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but I have to ask, is the quality of your marriage now such that you would willingly forgo it (and be divorced) then have experienced

the affair?

I must not understand the question....


Are you implying that the wonderful relationship I currently enjoy is ~because~ of the affair????

Surely you jest!

It is largely ~in spite of~ the affair.



And, do you think you learned nothing (of value) about yourself, life, etc. any differently by way of affair than you would of from divorce?

I have learned things of value, yes. And my Mother recently died, and I learned things of value....

But I would prefer my Mother were alive today, as I would prefer to never have been a betrayed spouse.

Your point?

Pep


<small>[ May 26, 2004, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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OK, NOW SNL, I have voted - just to see the results. And the results are equally glaring.

The vast, vast majority would have preferred divorce papers.

Give up SNL.

We will not help you find closure - not because we don't want you to, but because we want you to for the right reasons.

BTW, your theories for the demise of my marriage are WAY off. But I'm flattered that you have this need to disprove me personally. Coming from you, it merely reinforces my theories.

WAT

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I can't resist this one.....

I would definitely choose divorce over affair (even if I was the one to have the affair).

But I'll go even further.....

Illness that could be terminal VS Affair?? .....

If the terminal illness was mine, I would choose affair. If the illness was the WS's I would choose Illness instead of Affair--even if WS died from the illness, I would still choose that over an Affair.

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I'd still prefer ice cream

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I voted 2!!! ...I mean "too!!!"


<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

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Just come clean with your alter ago:

from this post on Divorced/Divorcing, April 21, 2004

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as posted by sufdb: <strong>My name is sufdb, I would appreciate your adherence to TOS and address me thusly. I remind you annonymity is something gauranteed to all who choose to post here, and whoever I might be in real life, or in another user ID is my business, and my business only, please respect that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By elspeth, 4/22/04, on DD: <strong>Have you considered not responding to folks who address you by other names? My hunch is, so long as you respond when being addressed as something other than sufdb, people will keep doing it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and by

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as posted by peppermint on your poll: <strong>I don't know, but I am guessing that the creator of this poll had an affair and still doesn't "get it". Am I right? I've never seen the name before, but the writing style is definitely very familiar. Is this a former poster with just a new name?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your agenda is clear. You're despreately trying to justify your infidelity. We won't bite. Give up and adopt yet again an alter ego that we can yet reveal.

WAT

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ark wrote regarding divorce -vs an affair:
...the amount of gross disrepect that is involved just on the nature of an affair is undeniably a factor that seperates the two on the spectrum...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and sufdb responded:
....how so.....gross disrespect abounds in marriages, especially long-term dysfunctional marriages....hard to see where that is preferable to the disrespect of a affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf,

I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about Divorce -vs an Affair.

Up above it appears you, suf, are citing a WS's justifications and his reasons he had his affair and then comparing THAT to the disrespect of an affair from a BS POV, instead of comparing it to Divorce as originally requested.

Why are you veering off into the WS's reasons/justifications for having an affair?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf wrote:
ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome ... but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, we just pretend these things don't happen and you can then sterilize and homogenize an affair to meet your poll requirements, interesting.

Just a guess, but are you also running for president?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">suf wrote:
ok, ok, disclaimer here re std's, that is a practical physical concern, I was speaking more to the psychological issues. Agreed the std thing is a biggy, and skews the outcome ... but I am not sure that is what particularly causes the emotional reaction....so, for the poll, don't consider std, the affair is all EA, or not std related physical contact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, we just pretend these things don't happen and you can then sterilize and homogenize an affair to meet your poll requirements, interesting.

Just a guess, but are you also running for president? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no, not anytime soon. res, you are making too much of this, I addressed your valid std issue....it is just a poll, and not particularly well designed, but arose from the common lament, of why didn't you just divorce me first. Clearly life doesn't work that way anywho, affairs/divorces/marital disharmony are very messy places, which are often driven by a huge emotional component, which by definition is not rational.... The only um..."wondering" was whether the pain of a affair was offset by the growth opportunities, such opportunities being less likely to occur when divorce simply applied for.

Instead of addressing this (which could be more about my setting up the poll clearly.....or whatever), many responded more about their own sitch, and the pain vs less pain.....actually this outcome in itself is quite interesting and revealing about the temperament of those populateing this site... But I am not sure what it means, except that pain is more important than growth as a concern.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> Just come clean with your alter ago:

from this post on Divorced/Divorcing, April 21, 2004

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as posted by sufdb: <strong>My name is sufdb, I would appreciate your adherence to TOS and address me thusly. I remind you annonymity is something gauranteed to all who choose to post here, and whoever I might be in real life, or in another user ID is my business, and my business only, please respect that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By elspeth, 4/22/04, on DD: <strong>Have you considered not responding to folks who address you by other names? My hunch is, so long as you respond when being addressed as something other than sufdb, people will keep doing it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and by

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">as posted by peppermint on your poll: <strong>I don't know, but I am guessing that the creator of this poll had an affair and still doesn't "get it". Am I right? I've never seen the name before, but the writing style is definitely very familiar. Is this a former poster with just a new name?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your agenda is clear. You're despreately trying to justify your infidelity. We won't bite. Give up and adopt yet again an alter ego that we can yet reveal.

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...you haven't a clue wat, why in the world does this interest you anyways?

re the poll, it is just a poll for the reasons stated, talked about in this thread.....in what convoluted manner can you make the case this is to validate infidelity? Infidelity is an extremely stupid decision to make, but completely understandable (read Harley, he explains all this adequately), but if it is part of the typical human experience (and it is so universal as to be "normal" behavior, and everyone capable), so maybe though one would not "choose" this (as bs or ws) it still may be a substantial growth opportunity, and I am curious why that is not more recognized....and wonder if perhaps lamenting and commiserateing about this simply makes it worse than it really is... But judgeing by those who would choose divorce, apparently the pain isn't percieved as worth the gain.

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"The only um..."wondering" was whether the pain of a affair was offset by the growth opportunities, such opportunities being less likely to occur when divorce simply applied for."

Don't follow. I'm not going through a DV, but everyone tells me that it would be harder than what I am going through. Hard 2 believe that from the trenches, but I accept that it is probably true.

Again, the issue is honesty versus dishonesty. The "right thing 2 do" would be 2 end the M and go through a healing time 2 learn the difference between loneliness and soli2de, before getting involved with someone else - 2 "get one's ENs met" through a desperate act of extreme selfishness and cruelty.

Are the oppor2nities for growth greater after an A than after a DV? I sure as heck doubt it. Different, but not greater or lesser. Dependent on the sitch, perhaps.

This pole is a goofy excercise in mental mas2rbation, IMVHO, a Rube Goldberg distraction from one's own responsibility 2 take charge of their personal growth, no matter their life si2ation.

Persevere,
-ol' 2long

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

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long...Again, the issue is honesty versus dishonesty.

sufdb...not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)...however, a pattern of regular deciet in a marriage would suggest one is not marriage material....but so would a pattern of infidelity, financial irresponsibiity, pattern of slovenliness, pattern of neglect, nagging....lots of patterns....all deal breakers.

long...The "right thing 2 do" would be 2 end the M and go through a healing time 2 learn the difference between loneliness and soli2de, before getting involved with someone else - 2 "get one's ENs met" through a desperate act of extreme selfishness and cruelty.

sufdb...there is no right to it. Perhaps you meant be good advice for sound psychological reasons....I agree...but generally we are not adequately trained re relationships as young adults, and are not equipped to consider that option. Rather instead we are "encouraged" to remain married no matter what....and that divorce is yucky. So we hang on until the inevitable happens, that is just plain ole psych 101. If one relationship fails (the married one, even though not officially recognized with a divorce decree), humans will seek another, and so it has been since time began.

long...Are the oppor2nities for growth greater after an A than after a DV? I sure as heck doubt it. Different, but not greater or lesser. Dependent on the sitch, perhaps.

sufdb...It is situational...but in the general case affairs offer more growth, precisely cause they are more traumatic, and have more issues...the complexity generates the growth.

long...This pole is a goofy excercise in mental mas2rbation, IMVHO, a Rube Goldberg distraction from one's own responsibility 2 take charge of their personal growth, no matter their life si2ation.

sufdb....your colorful dismissal of my poll is noted, but not concured with. I think it is a useful topic to consider, and can affect ones perception/attitude in a positive manner.

<small>[ May 27, 2004, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

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nsso... sufdb, the problem with your grasping the idea of someone preferring divorce over an affair is that you're looking at the affair situation through your own experiences.

sufdb...we all are, such is life, our understanding of relationship issues cannot help but be biased by our relationship experiences...best we can do is muddle through as open minded as possible. The poll was an attempt to generalize some data...but the recipients (by their own admission) are tending to answer based on pain, rather than growth...but that itself is an answer.

nsso.. My ex's A took place without any major warning that things were going downhill. We had sex regularly, slept in the same bed, ate dinner together and attended events together. I had no idea when the A started initially and only began to see signs of it(missed time, him not wanting sex, ect.)when it was already a few months into it. It came completely from left field and there was no emotional detachment from my end.

sufdb...I agree (again) how one experiences a divorce is situational...but that isn't what the poll is about, it is a rational question, but it is being answered emotionally. In your case the poll is still valid....by experienceing (and surviving) the shock of a "less" emotionally ready affair, you had to slay certain demons...those demons would not have been raised had you simply recieved divorce papers (whether you reconcille or not in either case is irrelevant). Do you see any value in slaying those dragons relative to the cost (ie pain)? The old whatever doesn't kill you, makes you stronger thingy.

nsso...I definately would have preferred him going through the divorce route first instead of humliating me behind my back to people I knew,

sufdb...Isn't humiliation a self-inflicted injury? You can't be humiliated unless you choose to respond thusly to a circumstance?

nsso...spending our hard earned in our joint account money on gifts and dates for another woman behind my back

sufdb...would it have made any financial difference had he taken the money to vegas, blown it gambling, and then filed divorce papers?

nsso...Being served would have hurt but I would not have been given the same degree of baggage to be rid of afterward had he just ended our marriage instead of denegrating me before finally filing. It was like the final hard kick in the [censored] before throwing me out the door.

sufdb...yes, this is my point, is that baggage of value in your life (the lemonade thingy). And is it..or not, a matter of fact...or attitude? (half full, half empty thingy).

nsso...I'm a very positive person overall and do look at the glass as half-full. I do see it as a learning experience but quite honestly I wish I never had to learn that even the most trusted person in your life can turn on you and do horrible things to you. I know it now and so really don't 100% trust anyone anymore. Lesson learned.

sufdb...so you had divorce, never learned that, and in your less painful ignorance, not exercised enough diligence in a remarriage, and ended up with an affair visited on you then....is that more likely without the experience of an affair...only a divorce? And if so (because obviously it is) is the risk of this ignorance worth it or not in terms of the pain of an affair?

nsso...I am happy to be out of the situation, grateful for the tremendous resiliency it gave me but really a plain old divorce would have been preferable if given a choice.

sufdb...then in hindsite, answer this. Would you give up what you had learned from the affair (and that resilientcy) for the easier out of a divorce? Or do you think the lessons learned would be the same (I don't...the differece in experienceing is just too big....of course that is why the pain difference is large too, and why people are opting for the smaller pain).

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Good grief, I knew this stuff sounded familiar. I think WAT's right. Sorry I even responded. Now I feel icky by association.

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Can I choose the A OP?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> Give up, SNL.

Your desperate attempts to justify your decisions are glaring.

These people are answering honestly.

For the record, since I didn't answer your poll, I would have MUCH prefered honesty. In essence, this is what your poll is about: Do you prefer honesty or lies from pond scum?

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ditto.

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Suf, all I can do is answer you honestly. That's what I did. I guess you can try to make anything seem like a postive learning experience. Hell, if you want to stretch it out beyond reason you can also say being sexually assualted as a kid was a learning experience for me since I learned that being a female is a risky venture.

You can also stretch out your thinking to say it's my fault the sexual assualt hurt me since I choose to let it hurt me, same as my feeling over the humiliation of my ex's A and the way people were covering up for him and laughing at me behind my back.

I'm not sure why you can't just take it at face value when I say the cons of going through the A experience way outweighed the pros. What I learned from the experience was not something that really benefitted my life and made me a bit more cynical about relationships in general. Sure it put my internal strengths to the test but you know I would rather not have had to waste precious months of my life having been mentally and emotionally distraught due to my ex's decision to chase some young tail.

You ask, what's the difference if he had blown our money in Vegas as opposed to spending it on OW? Let me tell you, there's absolutely nothing like getting a $500 bill on the card on which you are the primary holder(and thus responsible for the bill) from Zales jewelry for the diamond bracelet your H bought for his mistress. It's quite an experience and no it's not the same thing.

You seem so unwilling to accept that it's human nature to prefer to avoid large doses of pain and that if someone does they're just "rule makers" or short sighted or negative. You seem very unwilling to accept that people are not automatons able to just process extremely negative experiences and make them postives. Some things are just bad no matter how much you try to sugar coat them.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sufdb...not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what hat you pulled that rabbit out of but you are dead wrong.

In fact you could read 100 books on infidelity by the top selling authors and 99 of them will tell you the lies are often harder for the Bs to get over than the sexual part of the affair.

You have built your entire argument on a false premise.

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Divorce vs affair, which would you choose? That is the question. Making good choices according to every guide I could find about good decision making involves looking at all sides of the equation...possible opportunity, but also assessing possible loss. Only considering one or the other....pain for instance, isn't very wise...it can lead to fear and insecurity. However, only considering opportunity isn't any wiser....such decisions can be implusive, irresponsible or risky. Most of us, will try to weigh both the pros and the cons suf....and yet you insist that if we even consider the potential losses that we're being negative. I don't think we are. I think we're being smart and that it IS a more rational, approach to decision making. Affairs are a good example of decisions based on gain....with with little or no attention to loss. Staying in a bad marriage might be a decision based on loss with no thought for opportunity. There are times when the potential for gain is so great that risk is ignored. There are also instances where the potential loss is so great that any gains are not seen as very attractive. Rational decision making is about exploring both of those options. You asked us to do that....and most of us, were willing to weigh opportunity and loss and still decide that we would rather have the papers.

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ufdb..."not really, all humans lie, that is the least of the issues (is a given an affair involves deceit)"

Yes really. Not all humans lie. It IS possible (and probably necessary) 2 be private without being secretive - lying by omission - but the reasonable bounds of privacy within a M are a lot narrower than they are in dealing with acquaintences in daily life.

In the end, after a DV or an A, the measure of just how much an oppor2nity one makes of the experience is how much have you grown from it? Ideally, even DV'd former partners should be able 2 respect one another. Most DV'd 2ples sadly choose 2 hate each other and play painful resentment games for the rest of their lives. Similarly, 2ples that stay 2gether after infidelity damned well better have grown, lest the mistake gets repeated by one of them in the fu2re. Ufdb, how have you and your xW grown from your experiences?

Also in the end, it's not even a 2uestion of whether one would prefer DV or the A, because here we are with the hands we've been dealt (and most of us will have 2 agonize over BOTH decisions over the course of healing from the A anyway). It isn't compiling statistics about how we'd reinvent the past if we couldn't (because we can't), it's what we do with the present moment and how we plan for the fu2re, that's important.

-ol' 2long

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