A very interesting comment from Pep that I think deserves wider discussion.

I think its true BUT there are lots of mitigating circumstances. Are these reasons for less rigorous criteria for accepting WS home or are they EXCUSES for swallowing too much sh1t just because we're lonely ?

I think the rate of our progress is a vindication of my patient negotiated approach in our sitiuation but others seem to be far more immediately demanding of their WS.

Is it a WH versus WW thing ?

What you all think ?

Bob,

I absolutely agree. BS just glad to have WS back and roll a red carpet for it. Unless WS repents BS should not take 'em back. BS is a second choice in this case.

I think it is not the issues of WH or WW but the personality trait of the BS plays a big role.

-rh-

Bob,

I think what Pep may have meant for some is that they(BS's) let the WS come back home too early not having all the conditions followed,like an NC letter for instance.I have read time and again where a BS let's a WS come back under the guise of recovery only to find out the WS is sitll in contact,never sends a NC letter,refuses to go to counseling,lies about their true desire to recover,wants to cake eat and meanwhile nothing really has changed but the BS gets used again.

In this respect,I don't think there are any mitigating circumsatnces.Either you enforce the rules of MB in a recovery plan or run the risk of failure if you just wing it.I can think of several "high profile" cases here where this was the example(i.e. momto3boys).

I also think pep is unique in that she put her foot down right away(from what she explains) and did not allow her WH to wallow in his behavior and cont.the A.It was pep or the your outta there,take your pick.Most/many of us though have yet to find MB early on and implement any of the principles.

O

My H & I went through 7 separations, separated 14 of 21 months. The first 6 I just wanted him home. The last separation was the longest at 5 months, and he made changes before he came home--ended PA/EA and lived with it, counseling, accountability.

I've come across a book, it's a lot like MB, only with the Christian principles spelled out. WHEN THE ONE YOU LOVE WANTS TO LEAVE by Donald R. Harvey.

There's a chapter near the end about Husbands Who Want to Come Home with lists of appropriate reasons to return, and inappropriate reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Appropriate/right reasons:
-Definite resolution of the motivation that prompted the departure in the first place.

-A genuine desire to work on the problems in the relationship (this includes those problems created by the separation).

-A genuine remorse for the pain caused by the separation and a recognition of the need for forgiveness.

-A genuine acceptance of the personal role played (contribution) in the deterioration of the marital relationship.

-In the case of repetitive irresponsibility, demonstrated behavioral change over time.

Inappropritate/wrong reasons:
-Personal loneliness yet having no real desire to be with the rejected wife.

-Purely logistical considerations such as needing a place to stay, financial strain, or personal convenience and comfort.

-Not attaining whatever it was that motivated him to leave in the first place, yet also failing to resolve it (still has the "pull" to the other woman or the "push" of feeling trapped in the marriage).

-Wanting to come back for any reason, yet being unwilling to deal with the realtionship. "I'll come back if we can pretend it never happened (avoidance). We can just pick up where we left off."

-Any reason that does not include acceptance of at least part of the responsibility for the marital failure and recognitionof the need for forgiveness as oppposed to blaming.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Are these reasons for less rigorous criteria for accepting WS home or are they EXCUSES for swallowing too much sh1t just because we're lonely ?

I belive that there is no excuss for less rigorous criteria for acceping WS home.

When BS gives up the line and lets WS cross over before compliance then BS is asking for the A to continue. In that case BS is asking for for B$hit and chances loosing themselves even further.

Of course BS is expected to draw reasonable boundires the first time they are drawn. BS must draw all the boundires exactly as they should be. Yeah, right. In a perfect world that might be able to happen.

I don't think I have redrawn any important boundries so far, but I have come horribly close a few times after I started feeling a little bit good again.

Now repeat after me:
I will not make the divorce go away until OM is put to rest...I will not make DV go away until OM is put to rest...

That is exactly why we are now dealing with an OC to be. I had not found MB yet, gave my FWH a list he had to agree to before coming home but the A resumed anyway. Why? Because once home I lost my edge and he walked all over my boundaries. If I had insisted on a NC letter and Radical Honesty before he came home, there would not be an OC.

We are in recovery though and starting to do a little better every day. Thank God for this website and you wonderful people.

FF,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If I had insisted on a NC letter and Radical Honesty before he came home, there would not be an OC.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you TRULY willing to stand behind that statement ?

I think a WS, with no true intentions of ending the A, can write a gazillion NC letters, and claim their fame to Radical Honesty all they want.

The main premise being, whether or not their really interested in recovery, or just getting their life back as they once knew it.

Just my ever so humble opinion.

I think these are all individual human decisions. MB isn't guaranteed, neither is Dr. Phil, Shirley Glass, anyone...it's all about the individuals. If a WS doesn't really want the M.... there isn't a plan in the world that will change that.

It's the BS...who has to take the time, to figure out what is really going on. Red Flags go up, it doesn't necessarily mean they are warranted either, everyone has been, and will continue to be wrong from time to time.

Sometimes you're sure someone will make it...and it doesn't happen, while in other cases, you are sure it's destined to fail, and somehow..they pull it out and achieve far more than anyone dreamed of.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]</small>

FF,

I would make a small correction to your assertion that there would not be an OC if you had stood your ground.

I would say..that there might be an OC..but it wouldn't be your problem because having broken NC he would have been out the door if that was your agreement.

Noodle

Ok Bob, I'll take the bait. Haven't had a good discussion since my friend L&F left MB some time ago. The question posed was if the WS left the home to begin with...what if they don't ever leave?

Hi Victoria !

No fishing intended honest ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My FWW didn't leave physically either although she was on planet tharg mentally and emotionally.

What you think if WS don't actually leave home ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by victoria farrar:
<strong>...what if they don't ever leave? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You make 'em leave or you leave if you are done w/ plan A and going to plan B. If WS is de-foged while in plan A and at home, the concept is still the same ... how A should end!. It is about "taking back WS" and giving M a chance.

OT: I am not giving the excuse to WS. Some WS really wants to work on M and come home. However if there are no accountabilities and boundaries ... WS could relapse.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithful follower:
<strong> That is exactly why we are now dealing with an OC to be. I had not found MB yet, gave my FWH a list he had to agree to before coming home but the A resumed anyway. Why? Because once home I lost my edge and he walked all over my boundaries. If I had insisted on a NC letter and Radical Honesty before he came home, there would not be an OC.

We are in recovery though and starting to do a little better every day. Thank God for this website and you wonderful people. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Faithful Follower, you echo my sentiments exactly! I was so pressed to believe WH's heartfelt apologies that I did exactly what you did and am going through the same thing. I now have the added drama of WH being incarcerated for the next 9 months, while finding out that EA and PA have continued despite our recovery (which has proven to be a false one). He went to one MC session after swearing he would do "whatever it takes" to get marriage back on track. I didn't press him to continue, and despite doing a Plan A, didn't insist on NC letter, etc. Now, I'm reaping the "benefits" of my failure to set boundaries and to stick to them.

Like you, I also thank God for this website and the wonderful people here!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would say..that there might be an OC..but it wouldn't be your problem because having broken NC he would have been out the door if that was your agreement.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you guys got me there. What I really meant was I don't THINK there would have been an OC or as quoted above he would have been out the door and having to deal with this on his own. You are right, no guarentees that NC would have been maintained, however, I do believe Radical Honesty including showing me all of his cell phone activity and being accountable for his time would have made it much more difficult for him to continue the A. Of course they did go out and get their "affair" phones after a while... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Arrgh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithful follower:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would say..that there might be an OC..but it wouldn't be your problem because having broken NC he would have been out the door if that was your agreement.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, you guys got me there. What I really meant was I don't THINK there would have been an OC or as quoted above he would have been out the door and having to deal with this on his own. You are right, no guarentees that NC would have been maintained, however, I do believe Radical Honesty including showing me all of his cell phone activity and being accountable for his time would have made it much more difficult for him to continue the A. Of course they did go out and get their "affair" phones after a while... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Arrgh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for clarifying! And, don't EVEN get me started on the "affair" phones! Those things have been the bane of my very existence!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

LOL ! Affair phones !

I have the " ba(s)tphone in my desk drawer !

I wonder how many mobiles are bought as affar phones ! And how much credit is left dangling there when they're busted ? LOL ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

okay I'll tell you what I think...according to most MB at the time I did EVERYTHING wrong. My H had an A that lasted about 8 mths as he would tell it. According to my IC much longer but that is all part of a long story...2 years long. According to the experts I plan a'd too long, I didn't do a plan b, I should have tossed him out on his kiester, I should have left etc etc....none of which I did.

I chose to bide my time. Yes I did plan A. Yes I did discover me and shared that with my H. Yes we talked...even about the A while it was ongoing. Yes I did go on with life, but always made it a point to include H no matter how much I would have rather kicked him.

I am a scientist; I am trained to watch and listen and it served me well. I learned how to hack computers and where to look for hidden love notes. And I knew my H and knew that he would wear himself out as he was doing and being a man that was NOT him. I knew the questions to ask and how to ask them. And due to his insistence that I read the letters that OW wrote to him (plus all the emails I intercepted, I knew that she would eventually push too hard on a man that valued his family above all things and absolutely HATED and I do mean HATED to feel pushed into anything).

Perhaps that is the real key...if you do not know your spouse before an affair occurs, how in the world are you supposed to be able to recover? How do you know when is the right time to push or to step back?

I think that part of the reason that you have had so much success thus far is that you possess that knowledge also and have used it very well to open up to your wife and allow her to do the same. Progress seems slow, but even as such it is occuring.

And after all this I am wondering did I even begin to answer the question? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: victoria farrar ]</small>

BIJ- said it the best for me ...

I woud like to say there is no garentees that any of it works ...

NO one knows what is in the mind of the WS and please don't say action ,,, We have read storys here that would show different ....

HOW many times does a BS think its withdrawals and the WS is acting affectionate , kind ,,, you know NORMAL and BOOM ....contact was taken place .

Lets rember each OP is diffent as well they can get a letter and not give a crap and deside that they will go along with the secret A all over again and even except less time from the WS so they can CON the BS even more ...

BS (JMO) are winging this hole thing , we are taking the WS back because we may have seen then hit bottem they agree to everything ... THEN they change again ... WHATS makes the BS so wrong ...they took a chance .. they believed ...

I don't thiink that means they didn't inplement the "PLANS " wrong ..OR they are a DOORMAT, or desparate ,, or blind and only see what they want to see ...

WE talk about when will we (bs) trust again ,, funny thing is we TRUST the minute we let them back in our life ...

WE are trusting that they have radical honesty , n/c ect...

And like I said above don't say actions cause a WS who wants to have the "thing" on the side may learn from the mistakes the first time around ..all it takes is the right partcepation from a OP who is a looser !!!

The OP does have alot to do with the hole thing and I do not agree with excluding them from the problem ...

3

VICTORIA- where have you been since I got here ..LOL

I loved your post it just helped me ... TU !

okay to answer the actual question...yes I do think that happens and I have seen it time and time again in the eons that I have been here. I don't think that most people are prepared for how hard, REALLY hard that it is to plan A, plan B, deal with all the fallout that you have to weed through, a lot of times all by yourself.

It takes knowing yourself...not thinking that you do...but really knowing. Your strengths, weaknesses, vulnerabilities. Having a support system..not a bunch of people that will badmouth your spouse, but support YOU. Have a plan in place for the what if's...be prepared for what ever the outcome. And be patient...that may be the most important trait of any and the hardest to stick with.

When you have all your ducks in a row, it makes it a whole lot easier to deal with anything that a WS can throw at you and keep you from jumping the gun to have a spouse do anything whether they be at home or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder how many mobiles are bought as affar phones ! And how much credit is left dangling there when they're busted ? LOL !

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, I can tell you that it cost my H several hundred dollars to get out of the cell phone mess he created with FOW. That in itself since my H is a very thrifty man was enough to make him realize what a mess he made. Top that with the knowledge the CS dollars will be going out of the family each month in the near future and I don't think he will likely do this again.

By the way, from my own perspective as a FWS I would never do it again because I was sickened by my own actions and have also had to suffer the pain and consequences of my H's two A's. Enough yucky stuff to last a lifetime. I do know too that I have matured greatly over the past several years and became a believer too.