Low said:
"Jesus didn't supercede any of the law...He fulfilled it. That tells me that the law and our response to it is more about faith and attitude than it is about following the rules strictly. "

And Jesus often said this instruction after rebuking, "Go and sin no more".

I think most people that are quick to judge homosexuals and condemn their "lifestyle" do not understand how much condemnation, ridicule, and self-loathing they incur. Most of the gay people I know have had these feelings since they were very young. They didn't understand how they could be feeling this way, they didn't think they were "normal", they thought that there was something wrong with them. They ask themselves, Is this a tempation? They pray, Jesus, please forgive me for feeling this way & allow me to put this "sin" away & help me become the person you want me to be each day.

They don't "want" to be gay. They don't "want" to live a life in "sin". They cry out, God, please help me! But it doesn't go away. If anything, it's even stronger the older they get. This was the case for my sister. All her life she was told that she looked like a boy & why didn't she do things other girls liked to do, why didn't she wear her hair the way other girls did, why didn't she like to wear dresses, why didn't she just go out with that boy over there? So she did the "right" thing. She dated boys, she kept praying for Jesus to remove these feelings, she prayed for God to show her what her path should be. All the while, she couldn't get rid of these feelings for girls.

She then got an age where she was lonely for a companion on earth. She knew God was there, He was guiding her but as most humans, she wanted to feel romance & love and all that She prayed and asked God if she was meant to be alone for the rest of her life because if she was, she would try to be content with that. A few months later, a woman was introduced to her through a mutual friend. They met, spent some time with each other and what my sister had intended on friendship initially escalated into something more. Did I mention that my sister had remained a virgin this whole time?

This woman is more spiritual than my sister. She has led my sister to read more from her Bible (they read to each other every night), they pray together, they worship together, they raise their children together. Are their children gay? No way! They have 2 girls and these two girls love boys!!!!!

My sister & her partner have been together for 3 years and those girls love the heck out of my sister. They call her Mommy ______ and would be devastated if she was taken from their life. They do not see these women as gays but rather two loving mothers who help nurture them, care for them, and show them lots of love and affection who also happen to love each other.

BTW, I don’t see it written anywhere in the Bible that Adam & Eve had a marital ceremony. I don’t remember anything about them taking vows. Does anyone know when the first recorded wedding ceremony was and who got married? Just curious.

Adam and Eve had their own set of problems, and I guess for your argument, they had zero choice over whether they would be gay or not! I guess we are lucky they felt loving toward one another.

I happen to think that it is fine for those who choose that life or are somehow found in that "predisposition", and sure do think it must feel like it is a pressure to dispel the things that seem to follow gayness as a curse.

However, the Bible says no. And if you wish to change what it says and honor your friends or families wishes to be wed in the church, then you will alter what is said in the Bible. Then you are making it into a cult which is perverse to the way of the Bible.

Last I heard, and that's been a while ago to this number has probably increased, but I have read in reputable journals that there are over 30 KNOWN variations on the 23rd chromasome...the one that determines sex, among other things.

This isn't a black and white issue, as some would like to think. What about the children that are born with BOTH sets of genitalia? The doctors and parents have no way of knowing which sex is the "appropriate" one for the child, so they have to guess. They guess, and remove one set of genitalia. What if they're wrong? What if they remove the male genitalia, and the child grows up to have male tendencies?

Consider that seriously for a moment, and then consider the possibility that there is the same type of occurances, but without "outer physical signs"...i.e. the multiple genitalia. For example, is it completely unbelievable that there could be instances where a person physically develops to resemble a woman, but on an other than physical state, possesses male tendancies? It isn't for me.

I am a Christian, and I try and live as Christ taught. To me, the most common theme among his many parables and teachings was this...That we all have enough problems and commit enough sin on our own that we should worry about making our own lives better, and making ourselves more worthy in the eyes of God, rather than waste any of our preciously little time here judging others and pointing out what we see as flaws or errors in judgement on their part.

When you are perfect, and live a sinless life, then you have the right, and the duty to judge others. Not until.

Bob

Who on this thread has judged?

There are a lot of people who seem to just be trying things out. I wonder if sexual abuse is a factor in this at all. Genetics are strong components to predispositions in many things. If it were genetic, then you would have an aunt, uncle with the same predisposition.

What is the answer? I guess some are going to rewrite their own Bible to suit their own needs.

Birth defects can be devastating to new parents. Seems like the parents are forced to choose the sex of the child, not sure what they should be doing in those cases! Waiting on it is a possibility or going with the best developed organs, if one set of organs was not well formed. Perhaps now, they may check the genetic coding and choose the sex that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you are perfect, and live a sinless life, then you have the right, and the duty to judge others. Not until.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not entirely correct, Plumb Bob. let me illustrate what I mean...

A crusty old pitching coach is incapable of throwing 100 mph fast balls but he has been entrusted with developing those who can because he knows a good or bad pitch when he sees it.

The Bible often gives us enough info to be able to call "pitches" even though we aren't capable of throwing perfect pitches ourselves.

Your statement makes the assumption the he/she who is doing the judging is using themselves as the standard. Christ is the standard. I'm a former adulterer. That might make me a bit more compassionate towards adulterers but it doesn't make me any more qualified to judge adultery as wrong than anyone else. The standard was set by Christ.

So, there are those parts of a person's spirit that no man can ever judge, but the outward manifestations of that spirit - actions - are and should be routinely scrutinized by humanity.

Regarding not being able to choose one's sexual orientation...

Humans are born predisposed to all sorts of sinful behavior. We can't help it. Does that release us from the obligation to try to live right? No, the ability to choose to do what right, even when it conflicts with our base drives is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

Perhaps I was born with a predisposition towards polyamory? That would mean that adultery was normal for me wouldn't it? Would anyone here be willing to support me in this supposition?

Perhaps I can convince my state to allow polygamous weddings...

Low

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are a lot of people who seem to just be trying things out. I wonder if sexual abuse is a factor in this at all. Genetics are strong components to predispositions in many things. If it were genetic, then you would have an aunt, uncle with the same predisposition. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not "Would", but "Could". It's not an absolute or a given. But I'm sure there are plenty of nephews and nieces of gay people who have an Aunt and an Uncle who have the same sexual preference.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is the answer? I guess some are going to rewrite their own Bible to suit their own needs </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Rewrite? Not necessarily, although it's been done thousands of times already. Which Bible do you read, Cardinal? The original? Or do you read a later translation? Are you sure, absolutely sure, that it has been interpreted correctly?

I don't think a constant examination of the meanings in the Bible, given new scientific information that we possess, which, by itself is a gift from God, is a bad thing. God gave us the brains, curiousity, and motivation to seek the truth...is it wrong to use those gifts to examine all things...including the Bible and it's meanings? Literalism seems like an awfully lazy way to go about your spiritual life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Birth defects can be devastating to new parents. Seems like the parents are forced to choose the sex of the child, not sure what they should be doing in those cases! Waiting on it is a possibility or going with the best developed organs, if one set of organs was not well formed. Perhaps now, they may check the genetic coding and choose the sex that way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Waiting on it...until when?! Puberty? How do you raise the child until then...as a boy AND a girl? Underdeveloped organs aren't an indicator, otherwise what would we do with every little boy whose testicles don't drop? Assume they're to be a girl and perform the "appropriate" surgery? And, given the number of variances in the chromasomes that determine sex, it is impossible to perform a "test" to help with the determination.

That's just the point. There are millions of variables here that people either don't know about, or don't want to acknowledge, because it requires thought and introspection. It is easier to say, "Well, the Bible says this", so that you don't have to think about it. Some people use the "faith" card as a means to avoid facing tough issues.

Bob

Wow...interesting stuff. Along with being born with both sets of genitalia, there are some people that are genetically male but physically female. My psych instructor taught about that--I had never head of it before. He said that for a genetically male embryo to become physically male, the conditions have to be just right in the womb--the hormone levels in the womb have to be just right for a boy to grow male genitalia--if not, the baby will be physically female, but genetically male.

I also learned that there are specific differences between homosexuals' and heterosexuals' brains that have been studied (using PET scans I believe). Personally, I have believed for a long time that sexual preference is determined before birth in the vast majority of cases. Maybe that's why I have a problem with thinking that God frowns on homosexuality. If God creates a person that is "wired" that way, how can it be a sin? Aren't all children born innocent? And how does that come into play when the child is illegitimate?

I do think that children are innocent, and what we teach them is of all importance. We have the responsibility on our shoulders as the parents to guide them and to keep them safe. Our investment in them is the most important investment. Other than our marriage that is.

What we choose to do with our lives is up to each of us. As a WS that continue to choose his A partner, because he has fallen in love with her, and he shuns his own W and offspring! So, shall he get his rewards for that. And the family feels the pain too.

Life is not a fair game it seems. I really think that choices we make have an awful lot to do with the kind of luck we get! JMO.

This topic is interesting.....both socially,morally and legalisticlly.

I wonder......the other day I was listening to a talk radio station and this question was brought up. If GAY marriages are legalized, does that then mean a father may marry his son? or an aunt her neice? because if it is......

The GOVERNMENT is going to lose a lot of revenue!!!

Think about it.....NO MORE INHERITANCE TAX!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If on your dying bed...your a zillionare and want to leave your relative your money without tax burdons....MARRY THEM!!!

Do you think the Gov has thought of this TWIST to gay marriages????

Laws on this issue were written simply because of the effects on "children birthed" by close relationships....so then what would stop relatives from doing this????ie. m/m and w/w no possibilities of conceiving a child with malformations or retardation.

Marriage is becoming a non-issue in our society. That is my personal opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

What do you THINK ABOUT THIS???

Blessings,
Atruheart

ATH, I think that you have lost your bubble!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Atruheart, I think it's a very big leap from gay marriage to incestuous marriage. Honestly, I've never understood how people associate the two. Incest laws apply to same sex violations as much as they do opposite sex violations.

I really don't understand how making gay marriage legal denigrates marriage in general. Can two homosexuals not love each other as much as a man and a woman can? Is their capacity to love somehow less? And why should they not have the same rights to be legally united as heterosexuals?

I understand the religious standpoint, but from a legal standpoint, why should marriage (or civil union) be denied to someone because they are homosexual?

I think this is Cardinals point.....

homosexual unions perhaps, should be performed as civil ceremonies...

The Bible is quite clear in its writings regarding marriage between man and woman, so therefore, perhaps in Cardinals understanding, they should not be wed in a church that uses the Bible as its foundation....

marry? yes.....but since it is the civil laws that are being changed and not Biblical laws, then civil ceremonies might be for the best...

just an opinion of an opinion...


Dylan

That is what I did say! Thanks soulloss.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I knew that cardinal! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And I agree with you! I feel that the choice to perform a religious marriage ceremony should stay in the hands it is now--the minister's.

Dohkay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by luvbird:
<strong> Can two homosexuals not love each other as much as a man and a woman can? Is their capacity to love somehow less? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s play “Inter-changeable nuns, oops, I mean Nouns”

So - If a MAN can love a WOMAN
then why can’t:
A MAN love a MAN
A WOMAN love a WOMAN
A MAN love a SHEEP
A WOMAN love a ( ______) fill in the blank yourself – this could get interesting.

It’s a HUGE step for gay’s to be legally married – an enormous leap for a spiritual one.
Where’s it stop? Not here I’d bet (and regret). In fact, all you have to do, is sit back, wait and see.

Keep it to the JP’s, not our churches. I think that's well documented.

Ok, now I think I understand your position.

Sorry, I got a little frustrated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Plumb Bob:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are a lot of people who seem to just be trying things out. I wonder if sexual abuse is a factor in this at all. Genetics are strong components to predispositions in many things. If it were genetic, then you would have an aunt, uncle with the same predisposition. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not "Would", but "Could". It's not an absolute or a given. But I'm sure there are plenty of nephews and nieces of gay people who have an Aunt and an Uncle who have the same sexual preference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from dean hamer's study in the 90s:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Hamer and colleagues studied the family
histories of 114 gay men and found that their
brothers, maternal uncles, and maternal male
cousins were more likely to be homosexual than
would be expected among the general male
population. In some families, gay relatives could
be traced back for three generations. Because the
homosexual uncles and male cousins of the gay
subjects were raised in different households, the
scientists hypothesized that a genetic factor was
involved. Furthermore, the maternal link suggested
that homosexuality might be associated with the X
chromosome, which is the sex-linked chromosome
that men inherit only from their mothers.

Explicit evidence for a genetic link was obtained
by studying the X chromosome DNA of 40 pairs of
gay brothers. The scientists used a technique
called linkage mapping to search for patterns of
similarity in the genetic information of related
individuals. Thirty-three of the gay sibling pairs
had coinherited genetic markers in the same
chromosome region called Xq28, suggesting that 65
percent of the families studied were transmitting
a gene for homosexual orientation. ...The
scientists are also studying the families of
lesbians. Preliminary results suggest that female
sexual orientation is genetically influenced, but
DNA markers have not been detected yet.

The study is titled "A Linkage Between DNA Markers
on the X Chromosome and Male Sexual Orientation."
The authors are Dean H. Hamer, Ph.D., Stella Hu,
M.A., Victoria L. Magnuson, Ph.D., Nan Hu, M.D.,
and Angela M. L. Pattatucci, Ph.D.[/code]</blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">