What a day! Thanks for joining this thread and giving me a united front. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I will win my family back or my sanity!! Or both if I'm lucky <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

How do I start? From the beginning I imagine.
I started off fine but exhausted. She knocked on the door as scheduled at 10:00AM. I asked he to enter thru the back door and I exited through the front door. I could feel her peering around the corner as I walked briskly out of sight. I didn't look back. I headout to the park where I was hoping I could collect my thoughts. It was hot out there!! I was in a dry, stupor...sleep depravation. I started seeing things and thought it was best not to drive. I went for a walk and I could see my W as she was at only 16, it was like a mirage I tell you. Now, I know how it feels to be in the desert and seeing crazy things that do not exist. It's amazing what your brain does when its denied it's most basic of requirments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

When I returned, my W pretended to be sleep on the couch and I gave my S the *SHHH sign. I went to the bedroom, inhaled and quickly collapsed. I guess I came home around 3:00PM, I was too exhausted to stay out any longer and yes I was concerned out the police wondering what I was doing letting my engine idle for the 3 hours I was out. After sleeping with the bedroom door locked, I woke up around 9PM. I didn't leave my room but I could hear my S and W talking. He asked if he could go talk to me, and I could hear her say she didn't think I was here.
"Sure he's here mom, you know he opened the door for us!"

When I heard this I knew what was happening. My W didn't want to leave! At this point, I'm both encouraged but upset. She hasn't committed to no contact, so I don't care if she doesn't want to leave. She wants to keep OM in her life more than she wants to be here. So at about 10 minutes later my son comes to the door knocking and I opened it. He told me all about his day with mom and bounced from subject to subject with all the excitement of a 6 year old. I had him carry a message to his mom, asking when she was leaving. I know that sounds bad, but WE hadn't discussed anything about her returning so WE need to know what the heck is going on.

She started talking to me! I told her a few days ago that I DIDN't want to discuss ANYTHING until she was ready to commit to NO CONTACT and work on our M. She tried to play the mind game, saying she had no idea I was in the house.

"I'm here you can go now...thanks"

There was silence and then it came.

"I'm not ready to leave now, I want to spend more time with S"

She was the one who said she didn't want to come back ONLY for the kids, in the process; making me feel like a piece of gum under her shoe. I wasn't falling for it. I didn't want to talk to her, I was talking from thru my door. I didn't want to see her. I had to. My S can't witness all of this crap he might internalize it and think dad is sending mommy away again. So I came out and I talked to her. I told her that it was unfair for her to back me in a corner and force me to see her or talk to her while she cannot commit to our M or our family. She told me she hasn't seen OM in weeks, and to me that was a revelation, but it also implied that she's in contact with him by other means. It was not a long discussion this time, I just restated that we love her and we miss her but we she must commit and stop punishing herself trying to hold onto the Fantasy of being with OM. Our real life M cant live up to some fantasy land R that she paints in her imagination w/ OM.

She was visibly shaken, moved and in turmoil but so was I. I also told her it was fundamentally wrong for her to "force' me to talk to her about anything other than the kids and finances, I'm the one taking care of OUR children, I need to be stable emotionally to provide them with a loving environment. She did apologize, but that doesn't change the sad fact I did talk to her about relationships. I would say today was a success as in, I did what I set out to do, and I also learned not to underestimate how smart my W is in getting what she wants. The moment I show emotion, it may be her cue that she has more time to sit on the fence. When I can totally disconnect my feelings for her maybe she'll completely wake up.

Nothing I said changed anything. She still left, she still hasn't committed to no contact, but if I didn't say something she might not have left. It's as if I had to persuade her to leave when actually she's in a state right now that would only damage the environment for her children and her H. I reitierated the Plan B letter and how once she can say she will try with all her soul to move beyond this EA with OM the door is open. I also told her it will not be forever, but for as long as I can. Everytime we have one of these intense discussions and she rejects me it only chips away at my love for her. I was highly disappointed that Plan B recieved yet another jilt, and for what?

"You already know all of these things, why do I need to say them again. You know I love you, You know we miss you, just read the letter again. You think our M isn't right for you and why? When did you start to feel this way? Right after you bumped into your ex-boyfriend, ever since that day your ideas of our marriage have been rolling down a steep mountain. You already know what the problem is, and each time I say it, I lose a piece of my love. I don't want to keep saying it that's why I wrote it. You are my wife and when you can agree to "TRY", then you can come home to us"

She did say one thing that stuck me in the heart like a dull blade.

"why does it all have to be connected?"

Meaning she could careless if the children had their father who loves them so in their lives, she'd rather be a single mom and no dad to contend with that way she could chase her twisted fantasy life while her children sat by neglected and 2nd string to ther own destruction. I was thinking all these things, but I did not LB. I responded:

"Because this is a FAMILY. We are a FAMILY and we aren't splitting up. We will always be connected as a family and when you're ready you can comeback and be apart of YOUR FAMILY"

She left with a duffle bag over her shoulder. I think she's staying at some sort of a women's shelter. I can't tell you all enough how much it hurts to see her putting herself through this agony, not to mention the conditions! I asked her...

"You'd rather sleep on a cot in a shelter than come home and be with your family, all because of your feelings for OM that's not even in a R with you?

Well, I hope my W's actions won't result in a techinical disqualification from Plan B. In my mind I did the right thing and next time if I have to pay someone, I will not be here when she comes to visit the children. BTW, she took the extra set of house keys with her that I left on the breakfast bar. Hmmm, My W shows signs of clearing but the fog remains intermittently heavy with patches of insanity and self-loathing, I'll back with my extended fog outlook in just a few minutes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ August 28, 2004, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"why does it all have to be connected?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bwaaaah ... she's in Fogland and wants to be a cake eater.

good for you FM -- next time hire a WW sitter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
oh and define the from what time until what time very clearly.

way2

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by way2:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"why does it all have to be connected?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bwaaaah ... she's in Fogland and wants to be a cake eater.

good for you FM -- next time hire a WW sitter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
oh and define the from what time until what time very clearly.

way2 </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for your word WAY2...SHE DEFINETLY IS FOGGED AND HAS CAKE ON HER MIND!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yes, I feel much stronger with each positive step in Plan B. I'm learning, yesssss I AM. I miss my W, she looked so vulnerable and sad, but I had to keep remembering she ISN'T so vulnerable and sad when she's cheating on me by contacting, being with or whatever with OM! As a BS we must keep ourselves grounded, there's a BS fog which can paint the WS in a child's light, but daggonit she's grown if she wants to hit rock bottom all I can do is be her when she sinks. If I can stay in Plan B I can keep LB's probably non-existent and allow her to "Feel" the gravity of her decisions. I can't help but hurt for her, eventhough she is the driver of this Pain-Mobile she's really a sweet lady, very kind and she loves her children and me...at least I hope she does
The ALIENS have my W...I will defeat these ALIENS and reclaim my wife. Lets DEFEAT THE ALIENS! Grab your PlanAs, YOur PlanB's, we've got a WAR TO WIN! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> or not <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ August 29, 2004, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: FamilyMatters ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FamilyMatters:
I will win my family back or my sanity!! Or both if I'm lucky


Nothing I said changed anything.


She did say one thing that stuck me in the heart like a dull blade.

"why does it all have to be connected?"


"You'd rather sleep on a cot in a shelter than come home and be with your family, all because of your feelings for OM that's not even in a R with you?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was going to write: "Good to hear that your not stuck with some drug-dealing, pimp-toting, low-life losers!" The irony. I'm truly sorry.

Anyway, gald to hear your OK. If I may respond?

You already have a family--just lost a player due to injury. It's up to that player to see if she wants to rehabilitate the injury, or just call it a career. But, you, FM, *have* a family!

Nothing you said changed anything--now. Nothing you said changed anything visibly. Patience. (Just don't pray for it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Maybe I'm wrong, but I have a different take on her comment, "Why does it all have to be connected?" It wasn't directed at you. GUILT. You would know best what it meant--inflection, body language, etc., but it could be more of a theoretical question she was asking herself--and only one she can answer. If she asks it again, maybe a response like that would be appropriate: "It's all connected. It's your choice on what connection you make." (Could add more, but I guess it would be considered LB'ing, huh?) Let's hope and pray so.

And, did she respond to your last questions? Hopefully she didn't. It's just another hypothetical question only she can answer.

Completely my on theory (what the he11 do I know?), but it seems her "fog" is turning into thought. Could be a good thing.

Keep going at it FM!

familymatters -

Well you need to go a little bit darker in your Plan B. When you discuss relationship, you are meeting some of her needs. You need to completely avoid those discussions.

When you Plan B them, the WS gets very tricky in keeping you wrapped up in the drama. Expect her to continue trying to engage you.

So back on the Plan B wagon for you. Once you get good at it, you will be much more at peace.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong>

Nothing you said changed anything--now. Nothing you said changed anything visibly. Patience. (Just don't pray for it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey LINY thanks for checking on me. The check is in the mailbox <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Your right! I said: See nothing I said makes a difference. And she said YES IT DOES.

That did feel good to hear. Lets see if it will actually make a difference in her choices. I got a feeling she will be coming around sooner than later, but I'm not going to focus on that. My first focus are my children and getting a life detaching from her drama.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> it seems her "fog" is turning into thought. Could be a good thing.

Keep going at it FM! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I think she is thinking instead of just feeling. Lets see if it will transform into positive action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Believer:
<strong>
Well you need to go a little bit darker in your Plan B. When you discuss relationship, you are meeting some of her needs. You need to completely avoid those discussions.

When you Plan B them, the WS gets very tricky in keeping you wrapped up in the drama. Expect her to continue trying to engage you.

So back on the Plan B wagon for you. Once you get good at it, you will be much more at peace.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Darker is the key I think. Just the fact I'm here with the kids as they go thru their routine, I know it replays in her head constantly. I also think when I engage her she is doing a thermometer check to see if I still love her and if she can come back. This is counterproductive to my Family Goals, because I can't hide that I love her so that gives her more incentive to FENCE SIT regardless to the pain it causes everyone else.

She has talked to me about thoughts of suicide, so I'm somewhat concerned for her safety. I don't know if you recall the ALEVE situation, she took like 19 of them one night and confessed it to me a day later. She contends she just wanted to sleep, BUT 19!?!?!? Who the heck counts pills if they're really trying to hurt themselves. I don't know what to think anymore, but I must let her do as she does and hope she comes to her senses.

I'm getting right back on the wagon. I feel good eventhough this was a tiny setback, because the 1st time I didn't fall off the wagon, I JUMPED! This time she grabbed me off the wagon. Now I realize I must seek out a mediator for her visits with the children. I MUST. Usually my D would have been here and she could have opened doors and watched S for an hour to give W a chance to leave the home while I returned, but D spent the weekends at a schoolmates home. My D needed a break and she didn't want to spend time with her mother. I didn't force her to, my D is highly disappointed in her mom right now. Mom needs to wake up soon there's so much repairing to do.

Next week will be different. I do feel I've said all that can be said and I can let go. It's up to her from here on out. NO MORE CONTACT. My last words will ring within her mind for a while and there were no LB's or crazy desperate attempts to talk her down from the Foggy Bridge she's so intent of plunging to her marital death from. Who knows what tomorrow brings, I won't get my hopes up though the downs are too painful. See I'm learning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

FM

I work with men & women staying at shelters etc for many reasons every day.
Your wifes talk of OD'ing and having taken 19 pills is something to take seriously.
BUT you must understand that there is NOTHING thats NOTHING you can do besides suggest she seeks assitance. Shelters usually have various groups who help in these areas.
Encourage her when you talk of non R issues to seek this help.
Her talk is a way of seeking help AND of manipulation so you cannot allow yourself to be drawn into the emotion. Of course expect to be blamed for it, very common response.
Otherwise listen to all the experts here about the MB stuff, they know far more than me on it.

Hey FM!

Glad to hear things went OK. Everybody else has said the stuff that I would (and they're so much better at it--lol), but I just wanted to let you know I was checking on you and rooting for you!

Biggest 2 points I want to reiterate:

This is plan B--go DARK! Go to a motel for the day if you have to.

Have set times for pick-up/drop-off. If you don't, it's going to be nearly impossible to avoid conversations with her. Have you thought about maybe having a friend or family member act as sort of a go-between? Like have someone come over for 15-30 minutes before she comes to visit/leaves kids so you don't have to be there while she is?

I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like plan B just might get through to her, and I think the better you implement it, the better the chances are!

Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aussie2:
<strong>
Her talk is a way of seeking help AND of manipulation so you cannot allow yourself to be drawn into the emotion. Of course expect to be blamed for it, very common response.
Otherwise listen to all the experts here about the MB stuff, they know far more than me on it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So true. She is trying to manipulate me, she knew that she could have left, but insisted on talking with me, making me face her. I have made the conditions of our M clear in the Plan B letter. I will not waiver from those conditions, RECOMMIT, and NO CONTACT WITH OM FOREVER. I will also not waiver from MY own promises of rebuilding a life with her and reaffirming our bonds. Until she can say I will try and take those necessary steps, I will remain Dark and ignore as best I can any words. It's actions I'm looking for, positive action.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by luvbird:
<strong>
I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like plan B just might get through to her, and I think the better you implement it, the better the chances are!

Keep it up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with your LuvBird, Plan B shows promise if I can execute it properly. She is obviously coming to grips with the consequences of her choices and she will if out of nothing but self-preservation, be forced to make a choice and stick with it. If she chooses to chase OM and a fantasy of OM then so be it. It's time to start Sunday's dinner, I regret that she isn't here to share in it with HER family, but there's nothing more I can do to influence her decisions. She realizes I will not fold on this issue or negoitiate the conditions of my Plan B letter. It seems that she is inflicting so much needless pain on herself, I wish she'd just stop destroying herself. Thanks to Plan B, she will no longer destroy me.

familymatters -

Well you are doing just fine. Zizzy and I are the queens of falling off the Plan B wagon. We both even had SF with our WH's during Plan B! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

However just pick yourself up, dust off, and get right back on the wagon. It is difficult at first because WS's don't like Plan B, and will go to extremes to break it.

Until you see actions, not words, stay dark.

Arrange child visitation outside your home, even if it costs you $$.

Meet your W at a family style restaurant (the kid-friendly ones with rides and such) and drop the child off there with your W... and pick the child up in the same place after # of hours. You could even pay for their meals and ride tickets.

You could arrange this in such a way that it seems like a favor to your W

"Billy wants to go to Chucky Cheese .... I bought $$ coupons so you can have a good time there with him. I'll drop Billy off at 1PM and be back to take him home at 6PM...."

What do you think? Maybe not do this every time.... but I think it is another view of her future she needs to look at.

Make her miss the ~home~ too....

Just an idea.

Pep