state that statement...and to have your wife either plug into that statement and realize her role and responsibility in not rejecting your value and worth in her CHOOSING...

She is no victim...

So lets do the quantifying part of this so that I am clear that it is noted that I do have compassion for your wife....and her issues....
but it is one thing to have issues...which she does...
it is one thing to have issues (medical psych emotional etc and do something about it...which she does nothing...(chooses to do nothing)

and it is one thing to wrap herself in these issues...and use the label as a shield that takes away her ownership....which she does...

Since I can’t give you the only one thing that you want from me,

make a copy of a letter get out your red pen...and cross out that statement and write...since I choose each day NOT to give you the only one thing you want me...

and look OoOo it's not sex you want from her..
its intimacy
being desired
and being cherished by your spouse...
none of those are wrong bad...none is unreasonable...

and so what concerns me, is that her INABILITY to want to do that or work effectively on it...(read as choice choice choice)
is being turned around as some type of flaw or selfish demand in you....
that's where it gets twisted...

she definitely can choose to never be intimate with anyone ever again in her life..but it is her sad and lonely choice...and not of your doing...

If you can remove yourself from that ownership...can you then deal better with that reality...??

why should any human being feel guilty of wanting that from their spouse?

So should you divorce her? leave her..not saying that...but if I were you...I would change the presentation of my message to her...so that ALL onus of responsibility lies on her....
so that the message is clear and doesn't get caught up in all the emotional distractions, victem and poor me syndrome...

I would make appointments with sexual therapists and whether she goes or not her choice....

but do all of those things without disrepect without argueing...and perhaps YOU should make the appointment with the therapist who deals with sexuality and invite her to go with you...
no lbing...no expectations...and expect her to refuse....but YOU go...and WHATEVER you do...
do not argue with her over this...but you go...and keep going as you learn to remove yourself from ownership of her issues...

And as a woman...you wanna peak my interest...or you want to get some type of rise out of me...start seeing a therapist where MY actions and MY behavior as the topic of the day...
and even though I would be chomping at the bit to ignore what you are doing....
I know I'd be curious...and I know I would not be able to contain not asking you about it...

make it no secret you are seeing a sexual therapist to work on "our" intimacy issues"
make it as much as a positive thing as you can...
and tell her nothing about it..
when if asked...
invite her lovingly week after week...

OoOo I think that to deal effectively with you you need to strengthen yourself first....

ark

#1112668 02/19/04 04:13 PM
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Before I go any further or reply to Just Learning and Ark. Here is what my wife wrote/said to me.

She said that before we separate and/or divorce, she would like me to give her time to get settle, to be separated with friendship because we have two kids together. Our connection is still there when it comes to their future, education, life, and so on…She asked for two more years to complete her education, find a fulltime job, and get settled. Then, I can leave.

She continued to say that she just hopes that since we will have only 2 years left to be together as a family, we should make the most out of it. Trying to enjoy each other company. Having fun together. Leaving good impression and when I have a new family, she can still be my extended family or friend.

That's where we are.

#1112669 02/19/04 04:30 PM
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OOOO,

I wasn't going to post again, because I KNOW what should have already happened and what will happen. YOU WILL BE DIVORCED. She is going to divorce you when it suits her.

The one thing that is clearly missed in all of the talk about lack of sex, is her very clear lack of RESPECT for you. She doesn't HONOR you, or the marriage, she is just using you.

She was going to finish her education 4 years ago. She was going to some classes two or more years ago. Why, should you put your life on hold ONE MOMENT longer for her?

This is NOT about what is best for the children, they already have a very warped idea of what a H and W should act like toward one another. It is NOT about her wanting to be your friend. She simply wants to be able to use you once the marriage is over. It is purely and simply about HER.

You have and you have had choices. You have hung in for 4 years with NO improvement since she left you to have her affair. There is NOTHING any of us can tell you that you don't know.

It is simply how long you are going to allow her to use you. The latest comment you posted makes it very clear that my view of her is correct. She will divorce you when the kids are gone, and you know what else will be gone?? Her lack of interest in sex. She will divorce you and she will find someone that she WILL have sex with.

I think the reason I get so agitated by your posts and your situation, is that I don't believe I have ever seen on this site, and I have literally read hundred's of thousands of posts, a spouse so disrespect and use a partner.

I don't think plan B is where you should be. I truely think it is plan D, unless she makes a dramatic turnaround and starts to seek counseling for her issues.

Good Luck and God Bless,

JL

#1112670 02/19/04 07:13 PM
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Just Learning
I would like to personally say thank you very much for being here and hanging on with me. I know you are frustrated with my situation. I know you don’t want to post to me anymore because I don’t seem to get it. I hear you. I heard you. But, just hang on with me for a little while if you can. I will get there.

I know it has been four miserable years in my life. It sounds like I have wasted my (should have been happy) life down the drain. But it was also a life of grown and learned for me. I should have, I would have, or I could have done something differently to what I have had done for the past 4 years to turn thing around.

I’m beginning to have a gut to do something about it now. That’s why I started posting here again. It will be my last effort before I let it go. I want to be where someday I can just sit down and say to myself that I have try my very best to save this unhealthy marriage as you know it.

Your assumption about what my wife is going to do after my kids leave for college and divorce me could be true. It seems like there is no reason to doubt that, period.

What I’m about to say to you now would probably blow your head to the roof. I don’t think she would pack up and leave unless I push her to do so. That push would be bringing up the sex issue and in a nutshell it would bring the guilt back in her “sick” head.

I don’t want to discredit her. I know she’s tried to reconnect with me in many ways, but I guess I just too naive to see it. Maybe the sex thing is over my “thick” head or I just don’t know how to convey to her that sex is not what I’m after but “love” is. Somehow that got mixed up between Sex and Love. Yes, I want to have sex once we love each other again.

What I want to do now is to push for one last time for her to seek help for her issues. But I need to come up with the “real” plan on how to go about it. I have to admit that I have not done a good job of keeping up with the counselor myself. I need to get my butt up and do something about it (for real). I would just hope that thing would fall in place as time goes by. But I was wrong. Her recovery seems to go slowly than normal to the point where the turtle is still faster than that.

I started searching for a sex therapy right now and after watching Opra Show today, I got some ideas of where to begin (I think).

Do you think it is a plan or I can just go with plan D, period?

#1112671 02/19/04 08:17 PM
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Dear bro',

U C we are NOT giving up on you. But you need to eventually decide whether partial needs are worth living with. One can only live on crumbs for soo long and then real sustenance is required. Good food like a good marriage is a real need. Honest R is not an option.

If she is stringing you along, cut the string before you get tied in a knot, not of your doing. Don't entangle yourself in another rollercoaster. If she is feeding you a line of bs, spit it out and demand real food. If all she has is junk food, then yes, discard it and go get something healthy. Might not taste as good at first but it is last longer. I hope this isn't making you hungry but helping you get the visual of the need to move forward,.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Your happiness and that of your family is important. Imagine how your children would feel if they learned their mom strung their father along? Better to cut your losses and let her carry the pain.

OOOO, I am sorry you are dealing with this. I wish I could go over there and have a heart to fist.....I mean heart to hart talk with her. Arrrrgh....I hate it when I see good people suffering.

Ok, Orchid is done venting but I sure don't like someone messing with a bro', ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Listen to JL. He is being harsh but with the right heart motive. We need more like him....can he be cloned? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Maybe if your W knew how many BS girls were worried about you, she'd start wondering what she is losing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Hugz,
L.

#1112672 02/19/04 08:36 PM
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
J
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J
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 15,284
OOOO,

I like Orchid's concept of your W realizing what she may lose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I thought I might respond to some of your comments. You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would like to personally say thank you very much for being here and hanging on with me. I know you are frustrated with my situation. I know you don’t want to post to me anymore because I don’t seem to get it. I hear you. I heard you. But, just hang on with me for a little while if you can. I will get there.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OOOO, you don't understand. I am NOT frustrated WITH you, I am frustrated FOR you. Now you know why I would not make a good counselor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I just hate to see someone who has worked as hard as you have get taken advantage of for so long. Yes, in most cases of affairs, one party or the other takes advantage of the other, but that is usually short term or the marriage won't make it. Your situation is NOT short term. And she is proposing that you accept it and go for another few years. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know it has been four miserable years in my life. It sounds like I have wasted my (should have been happy) life down the drain. But it was also a life of grown and learned for me. I should have, I would have, or I could have done something differently to what I have had done for the past 4 years to turn thing around.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure I would use the term wasted. And I realize you could not do whatever you decide to do, until you reached a point where YOU needed to make the decision.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m beginning to have a gut to do something about it now. That’s why I started posting here again. It will be my last effort before I let it go. I want to be where someday I can just sit down and say to myself that I have try my very best to save this unhealthy marriage as you know it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OOOO, you are a better man than I. I can say that with all honesty. I am pro-marriage, but I will honestly tell you I would have call it a day a long time ago. You amaze me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your assumption about what my wife is going to do after my kids leave for college and divorce me could be true. It seems like there is no reason to doubt that, period. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is an assumption, but she told you years ago, that this was her plan, and from what you have said she has pretty much stuck to it.

I also realize that for you she is NOT all bad, or you would have been gone along time ago, but there is an element to her that is simply using you and yes the kids for her own purposes without regard or respect for any of you.

I do think you are right, she has confused sex with love and respect. But, sadly I don't think she has shown any of these things to you.

Finally, like Orchid said, we have not given up on you. It is just that there is no way to offer you any help until you decide to change something. It is you call all of the way and there is no getting around that.

God Bless,

JL

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