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Betrayedinjersey,

I understand what you’re saying and you’re probably right… <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It’s just, the incident with Broken Vessel was SOOO disappointing and unfair and I struggle to get it out of my head. Maybe if I can get in contact with her it will help.

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bij,

You're right that dc stuck around after some harsh replies in the beginning. At that time, she probably felt pretty deserving of those because she hadn't managed to be honest with her spouse about the A. After the other day....when she recieved those kind of replies...AFTER confession....I think she has now left. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

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oops - double post

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H says if he had a clue of the pain it would cause all of us he never would have had an A, no one would.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately people who have experienced the pain of being a BS often go on to become OP's/WS's - I have seen it over and over on these boards and in real life.

I have not seen any evidence that WS's are treated particularly harshly on this board compared to BS's. I think the reverse is often the case. BS's have been told over and over that they shouldn't even be angry, much less criticize the OW. I have seen a BS who was physically assaulted by her WS's and permanently injured told to just get over it. One poster even told me that my H's affair was my fault because I should have been able to diagnose my H with clinical depression and then learn how to cure it at home. Obviously I should have checked out a copy of "Psychiatry self-taught," but I think hiding Prozac in his breakfast cereal might have been frowned upon by law enforcement authorities.

I do not think this is an appropriate place for non-repentant WS's to come - and truly repentant WS's would be more than willing to "grovel."

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I've thought about this one for a long time...

Most of the excuses for not wanting to grant WS's their own forum revolve around the fear that they they might "romanticize" their affair to each other.

I can see how the BS might fear this...it would be hurtful to read it. That's why it would be a WS forum.

Has anyone considered that perhaps examining the "romantic" feelings could be a natural step to healing?

The only other possibility for denying the WS a safe place to discuss their feelings is that some BS DO NOT WANT to see an adulterer heal...they WANT to see them HURT like they have been hurt. By forcing them into the closet, they have to contain their pain and carry it around. GOOD - We deserve that at the very least for what we've done, don't we? Well, at least it's not dragging us into the town square and stringing us up.

I can't imagine that any compassionate adult would want this.

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Low, as I said to Cerri, it's very painful for a BS to read the withdrawal feelings of a WS. Especially when his/her S is going through the same thing. I told her Steve Harley told me to stay away from those posts, and I did.

I hope you maybe know me well enough to realize I believe the WS has to work through these feelings, as much as that sucks for the BS. That is why I am so glad my H went into IC immediately. This is just a thought. If there was a forum for WSs in withdrawal to work through their feelings, with FWSs who have been through it helping them, and BSs who can handle it. Just an idea. I have so appreciated people like you, Comfortably Numb, Hiker, and others giving me and others your perspective. I'd hate to have recovered WSs leave here. CV

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Hey star,
DC is still here...she's posting. It's just not so easy to find her..she doesn't have her own thread...but I posted to her last night.

Low...I'm glad you chimed in...you are one of my favorite FWS...because your fair, what you say makes a lot of sense, and I respect your opinions. Thanks for dropping in !

In taking into consideration, that whole...romanticizing the A... I can see how that may be an issue. I see the GOOD in it, but I also see many a BS, recent to DDAY...fearing of what the WS is discussing in there. Isn't this the case when a couple begins IC and MC, and the IC happens to be the same person ? The anxiety, the BS experiences...about...I don't know what they talked about with the IC.... is on heightened alert.

None of this applies to me directly... so I don't want to speak out of turn, or speak for everyone...just a general sense I get from the boards. I could be wrong...I have been, and will continue to be. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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OOPS...Suzet..didn't want to NOT respond to you.

Perhaps you related to BV on a very personal level, and something triggered you, and it has no closure for you. We BS go through that all the time... imagine one of our recovery buddies having to deal with renewed contact...or a new A...after being in recovery for a year or two...boy do we panic !!! WE immediately go into overtime...our little wheels are spinning just as fast as they can go.

I think the biggest misconception about the BS is we are out for some type of revenge... VENGENCE IS MINE... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

In MOST cases...and I CAN speak for myself personally here... it is really just the fact that a BS is REALLY REALLY scared. On DDAY... a train came around the corner and flattened us. We didn't see or hear the train coming. Now we're super super cautious...waiting for the train ?

Just an analogy....giving some suggestions of where people are at different points.

edited to add... Suzet...I think it would be a great idea for you to get into contact with BV. It would only serve you both well

<small>[ November 04, 2004, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]</small>

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LowOrbit.
That is certainly a point to give some pondering to!

From all the emails I came across between this young unmarried OM and my H; there were very very many romantic feelings between them! UGH!
(I actually threw up after reading them; I was so shocked and heartsick!)

I know after their affair was over, I chose to pretend the 'feelings were also over'; but now I wonder.
WERE THEY?

If they cared so much for one another, how could these FEELINGS just go away because the affair was no longer a secret?

Perhaps us BS could be more understanding to our WS by giving a little more relevance to their 'romantic feelings residue' and not just how WE ourselves our feeling. (But I guess that is what Plan A is all about.)

Everyone of us is selfish in our own way; we each tend to feel our own pain more than we feel other's pain. That is probably just human nature though.

Thanks so much, LowOrbit, for this thought provoking post. Us BS can learn so much from WS that please don't ever leave this MB.
Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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bij...Thanks for lettting me know...that makes me very happy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

As far as WS romanticizing the affair on a private forum....I think that's definitely going on at TOW....but in terms of a forum for WS trying to find their way back home, WITHIN a marriage building site, I can only relay what goes on at penny's site. There is NONE of that.

The posts that WS recieve there have very much in common with the posts here....EXCEPT the words used are not "loaded" or trigger words. Those are considered disrespectful and often condemning. But make no mistake....WSs are very much discouraged from wallowing, romanticizing, justifing, etc. It just doesn't happen.

The point of making it private is to help them get past their withdrawal without their words hurting or triggering the BSs on the board. It protects both groups. The BS get no triggers, and the WS don't get "loaded" words filled with judgement or condemnation from folks still raw and angry. It makes it safer for everyone in whatever place they happen to be.

WS are "called to action" to live a way that's authentic, honest and recognizes that while the A might have met needs, been pleasurable, or is difficult to separate from, that it is harmful, hurtful, devastating not just to their spouse, but to their families and their own sense of self. They are given good solid reasons for resisting contact, and when they fail...are given clear, honest, difficult and hard truths about what that means and how it undermines their lives. They are not babied or coddled, but they ARE given worth and encouragement to become better wives/husbands/citizens/parents. A's compromise their whole lives....and while the act of adultery is dispicable....I have yet to meet one of these people who are dispicable.

I think the "image" of a WS forum is one where there are no real hard truths...and that couldn't be farther from the truth. Those who answer are committed to helping WS wake up, defog, face reality...but in a way that offers hope that if they do...they will be happier, they will be right with their God, and they can rebuild their marriage. Tactless 2X4s often just run them off, destroy what little self esteem they feel, and make it harder for them to recognize that they can do/be better and happier. Afterall, if they are going to be condemned anyway....why not live selfishly?

You have to love yourself to be the best you can. Folks who are trying to end As...are actually disrespecting their selves...and while their acts may be selfish..they actually have very little self love. Pleasure orientation is not self love....non-contradictory joy (joy without harming others) is the path to self love. When you live authentically, you care deeply about who you are, as well as others. When you are involved in an A....you can never achieve that because your pleasure means pain for others.

To break free...you must think enough of yourself, you must have enough hope, you must care enough about others to realize that you can never find happiness while harming another person[s]or living a life of duplicity. So a big part of helping a WS to break the addiction of an affair....comes from making them care about who they are....EVEN if no one else is privy to their actions....because often, the BS doesn't even know. When "humanity" and dignity are undermined...it actually undermines the strength to change and to believe in their ability to make this right.

hugs to all

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Thanks Starfish for putting into words exactly what I was trying to say with my suggestion.

The fact is I chose to stay in this marriage. To do that I have also chosen to forgive my husband. This was not easy and took a lot of work and soul searching. In other wayward spouses I see here I see my husband. I see them struggling with similar issues that my H did. I witnessed his pain. I know it was real. In my case most of his pain was for the knowledge that he had hurt myself and his family. I am sure some of it sprung from withdrawal from the OW. I can understand this. She had been my best friend and I too was feeling pain at her loss from my life. Despite recognising that her friendship was no longer healthy for me I couldn't just kill my feelings. They were real. And believe me she engendered a whole lot of new feelings, but the old friendly feelings were there.

I wish with all my might that my H would have come to this site. The vast majority of posts to WS that I have seen have in my opinion would have assisted him. He was a very broken man for a while there. I was too caught up at that time with my own grief to be his best support. I also think that encouraging a WS to end affair and turn to his wife is one of the great plusses of MB site. If one comes and is unfortunate enough to trigger someone into an attacking post, they might then leave and miss the input of those who may have guided them. if they had been here a while, then they would probably weather that OK but if it weas early it might scare them off.

That is why I thought a separate forum might have helped.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> OOPS...Suzet..didn't want to NOT respond to you.

Perhaps you related to BV on a very personal level, and something triggered you, and it has no closure for you. We BS go through that all the time... imagine one of our recovery buddies having to deal with renewed contact...or a new A...after being in recovery for a year or two...boy do we panic !!! WE immediately go into overtime...our little wheels are spinning just as fast as they can go.

I think the biggest misconception about the BS is we are out for some type of revenge... VENGENCE IS MINE... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

In MOST cases...and I CAN speak for myself personally here... it is really just the fact that a BS is REALLY REALLY scared. On DDAY... a train came around the corner and flattened us. We didn't see or hear the train coming. Now we're super super cautious...waiting for the train ?

Just an analogy....giving some suggestions of where people are at different points.

edited to add... Suzet...I think it would be a great idea for you to get into contact with BV. It would only serve you both well </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bij, thank for the note. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Yes, your are right – I indeed related with BV on a very personal level... Not because I was in the same stage of recovery than her (when she started posting here I was already recovered), but because I could personally identify and empathize with her specific struggles and feelings of early withdrawal and severe depression.

Bij, I think most FWS’s on this board certainly don’t have the conception that BS’s is out for some type of revenge…but I can understand why BS’s might sometimes feel or think that way… There is SO many emotions, triggers etc. on this board for both BS’s and WS’s and I think sometimes this is the main reason for misconceptions and misunderstandings between posters. Everyone experienced different feelings, emotions, struggels etc. and don't always understand each other's viewpoints and feelings.

As I’ve said before, my personal impression is that most of the BS’s posting here is understanding and tolerant of the feelings and inner struggles of a WS, but sometimes it is the harsh, insensitive and unnecessary remarks throwing into the face of a repentant and remorseful FWS which is very disturbing and upsetting. Sometimes no patience is shown for FWS's struggles to cope with withdrawal and residual feelings for the OP... But I understand sometimes the same happen to BS’s and the struggels with their own specific feelings, so it goes both ways. But...because I’m FWS, I can more easily sympathize and empathize with other FWS's (especially FWW's) who are repentant and remorseful, but still struggling with those feelings... And I think the same is true for BS’s – they can more easily identify and empathize with other BS’s.

I agree it’s necessary to have both BS’s and FW’s on one board to give each other insight, input etc., but for various reasons (which will benefit both BS’s and WS’s) I think a separate board for FWS’s in withdrawal and early recovery will be useful.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 02:16 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

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Hello all,

I'm wondering why there is a need for a separate forum for WS (and then perhaps one just for BS too?) on MB. As I read here there obviously IS a forum for WS on another site. So if one really feels the need to go there, they are free to do so. This isn't my first forum, I looked around until I found a good place for myself.

I have been amazed at the wisdom and the compassion I have encountered here at MB. And yes, of course, most of us slip up here and there. I must confess I also made a remark to BV that I felt uncomfortable about the way she kept calling out to JL exclusively. Because I would also feel uncomfortable if some male BS would always ask for me. Maybe I was wrong to project my feelings there. I'll be more careful next time. I still think I was correct, but maybe I shouldn't have spoken up, however gently.

There are many emotions here. We would need a lot of forums if we were to compartmentalise them all, so no-one would get "whacked" by some other poster who has a different viewpoint. In fact, I post most of my own questions here to GET a different viewpoint.

Would we then need a forum for:
- angry BS's who need to vent
- new BS's who don't want to listen to anyone, but just want to complain and wallow
- BS's in recovery
- unrepentive WS in the middle of an A
- repentive WS's in withdrawl
- WS's in recovery
etc. etc. ?

In my opinion, that's what we would need to make sure no-one EVER gets hurt or feels they need to leave. I have seen BS who are very upset because they're (gently) told they need to calm down a little. Some new BS/WS don't listen to anyone. People take a lot of time to carefully phrase excellent advice for them, and those BS/WS just keep on repeating the same stuff as if they're "alone in the room". Or they are terribly offended if anyone doesn't agree with their point of view. They feel "attacked" even by the wisest and unjudgemental of people here.
Luckily, most of them come to their senses after a while - so did I <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

I agree with what another poster said, recovery is rough, and I for one needed to get more understanding of my H's and OW's (ex-BF) mindset. Like a WS needs to get more understanding of their BS's mindset. I learned a lot from what others post here, in all mindsets, and I thank them all for being here.

Please - let's no make ghetto's here. Let's all learn how to be more respectful. In real life there are no separate places to go either, unless we want to make ghetto's. A M in recovery is a very mixed place to be.

I'm sorry if I ever offended anyone.
((((((MB'ers))))))

<small>[ November 05, 2004, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

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* applauds brownhair *

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please - let's no make ghetto's here. Let's all learn how to be more respectful. In real life there are no separate places to go either, unless we want to make ghetto's. A M in recovery is a very mixed place to be.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for saying this brownhair... I guess this is the solution to the problems on this board. Respectfulness between ALL posters won’t make a separate board for anyone necessary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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I've been trying to think of an analogy that might illustrate why a separate forum would be beneficial...

In the context of marriage building, waywards and former waywards are sort of like the "learning disabled" children in a school. We are dealing with "drug" issues, possible emotional handicaps. We act out. We behave like children. Regardless of how we became damaged (e.g. self inflicted), we are still damaged nonetheless.

So, if we attempt to address the special needs of those who are "differently abled"" in a respectful manner, do you think it is more effective just to subject the child (wayward) to the rough wild world, or would you rather address the special needs of that child (wayward) in an environment that preserves their dignity. Eventually, the child (wayward) grow up and takes their place in the larger community...but in both cases they may not be able to do that without some special assistance.

But, just as in school special needs programs, bad behavior is not tolerated. It is just dealt with differently.

There have been many discussion about how people are jsut telling the "truth" here. There is no denying that truth can be quite absolute. It is our perception of that truth that is VERY relative.

For example, I might argue with you the the Rocky Moutains don't exist becasue I can't see them from where I am, yet you may live in Aspen and you firmly perceive that they do. Communicating their existence to me in ways that are I perceive as disrespectful will not convince me that they do. You'll only convince me that you don't care about me.

So, if you intend to communicate truth to an individual, it is your responsibility to structure that communication in a way that will be most effective. Otherwise, at worst, you are just being mean. At best, you're ineffective.

I'm glad SYMC has setup such a forum. I've recently joined myself. When I share there, my objective is to try to meet newbies WHERE THEY ARE, and not to try and drag them to where I am.

At various stages of my recovery I've demonstrated a lot of different attitudes and behaviors in this forum. Some have accused me of being inconsistent. I would like to think that I've been learning and growing and the statements I made a year ago were made by a different, most likely less mature, person.

I think if someone has made the effort to come to this forum and asked for help, they are most liekly quite conflicted and broken. A 2x4 is probably the last thing they need to start with. In an ideal WS help forum, 2x4s and egos get checked at the door (right, Star?)

Low

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LowOrbit:
<strong>
But, just as in school special needs programs, bad behavior is not tolerated. It is just dealt with differently.

There have been many discussion about how people are jsut telling the "truth" here. There is no denying that truth can be quite absolute. It is our perception of that truth that is VERY relative.

For example, I might argue with you the the Rocky Moutains don't exist becasue I can't see them from where I am, yet you may live in Aspen and you firmly perceive that they do. Communicating their existence to me in ways that are I perceive as disrespectful will not convince me that they do. You'll only convince me that you don't care about me.

So, if you intend to communicate truth to an individual, it is your responsibility to structure that communication in a way that will be most effective. Otherwise, at worst, you are just being mean. At best, you're ineffective.
Low </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Applause! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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I hope you don't mind me quoting you Low. This is something you said at the end of a long post on one of my threads last winter. You were speaking of MB in general, not P/C. At the time, I remember thinking, "Wow, he really nailed it--that's exactly how I see it"! There have been times since you've said it, where my feelings have been hurt, but then I remind myself of what you said, and then I'm able to put things into perspective, and I get over it quickly. Here's what you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... I have received a lot of helpful advice from this board. I'm grateful for that. But I never believed for a second that I really "belonged" here.

So, I don't offer this as a plea for any kind of change, but only as an honest observation of how this board really operates when it comes to WS and FWS. We can quote the rules all day long, but at the end of the day WS and FWS are still riding in the back of the bus.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been treated pretty darn well over at P/C, but I've also always been respectful in what I say, and how I say it. Still I've always felt like I don't really fit in, never completely trusted, nor taken seriously, even when I give good, solid MB advice.

Because of the added stress and emotion on P/C with the issues of an OC, there is even less latitude to speak freely than there is here. I've constrained myself many a time from posting some of the struggles I've gone through in my M recovery as the FWS.

Then there is the inflammatory speech. I'm sorry, but I've witnessed a double standard. I've seen many a time where a BS says "off-color" things, and gets away with it. Yet, I know if I dared to say something similar, I'd be flamed. It's just the way it is.

Do I want a separate board for WS, though? NO. I've learned far too much from all types of people, wearing all types of "labels". I think each of us have a lot to offer, and as long as we are respectful in HOW we post, it should not matter which label we wear.

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Low and Autumn - (and anyone else who is still reading --)

Two things I want to comment on -

First how WP's and FWP's are perceived and treated.

I think from the start of my time at MB I've been quite open about the fact that I am a FWW. Not only did I have an affair with my ex's bf and then kick my H out of our home, but my current H and I are technically an affair couple. I wouldn't have seen it that way at the time, which does not make it ok, but it was an entirely different dynamic than the first A.

However, not once, even for a moment have I felt somehow different or looked down on here at MB because of that fact. I'm trying to figure out why my experience is so different from what you describe. And, I know you know I'm not in any way invalidating your experience, just wondering why mine has been different.

A couple of thoughts come to mind. By the time I came to participate actively in the forum (I have a much older registration that I can't even remember now I read but didn't post much or at all) I was well into the relationship with my husband. In fact -- I think --- yes, we were already married by the time I began actively posting. And I was dealing with issues in my current marriage so those perhaps overshadowed the 'how' of where we were. I didn't come here at the end of or while ending my first affair - this place didn't exist then and SAA had not yet been written. There was no help for either me or my ex h.

(Mmmmmm...... and that brings a sidebar thought to mind ...... IF this place had been available in 1996 and I had come here then would it have served to help me end my affair and heal my marriage (and keep my family together!) or would it have traumatized me more and left me both hating and dreading the marriage advocacy community. And if we extrapolate that out - what amazing advocates of the future are we destroying if we treat them badly?)

Another thing that is perhaps different about my experience and that of some others is my extensive knowledge and understanding of the MB concepts. Even before I trained as a coach with Bill Harley and mentored for weekend couples there is nothing you could ask me about MB that I wouldn't know. Being in a really bad marriages does have some benefits <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> - I've counseled with Jenn (when she still did in person counseling) coached with Steve, gone to the weekend as a couple, worked with Dr. Bill via email for close to 6 months, read almost every MB book more than once (and can find documentation about anything you want to know in less than 5 minutes), listened daily to Bill's radio show and later weekly when he moved to that format, (I still do when I get a chance) and read every piece of information on the main site -- all before I came here as a poster. That made a big difference in how I was perceived and how I was treated. Still does.

I have never once felt like an outsider. Been beat up twice - once for knowing too much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and once for insisting that MB concepts can and should apply regardless of the religion of the individuals - but not for much else. Had some great discussions where there was an agreement to disagree - but never been treated with disrespect.

Also - I've found that having been the WP gives me a whole lot of insight into the affair process and that people on both sides really appreciate that. I have tons of email from people thanking me for being able to share with them what their WP might be going through. All FWW have the potential to offer that insight to others in need of help.

Another thing that perhaps is different is that I rarely if ever posted at GQII. I spend the first 9 months at EN and then moved to JFO when a friend found out about his wife's affair. And, after my first months here rarely posted anywhere other than that thread. You probably don't remember it but it set a record (I see the Jelly! thread has only just surpassed the number of posts but not pages..) It was few and far between that I sought wide ranging advice on my stuff and rarely dropped in on other's threads. In fact - the few of us on our "little" thread thought we were the only ones who read there - we had no idea there were lurkers coming every day to check out the local soap opera. It wasn't until well after a year into that thread that people started posting to me asking direct questions.

I wonder if the experience posters have here doesn't have a whole lot to do with how they interact and what they know?

Ok - the other thing I was struck by in your post was the reference to absolute truth. I believe there are absolute facts but not really absolute truth. I also think that the only thing any of us can be honest about is what we experience personally. We can be honest about our feelings, what we see around us, what we do, and about facts that present themselves to us. But other than that? I dunno.

People like to say they are "just being honest" when they state what they are thinking - but when it comes down to it they are giving a biased opinion. Certainly one can say I am honestly stating what I believe - but what one believes is still only opinion -- or judgment. "Honey, I think that dress makes you look like a whale," is certainly an honest expresion of an opinion but it is not truth or fact or even information about the person making the statment. It's a judgment about the dress (and to some degree the person in it).

"Honey, I'm not thrilled with that dress," is an honest statement about one's internal reaction - without judging the dress or the wearer.

I'm taking a series of online classes from the School of Thinking. The first lessons explore in depth the idea of absolute truth and how it has wreaked havoc on society as we know it. Fascinating - and not for the easily offended. The site is http://www.schoolofthinking.org

Alright - I think I rambled all over the place - but it's Friday. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

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Posts: 1,607
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T
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Not outright opposed to this concept...yet also not fully behind it either.

Need more info.

(I do recognize the potential benefits...however just like with anything, also see the potential pitfalls and potential misuses).

What I am curious to find out, is how would this board be handled?

Would it be like the P/C "private" board...(needing permission to join or even view)...or just be like any of the other "open" boards here??

Would anyone be allowed to read (and just not post) or what exactly?

Basically HOW do those who support this idea see it working out??
What would be the proposed rules, criteria & etiqutte??

Thanks

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