Plumb Bob, don’t go... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Please read the 2 replies I’ve send you on this thread.

Thank you,
Suzet

<small>[ June 15, 2004, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Plumb Bob, I see the other thread was ended, so I will send my reply here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Plumb Bob
<strong>Suzet,

Please don't worry about offending me or anything like that. I guess I was worried that you were "going over to the dark side". As I read your posts, I was appreciative of another voice seeming to suggest that God gave us brains to use. We are to use these to discern right from wrong; including proper and improper interpretations of the Bible. If you read through this entire thread you will see that I am a Christian (albeit not a very good one by some standards), who believes that judgement is something that we should all practice upon ourselves to a much greater extent than we do others. I grow eternally tired of those who seem to want to use themselves as the grand example of how others should act; others who think that because they have concluded, via THEIR interpretation of the Bible, what is right and wrong, and therefore they have the right to tell everyone else what is right and wrong.

Everyone's life is different, as is everyone's relationship to God. The "rules" for my relationship with God are as unique as my relationship with God. So are yours, and Cardinals, and whoever's.

So, please, don't worry about my past. I haven't been abusive to my W or kids, nor was I a victim. I used that scenario as an example that there will always be conditions, to a rational person, that will permit otherwise improper decisions.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plumb, I see I was mistaken about your situation and that you’re not a woman as I thought! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Anyway, thanks for your reply. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think it was a very good idea using the scenario about the abusive spouse as an example. Life would be much less complicated if everything was a just ‘black’ and ‘white’ and if there were no ‘gray’ areas in between. I agree there's always conditions that will permit otherwise improper decisions. That’s very common. Take abortion as another example: We all know that abortion is wrong and an action of murder in God’s eyes, but what about a innocent woman/girl who gets pregnant because of rape or incest?

I have the same believe system than you regarding judgment: I also believe it's something we should practice upon OURSELVES to a much greater extent than we do on others. That’s why I’ve said originally that I try to abide by God’s laws; “standards” and values for my OWN life and be very careful to make my own comments and judgments about sensitive & complex issues.

Take care,
Suzet

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 07:06 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

I appreciate your concern. Thanks for extending the friendly hand.

When I said, "I'm Out", I was referring to that particular thread, because I was getting tired of beating my head against the wall, arguing with those who are unwilling to consider any opinion other than their own.

I think we are very similar in our beliefs as far as this thread went. As I said in my last post on the other thread, I believe that we should work towards living the way God wants us to, but I also believe that we were given brains for a reason. I don't believe that there is ONE WAY for all people to believe. Every person has a different relationship to God that is as unique as they are...so who among us can tell another that their way is wrong? It makes no sense to me.

Thanks again for the post; I look forward to talking to you more in the future.

Bob

You’re welcome Bob! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I’ve just send a post regarding ‘judging people’ on another thread and I would like to hear your personal opinion and if it make sense to you, since the other poster think my viewpoint is irrational. Here is the post I’ve send regarding this topic:

There is a huge difference between:

1. Judging actions and
2. Judging a person and/or the worth of a person in God’s eyes...

You can judge a wrong action WITHOUT judging the person as such, but it’s something else if you judge the whole person because of the wrong actions.

IMHO, judging a wrong action is not ‘judging’ in the Biblical sense of the word but judging a person IS. For instance, we all know what Eric has done is wrong, but no one have the right to judge Eric as a person or attack him as a person about what he has done.

Giving labels to people and putting them in categories is not the same as judging wrong actions. Certain actions is only one small part of the whole person and labeling someone according to certain actions is wrong and judgemental IMO. For example, there is a difference between saying: “You are an idiot” (judging the person) and “That was a dumb thing to do” (judging the action). Or, "You're a selfish person!" (judging person) and "you're acting so selfish!" (judging action). I can’t see what is so irrational about this viewpoint.

Sorry, double post.

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

I agree with you completely. For example, I have a teenage daughter right now who is making some bad choices, but I don't think that makes her a bad person. She's young, immature in many ways, and feels she needs to make her own decisions. It's painful to watch, but we have to allow her to make the choices. We do not, however, stop loving her, or give up on her, merely because of her bad choices. If anything, it causes us to examine our love for her, and improve it in some ways.

I also posted on the other thread a similar statement about the difference between civil judgements, and moral judgements. Civil judgements state that an action you have performed was wrong or against a law. Civil judgements are absolutely necessary for a society to survive. Moral judgements say that you're a bad person. I don't recall any time when Christ himself labled someone a "bad person"; he may have chastised them for their actions or bad choices, but He saw that they still had worth and value in God's eyes. I mean, wasn't that what His whole mission was? To show that we all make mistakes, but that doesn't lessen our value to God, if we admit our mistakes, try to correct our actions, and then move on?

I agree with you 100%.

Bob

<small>[ June 17, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Plumb Bob ]</small>

Butting in here...

I'd thought you were "out" of MB altogether, also. I don't know you but enjoyed your posts on the other thread. Post more.

Hey Bob and Suzet!

I apologize for snooping on your thread, but I just wanted to say that I agree with the both of you and really appreciate your outlook. It's refreshing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Going back to the homosexuality issue, I guess I have a very difficult time viewing it as sinful or immoral. Lying, cheating, stealing, mudering...yep...I can see it no problem. But what is this fascination with what an individual chooses to do with her/her genitals? Providing noone is getting hurt (as in the cases of adultery, rape, etc) why do some feel the need to judge and condemn what goes on in another's bedroom?

I'm just seeking your opinions on this, because you both appear to be open-minded and rational.

Turtlehead,

Thanks, I look forward to sharing some viewpoints in the future.

Jilliana,

I don't know why some people think the way they do...hell, I don't even know why I think the way I do sometimes.

For whatever reason, Cardinal took my tone as aggressive in the last thread, when I really didn't mean it that way. I thought I was raising some valid questions, and not specifically of her, but of people in general. I did ask her what Bible she read out of, but not because I really want to know, but because I was trying to make the point that there are many different translations and interpretations of the Bible out there; so many, in fact, that you could state you were following God's word by following your Bible, but another translation might offer a different translation.

Point in fact...The Revised Standard Version of the Bible had errors in it. In one passage it stated that (and I'm paraphrasing here since I don't have my RSV right here with me) "Not a sparrow falls from the tree, that it isn't the will of God." After further research and study of the native language, the NEW Standard Revised Version reads, "not a sparrow falls from the tree, that the Father does not know about it". Willing something and knowing something are two completely different things; and who knows how many different arguments were caused by that one mis-interpretation?

I am willing to listen to other's rational debates and arguments, but "because it says so in the Bible" only works so much of the time. There are THOUSANDS of statements in the Bible that can be directly contradicted in other places in the Bible. Doesn't that lead to contemplation, prayer, and research?

Hope to talk to you all, and others, soon.

Bob

Bob, Turtlehead & Jilliana,

Thanks to you all for posting! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Jilliana, you’re welcome and please feel free to post here at any time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I welcome any insights and opinions!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Blump Bob:
<strong>Civil judgements state that an action you have performed was wrong or against a law. Civil judgements are absolutely necessary for a society to survive. Moral judgements say that you're a bad person. I don't recall any time when Christ himself labled someone a "bad person"; he may have chastised them for their actions or bad choices, but He saw that they still had worth and value in God's eyes. I mean, wasn't that what His whole mission was? To show that we all make mistakes, but that doesn't lessen our value to God, if we admit our mistakes, try to correct our actions, and then move on?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, you are right and this is so absolutely true and in line with my own believe system as well! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Civil judgements are indeed necessary and the judging of ACTIONS, whereas moral judgements is the judging of a PERSON and a persons’ WORTH in God’s eyes. This is also in line with the following verses from the Holy Bible (New Testament) which I use as a guideline and the ‘truth’ for my life regarding moral judgement:

Mt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Lk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Rom 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Rom 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

1Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

1Cor 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Jms 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

Jms 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

Jms 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jilliana:
<strong>Going back to the homosexuality issue, I guess I have a very difficult time viewing it as sinful or immoral. Lying, cheating, stealing, mudering...yep...I can see it no problem. But what is this fascination with what an individual chooses to do with her/her genitals? Providing noone is getting hurt (as in the cases of adultery, rape, etc) why do some feel the need to judge and condemn what goes on in another's bedroom?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jilliana, I agree that in general, people are more judgmental about homosexuality than with any other sins. I have a BIG problem with this since IMO, all sins are equal in God’s eyes and no sin is greater than the other... In fact, I know the Bible talks about the “7 greatest sins in God’s eyes” (I don’t have the exact phrases with me right now – I’ll see if I can find it during the weekend and then post it here). These 7 sins don’t include homosexuality, but yet, in society, homosexuality is viewed as THE greatest sin and the ONE thing people debate and commenting about the most. I can't understand why.

As I’ve said on Cardinal’s thread, I have empathy and compassion for homosexuals who want to live a God-feared life but struggle because of their sexual orientation...and then, sometimes I wondering if God wasn’t referring to the rebellious and unreligious people who choose living as homosexuals. It is something else if people practise homosexuality out of rebellion or lack of morals, but what about homosexuals (good and religious people) who was really born that way and can’t help their sexual orientation? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> As I’ve said on the other thread, just as people can’t judge a person for divorcing their abusive spouse and marrying a loving partner, how can they judge a homosexual who needs a loving, supportive life-partner next to his/her side and don’t want to go through life alone? Is it then really suspected from such an individual to live his/her life lonely & isolated because of his/her sexual orientation? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I don’t know...

Me and my H know about a homosexual couple (2 woman) who're living a cleaner and more conservative life than most heterosexual people I know off… They don’t fool around, they are loyal to each other and they live together as a couple for more than 20 years now... They have high moral codes, pray together, go to church together etc., but the only problem is they are homosexual... So, my question is, how can these people be judged because of their sexual orientation…something they didn’t choose themselves? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> These things are complicated and sensitive and I believe our loving God is the ONLY one who can judge, since he is the ONLY one who truly know people's hearts and circumstances...

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 03:34 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

When you quote scripture, its real important to quote it in CONTEXT, lest you give a false impression. Scripture is not the cafeteria program where you pick and choose verses out of context to suit your personal tastes.

For example, you posted the following TWO verses in an attempt to prove your personal opinion [it says nothing of the sort]:

Mt 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mt 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

And then you stopped. Why?

Because you know that if folks saw the next verses that it says something entirely different than what you are saying? It is not a admonition against judging at all, it an admonition against HYPOCRISY:

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

See, it doesn't say not to judge at all. It says remove the plank from your eye BEFORE YOU JUDGE, lest you be a hypocrite.

Very different from the picture you are trying to present. And I won't address any of the other scriptures you posted because none of them say what you are trying to say.

Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us not to judge. In fact, we have a mandate to judge with righteous judgement. It's preposterous to suggest that its a SIN to say that a person who murders is a MURDERER and you can't possibly substantiate such a claim.

John 7
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Ephesians 5
11Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.


Proverbs 19
28 An ungodly witness scorneth judgment: and the mouth of the wicked devoureth iniquity.

This is the weirdest thread. Why are y'all on here talking ABOUT people to whom you have had debates? You are having strange ONE-SIDED debates with folks who already agree with you. Shouldn't you be addressing this to the person with whom you have an issue? Surely you aren't under the illusion that others are not reading this public thread?

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

hmmm <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: cardinal ]</small>

ML,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is the weirdest thread. Why are y'all on here talking ABOUT people to whom you have had debates? You are having strange ONE-SIDED debates with folks who already agree with you. Shouldn't you be addressing this to the person with whom you have an issue? Surely you aren't under the illusion that others are not reading this public thread? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not debating others in absentia. I have referred to a couple of things that I have said in other threads, but that was all. I was asked my opinion on Suzet's reply to someone on some other thread and I gave my opinion.

It is my opinion here that we are not HAVING A DEBATE WITH ANYONE, except possibly you, now that you've crawled in here. We were having a nice friendly discussion. That IS possible, you know.

As for debating people on their own threads it's kind of hard when they say things like...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you want to get fresh this thread will get closed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">…as if they have the power to close a thread where someone simply disagrees with them politely.

Oh, yes, and then there’s…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plumb Bob, let me be clear. I have talked with you in the past here. And I do not like you. I think that you are arrogant. So, if you dislike my methods, then the feeling is mutual. You can write what you will but I have nothing to say to you at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So any other posts on that thread weren’t addressed to her, as per her request, but then she posts to this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

And then, with all the arrogance that she thinks I bear, she states:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> THE END. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As if it’s “her” thread.

As we are learning again right here, right now, all threads are open to whoever wants to post to them, and once they are started they belong to no one other than Marriage Builders.

So to answer you question:

a) I have no interest in continuing to argue religion, or anything else, with you or Cardinal, as experience has shown me that neither of you are willing to listen to any opinion but your own. Thus, I don’t go into your threads anymore, nor will I in the future.

b) We have a right to talk about anything we want, within reason, here. Unfortunately, you have the right to barge in and try and disrupt what WAS a rational, polite conversation. What are you going to do now, ML, tell us that not only are we absolutely wrong in every aspect of our religious interpretations, but we’re also not doing MB correctly?

And people call me arrogant.

Bob

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 08:57 AM: Message edited by: Plumb Bob ]</small>

Oh, and to everyone who is wondering what it was that Cardinal posted, it was a line saying something like all of us who don't want to be judgemental should check out this website...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/009/18.40.html

It's an article titled, "The Next Sexual Revolution".

Nice try, though, Cardinal.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Scripture is not the cafeteria program where you pick and choose verses out of context to suit your personal tastes.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. So what do you think of the poly-blend wearing individual?

Jill,

You talkin' CLOTHES or HAIR? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Bob

Hmmm....good question PB! One "wears" a wig, so theoretically the sin should apply.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Oooh, and what about all them there folks who like their bacon and ham-hocks?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Plumb Bob:
[QB]
So to answer you question:

a) I have no interest in continuing to argue religion, or anything else, with you or Cardinal, as experience has shown me that neither of you are willing to listen to any opinion but your own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, but I did listen. And I responded. Just because I didn't agree with you doesn't mean I didn't "listen." It just means I don't think you are right and challenged your opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are you going to do now, ML, tell us that not only are we absolutely wrong in every aspect of our religious interpretations, but we’re also not doing MB correctly?

And people call me arrogant.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">huh?

<small>[ June 18, 2004, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>