OK, I'm going to see if I can make this short.

H had affair since june or july of '03. Tried to stop many times. He was set to move out Feb 1, but couldn't do it. Ended contact Feb. 2. Still has townhouse. Hasn't started MC like I requested.

Ups and downs since then. Today has been a bad day. He said do you want me to move out. I said maybe you should. He went to work out. Just came back home. He called her and told me he is going to see her.

He doesn't know what he is going to say, but said he never really ended it with her.

I'M SCARED I'M MAD I'M ANXIOUS I CAN'T STAND THIS

help help help

When I reread my post, I thought I should clarify something.

He said he never "really" ended it with her. He hasn't spoken or emailed or anything since 02/02. I don't think he has even seen her since beginning of December 03.

"Ended it" and "ended it" are two different things. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Guess he has been saying the first "ended it" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

There is nothing you can do about his crazy behavior. Just take care of yourself and stick to the plans here. Are you in Plan A?

hello believer. I've done plan a since he told me ILYBINILWY. Almost went to plan b several times. Have lb numerous times ... more recently.

I can't stand to think of them. He is in love with her. How in the world can I contend with that? She has his heart. He's in love with her, not me. He's here for the kids, not me.

I HATE THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Stung

I am sorry for the pain and uncertainty you are going through right now. Many of us have been there, and IT AIN'T EASY.

Let him go with her. This guy (like most WS's) has no idea what he wants. They are all the same. Now you need to take care of you. Stop taking this personally.

When all this goes down, your self-esteem goes to zero. Have you read the 180's? You are in charge here, you have a plan. He has no idea what he is doing.

shattered, thanks for your words.
believer, yes I've read all that. I don't really care at this moment in my life. I feel like doggy doo doo. How in the world do people do this for years?! There aint no way on God's green earth I am doing this again. I know that I've said that before, but this is the absolute last tiome! If it isn't over and he decides to RREALLY work on our marriage, I am done!!!!!!!!!!!

Seven months of this crap is all that I can take. No MORE!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not a bad person, not hard to live with, I'm a good mother. Most people tell me that I'm pretty amazing. That I'm a great person and such a giver. I'm not going to give anymore. I'm a taker now!

WHOOPS... I didn't mean to post yet. Anyway.... I don't know if you are familiar with the MB program... Plan A and all that, but, assuming you are, believer hit the nail on the head, there's nothing ELSE (except Plan A) that you can do.

And while I'll swear that the MB philosophy has given my M a second chance (or at least I think so NOW), sometimes things don't go exactly like they are planned.

My WW had an EA/PA from April 03 till Labor Day 03. That was DDay weekend. Ugly. Of course I insisted on NC. She never agreed, the fog too thick. I didn't find MB site till December. We did go to MC from 1st of September, but I was certain we were not making progress and there was NO connection between me and the WW. I plan A'd my A$$ of from mid-Dec till present, but never was there a feeling of connecting with WW.

Between DDay and mid Jan there were about 4-5 phone calls from WW to OM and 2-3 personal "contacts" in a public place. The fog wasn't clearing much, but I did see her responding a tiny bit to my efforts at Plan A.

Then something out of the blue took place. My adult son called me a week ago yesterday. He said he ran into the OM and his new GF where he works. I thought big deal, so what. I offhandedly mentioned it to WW later that evening, totally without emotion, just reporting the call, and it was like she was slapped across the face.

She controlled her emotions till we went to bed, and she completely fell apart. I held her and comforted her, and encouraged her to talk, which she did. It came out, much to my shock and surprise, the she had held on to her feeling for the OM for 6 months, while receiving basically ZERO contact FROM him. She believed that the OM had shared the same passion for her as she did him. I stayed home with WW the following day, and she was emotionally wrought all day. At one point, she was lamenting how it didn't end properly, and she felt bad about that, blah, blah, blah. I said, fine, you want "closure", here's the phone, get your closure. What I knew at the time was, she simply wanted to confirm with OM that he did have a new GF. I know it goes against all MB principles, but I chose to take the chance. We were getting nowhere, anyway. I gave her the phone, gave her 10 minutes to have the conversation with the OM, and I left the house.

I gave her more like 20 minutes, and when I didn't return, she called me to say the call was done. She confirmed what I had told her, and broke down and cried uncontrollably. I held her throughout the breakdown. During that time, although she was grief striken over the end of the affair, she expressed remorse and apologized profusely. The whole realization of the damage the affair caused FINALLY became absolutely clear to her.

Although it was one of the hardest days of my life, I simply disconnected from my own feelings, and let her run the full gamut of emotions of realizing the A was really over and the OM was going on with his life.

In just one week, we have finally began the reconnecting I've been longing for. It took more from me than I thought possible to comfort her for HER (bizarre)loss. But it has paid off in gold coins, recovery-wise.


My point is... the MB principles are fabulous. Without Plan A, we would be most of the way through an ugly divorce. However, as similar as all affairs are, there are unique differences between people and how they react. I was delivered one tidbit of information, and merely passed it on, having no idea that it was the one piece of the puzzle that was missing in making my WW realize the A was done and over with. She got her closure, and I get a chance at making a brand new strong and vibrant marriage.

I was thinking that each departure from the MB roadmap was a setback and a disaster, but if I hadn't let WW have that phone call, we'd probably still be in foggy limbo, with no end in sight.

Never give up hope. Learn and observe. Plan A like hell, pray, and hope for a little miracle like I received.

God bless

SD

I wish I'd gone into Plan B the day I said, "I want you to care about Sophia more than me" and his reply was "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone."

To my personal detriment, healthwise and emotionally, I stayed in Plan A not thinking there really was an affair. Well, D-day nearly resulted in a nervous breakdown.

You cannot control him. There is no law in Minnesota at least that penalizes your H for breaking his marriage vow.

He could come out of the fog, but you need to protect yourself in the meantime. The ball is in his court; don't let him blame you for his actions so that he can pretend that it is up to you to end the affair.

shattered, I've Plan A'd my a$$ off also. And I had never been stifling to him during our marriage prior to his affair. This may be time to Plan B.

cherished, I think it is time for Plan B. This a.m. I asked him what his decision was last night and he didn't want to talk about it. I said I guess that tells me what you decided, meaning he chose her. He said it doesn't mean anything. What the h*** does that mean?

Well, he can have her if she's so d*** special. I know I'll get a great man who will love me and want to be with me. This one sure doesn't.

Will update you if we talk today.

I think I differ from MB philosophy on this one. My H wouldn't have dared to openly tell me he was headed off to see OW nor would she have told me that...they were both afraid of what I might do.

I would never have "willingly/openly" walk out that door to see OW without severe consequences...I would have threatened to follow him and cause scene, would have threatened to call police (adultery is still illegal), would have threatened to call anyone else I could think of that would matter to him and ask them to go where he and OW were. I believe firmly that all is fair in love and war...well almost all. I thought of the fight for my H and family was like being in a war. I fought with all I had. In my case I was lucky that it worked.

I DESPISE cake eaters....as long as a WS is chosing to stay home they should maintain NC...if they chose to leave, I feel they should maintain NC until divorced, especially in families with kids involved...I didn't want my kids thinking this behavious was acceptable in any way!

Is OW married? Has A been exposed to everyone?

I feel so bad for you...it's bad enough to know after the fact that you H was with someone else...to have him rub your face in it and tell you he was going there now...would have drove me over the edge!!!! You must be a really strong lady.

After this stunt would think you should strongly consider Plan A....he is showing total disrespect and without a strong action from you...will probably only get worse.

I wouldn't be alone right now, is there someone you can call?

I feel for you. While your H is more open about it that mine was, the feeling of devastation was there for me. I remember lying in bed, with the not yet one year old a few feet from me in her crib, and telling myself that NO MATTER WHAT I needed to be there for that child.

It doesn't matter if your H has chosen you or has chosen OW, just like it didn't really matter whether my H was seeing OW. What matters is he is not committed to a program of recovery.

My heart goes out to you, too. In all the pain of our M, the absolute worst day was when I said, "I want you to care about me more than Sophia" and his reply was not "I care about you". PLEASE take care of yourself. You cannot control him. You cannot persuade him. You can tell him to leave and not have contact with you until and unless he is willing to go through a program of recovery. By doing this, you are saying that you do not tolerate adultery and YOU have enough self-respect to not live in the shell of a marriage.

From what I have experienced with two MCs, Harley's program has some real advantages, including cost. The focus is on each other and time with each other instead of time with the MC.

BUT you aren't to that point yet because he isn't committed. He is a cake eater. Well, boot him out. If he wants to come back, fine. In the meantime, take care of yourself. YOU DESERVE BETTER not because of anything in particular special about you but because you have human dignity. I remember those months during the affair thinking, "Not even Ted Bundy deserves to be treated like this." NO ONE deserves to be treated like you are being treated. BOOT HIM OUT -- sit him down, tell him that you are willing to work on your marriage, and without his willingness you want him out of the house. No answer is an answer: the answer is I am not committed to working on our marriage. Whether he is seeing OW or not is simply part of the syndrome of not committed to working on our marriage.

OH I feel for you... If you want, go see my IC. I really think she's good, very level-headed.

<small>[ March 10, 2004, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

Stung, if you haven't read his needs/her needs by dr. harley you should really do it fast. Plan A is great advice and Plan B allows you in a way to walk away because you will know you've done all you could and that you have lost your love for him.

You are hurting so much now, I know, we all know. But I firmly believe in the emotional needs concept and realize how wrong I was as well as my H who had/is having the A. Read some of the other posts and read whatever else you can get your hands on.

Come here to vent to vent with your WH, it's useless on so many levels. You do love and care for him or else this wouldn't be affecting you the way it is. I wish you much comfort and be strong.

Okay, after I posted this a.m. I went back to bed for a while. Got up and promptly called a divorce attorney. On the way there, I called OW and told her she could have him. Had a good meeting with attorney.

H called while I was in meeting. He didn't realize that it had "gotten this far." He thought he was just going to move out and see how things go. I'm done and I can't take any more!

I just got home and read your responses. It's wonderful to know that people care!

forevertogether, yes OW is married and has a 2-year-old. My H wants to raise her. She is probably right now in the middle of a D, but I don't know that for sure. A has been exposed to my parents, H parents and our best friends.

cherished, yes, my H is pretty open with me. He hasn't seen her for quite some time. Probably only once since December, but who cares?! He is still in love with her. That's what I have a problem with. It doesn't matter if he is seeing or talking to her ... what really matters is that he is in love with her and not with me.

So, tonight I guess we'll discuss him moving out. He already has a townhouse that he rented in February, but just couldn't emotionally go through with moving out and "ended it" with her.

roughroad, I did a great Plan A for several months. If H had been receptive to additions to his LB, it would have been full. But he wasn't. She was filling it and that's all that mattered. I was only here to take care of the kids, dry cleaning, garbage, dinner, etc.

I whole-heartedly believe in the emotional needs concepts. I have read many, many books, this entire website, lived on the discussion forums all day long every day from September through December. I KNOW what's what ... my H doesn't/won't/can't get it. Yes, I do love him very much. But I also know that I need to protect my heart. He is not allowed to step on it anymore.

Soooo, he has to move out. We'll probably get a divorce. He can have her and she can have him. I'm not who he wants. He wants someone who has a career (I gave mine up after our second child is born, so I'll have to go back to school to get one), is aggressive, headstrong, willing to stand up to him. I'm a peacemaker (or I have been all of my life up until now). But, baby, there ain't no peace no more!

I did a great Plan A for several months.
So what happened to Plan B then?

Stung

You are firmly in the driver's seat as of right now. And having done a great Plan A up till this point, you are in a perfect position to execute Plan B.

Remember, you can always go for the big D. But right now you are in position to go to the next logical step, Plan B, and do so for two reasons. 1. For YOU. Protect yourself from further pain and loss of love for WH. 2. Push WH off the fence. Now comes the moment of truth, where he has to decide where he wants to be.

You know what is best for you, but in SAA it says that by properly executing Plan B, you will know in your heart that you have done everything in your power to save your marriage.

You have your attorney, and he can get your affairs (financially speaking) in order so you are protected. But give it one more shot, try Plan B and be certain the D is the necessary option.

Be sure and understand the process. Plan B letter (a love letter) and all that explaining that he's welcome back, but not without boundries, and not without consequences for breaking the boundries. There are several other posts that have examples of great boundries. Marriage Counseling, No Contact, books to read, and more. You may even want to post in Plan A/B to get feeback on sample letters, etc.

You've worked so hard for so long. Divorce is forever (in most cases). Is 60 or 90 days more of Plan B too great a price to pay? Only you can answer that question.

IMHO, a well executed Plan B would get your WH's attention in a hurry.

God Bless
SD

chris and shattered, You're both right. I guess I kind of forgot about Plan B ... couldn't see straight through the red anger of my eyes. That's the Plan ... it's on to B. I did have a letter written in December (or sometime), so I'll dig that out and get it ready for him.

Thanks for the wake-up!

Well, what a difference a day makes. H and I went out for dinner and had a LONG talk. He definitely realizes how he has hurt me.

I had written him a lengthy letter in October about how much I love him, how much he is hurting me, how I know we're right together, etc. So I printed that out and gave it to him. We were in a restaurant and he couldn't really read it because it made him cry, but remembered what it said. (Plan B letter was ready to go, also.)

I told him how I had visited the lawyer, that I DON'T want to get divorced, but that I can't live with him being in love with her. I told him that I love him now more than ever and want us to be partners. He doesn't understand why either OW or me would want him.

We talked forever and it's hard to put it succinctly, but I'll try. The long and short of it is that he does love me very much. When he thinks of the future, he only sees himself with me. He thinks the reason he hasn't done the things that I've requested regarding MC, lease, etc. is that he doesn't want to be told what to do. If you tell him what to do, he feels backed into a corner and will come out fighting. This is something that he has never understood about himself. However, he realizes that in this situation, he can't do this his way anymore.

We went to the townhome that he rented and sat in the chair that he bought ... the only thing that is in the entire place. We both cried tons! He told me he is willing to do whatever it takes to save our marriage. This is the first time that he has said that throughout this whole thing. I can tell that he really means it.

Throughout these many months, I have always known that we would be together. It was only in the recent days that I have doubted that. After last night, I am once again confident that we will get through this and be stronger and closer than ever.

The shoulder you all have offered for me to lean on has been immeasurably helpful! Thank you for being here when I needed you! Will keep you updated.

Yes, please keep us updated because more than likely it will be a long and tough recovery. Make sure to do the NC agreement and help him through his withdrawal that he is sure to have.

If he's willing to consider it, try Harley's program. We're on Selfish Demands -- resisting doing what your spouse tells you is right to do. That sounds like what your H is saying, that he is resistant. What Harley says is that everyone is resistant to being told what to do. I think the program is great, but I'm not sure we'll survive it. It does seem to be what we need, however. I feel like we are at last making some progress.

I don't know if you have children, but a friend of mine whose children are grown told me that the entire experience will help me in raising teenages.