I'm all over the board here. Sometimes I want to quit, sometimes I want a breakthrough.

To bring folks up to speed, WW has been out of the home since 10/1/2003 and took our YD with her. I found out about her affair on 11/17/2003 and she filed for divorce and I was "served" on 2/13/2004.

We had an agreement in 12/04 and it was supposed to be final by the end of the year, but her lawyer made some mistakes and I sent the agreement back.

Now we are at the end of January and I've still heard nothing from her or her lawyer.

I called three times this week about the pickup of YD. Left a voice mail each time and never got a return call.

I don't know how to reach WW, if I should even try to reach WW.

I just feel like God has not released me from the marriage, but I don't see where he is making a way for me to win her back to our home.

Somebody help me, I don't want to fail my YD or WW by giving up too soon.

I will probably see her tomorrow night when I drop off YD.

Maybe I should just be in plan B and never call her again, but I don't know if that's right.

What do you do if you don't have many/any plan A opportunities.

What are her emotional needs? The only thing she states is that I cannot meet her needs.

Oh, and I've exposed the affair. Was telling OM's alumni association far enough scope for exposure, LOL?

Of course, his wife knows, my WW's parents know, etc.

I just wish there was something I could do, I feel so helpless and hopeless.

I'm going to put YD in bed now and hopefully there will be some great ideas, because my mind is a blank page right now.

Thanks,

TB

I read your post on RH's thread, and have been thinking about you. I have been going through the same thing for 2 years. However my children are grown and so it is much easier for me.

What are you doing to make your life good? I know that you want your marriage and family intact, and anything else is a failure. However it would be great if you could move on and have a happy life with or WITHOUT your wife.

My life has completely changed since D-day. I am happier now than before. I think you can get there too. Is there a reason to rush the divorce?

I didn't see much advice. Is that because you don't believe I will follow it, or that there isn't any MB approved advice for reaching a withdrawn WW?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> I didn't see much advice. Is that because you don't believe I will follow it, or that there isn't any MB approved advice for reaching a withdrawn WW? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it's hard to work with someone you aren't in communication with. Maybe it's not that there isn't any MB approved advice, but maybe not much of ANY advice on the topic.

Asked SH for advice. I only have sugestions. Part of plan A is to convinced WS that BS could change thus better and happier future await SO upon returning to work on M. The key here is to convinced ... you don't need to do directly to WS ... heck most WS "convinced" (fantazied) that OP would be able to fillin the role. PTC. Patient, give it Time & Consistency.

Why do you think she is withdrawn from you ?. Is it b/c you failed to convinced WS that your actions are genuine ? or you do such a great job of plan A that she has to shut you down to make A easier to digest ?.

How did you reach WS in the past when she was withdrawn ?

-rh-

Never could reach her. If there ever was conflict, she would just shut down. I'd want to talk about something, she wouldn't. I'd ask her to pick a time, she would never give me a time to talk.

So she just runs away from conflict. She doesn't feel she can fix the marriage, so she starts another relationship.

I've asked her out on dates, no reply.

She is pretty good about saying no to me having more time with YD as well. That is, if she even answers the phone.

Forget about getting a call returned <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So like I said, MB fails/failed to provide a solution or plan to reaching a withdrawn spouse.

The question about was/is the plan A too strong, too good. Who knows, it's only speculation.

Why not ask her? Maybe you can get her to talk more than I can.

TB

or that there isn't any MB approved advice for reaching a withdrawn WW?
That's pretty much it.
If she is not interested in having contact (good or bad contact), there is not much you can do ("MB approved" or otherwise).
You ain't gonna find gold, if you can't go to the gold mine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was in the same boat. My ex simply took off. Wanted no contact at all from me.
We have spoken a total of ~8 hours in 6 years.

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

You are going to have to give me very specific instructions or be ready for a lot of questions. I work well with instructions, but am not really creative.

Let me give you an example of what I face. This morning, I have YD's glasses. Wait, let me back up a bit, last night at the drop off, I notice that YD took her glasses off and left them at the house, so I tell WW that I have YD's glasses and I'll drop them off at the school today. I get to the school at about 8:05, kids are supposed to be there at 8AM, YD gets on the bus at 7:30, it's a 20 minute ride at the most, YD is not at school.

So I put the glasses in YD's cubby in the classroom and ask the teacher to give them to YD.

I call WW's cell phone to make sure everything is ok, YD's not sick etc. YD answers and says she is on the way to school. So I say I'll hang out and give her a hug when she gets there.

WW pulls up and just dumps out our 6yo YD and YD says mommy says you can take me to class.

So what do you do? She runs from me, even meeting in public at school.

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So like I said, MB fails/failed to provide a solution or plan to reaching a withdrawn spouse. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You just don't like the answer. It is plan A and PTC. Read Hopeful_Person , she was a WW and repented and waited and able to reach her exH after 2 years. I admire her for her strength.

Maybe you should step back and do plan A from far and hope one day she realizes that she is making a mistake. My ExW realizes it now, 3 years from when she put NC on me (I am in plan B by default). However I am done with her 2.5 years ago when my Dv was finalized. Not all M could be save, not all M should be save but definitly not at all cost.

-rh-

<small>[ January 31, 2005, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: redhat ]</small>

javaSansContour,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what do you do? She runs from me, even meeting in public at school.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will lay low. Let her have her way and let her live her way while you try to keep your taker in check. Hope by the time she woke up you are still M and you still want her back. Just take it as plan B by default.

What were her specific complaints that is legit about your contribution in this mess ?. Attack it and show it w/ consisntency ... remember you only need to convince her, she might not be the direct recepient.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong> javaSansContour,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>So what do you do? She runs from me, even meeting in public at school.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will lay low. Let her have her way and let her live her way while you try to keep your taker in check. Hope by the time she woke up you are still M and you still want her back. Just take it as plan B by default.

What were her specific complaints that is legit about your contribution in this mess ?. Attack it and show it w/ consisntency ... remember you only need to convince her, she might not be the direct recepient.

-rh- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She says she felt:

-- Unwanted
-- Controlled
-- Unloved
-- Unaccepted

So while I'm sure she felt these things, I contend it's something she manufactured.

If she is unwanted, why do I not want to divorce?

If she felt controlled, why did I side with her on almost every decision?

If she felt unloved, why do I still love her?

If she felt unaccepted, why am I willing to still work on a marriage with her?

It makes no sense to me. I know she feels this way, I'm not saying her feelings are wrong.

However, her feelings don't match up with the facts.

So again, I ask, how do you address these sorts of complaints when you have little contact, and personally I feel these are projections.

I feel she doesn't accept me, so to justify her affair, she says I don't accept her.

She doesn't love me, so to justify her affair, she says I don't love her.

Etc.

Probably bordering on a DJ, I don't know.

She complained about me not giving her cards, appreciating her etc. I don't contact her much, but I called her on YD's birthday and thanked her for giving me such a wonderful daughter. Her response was, what are you up to? I said, I was just righting a wrong that I had done before. Until 2003, I never thanked her on YD's birthday. I started that last year, after she moved out. She seemed to like it last year. She was just mad about it this year.

You are right, I don't like the answer that I can just wait, that there is little I can do.

I don't even have much hope that the affair will fizzle because it's a long distance relationship, so they only spend occassional weekends together. It's all Disneyworld for them, no reality. No dirty dailys for them.

But you are in good company, I'm not too pleased with God's progress either. I thought He'd give me peace or bring her home.

Neither of those have happened.

I guess I'm just too uptight, huh. Goes with being an ESTJ.

TB

javaSansContour,

You are cracking me up <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I am also ESTJ and I am also very impatient ... that's why probably I gave up on her. However I don't have any regret with my decision ... I would make the same decision if you turn back the clock.

-- Unwanted >>> could you be creative so that she do useful thing for your D ?. Small stuff that it is important to you and she could help you out. e.g. ask her to pick up birthday gift for YD and you will wpay her & wrap them up and give it to YD. Make any excuse that you can't do it alone. e.g. create a drama such as your car won't start and ask her to do something.
-- Controlled >>> sit back and let her have her space.
-- Unloved >>> well you can't do it to her but you could show your love to YD.
-- Unaccepted >>> start practice on active listening whith whatever time you have.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">....Her response was, what are you up to? I said, I was just righting a wrong that I had done before.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good but you have to keep at it and hope it will sink to her one of these day. She is suspicious. You could send cards to your YD, show affections to her, etc.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until 2003, I never thanked her on YD's birthday. I started that last year, after she moved out. She seemed to like it last year. She was just mad about it this year.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Presistence and consitency ... my exW got mad too b/c I started showing consistency that chipping her faulty beleive that I can't change. By the time she realize that I am a great dad ... it is too late, and her words still he wasn't a good father but he is now. I don't care no more about her ... I know what my values was and still is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right, I don't like the answer that I can just wait, that there is little I can do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, waiting is something to do and it is the hardest thing to do. Other than waiting actually you could a lot like I pointed it out to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't even have much hope that the affair will fizzle because it's a long distance relationship, so they only spend occassional weekends together. It's all Disneyworld for them, no reality. No dirty dailys for them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with your prognosis but long distance have its own disadvantages ... when one of them want it more and the other one couldn't do it ... LB'ng starts. Remember time and distance would dried up the fantasy.

Not much you can do but until your Dv is finalized ... it isn't over.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by redhat:
[qb] javaSansContour,
[QUOTE][She says she felt:

-- Unwanted
-- Controlled
-- Unloved
-- Unaccepted

So while I'm sure she felt these things, I contend it's something she manufactured.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there's your problem right there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I understand the need to take with a large grain of salt, the assertions of wayward spouses, but were these things your wife brought up to you throughout your marriage, prior to the affair?

Because I can tell you that nothing will push a spouse away faster than refusing to acknowledge or choosing to totally discount what they are telling you about the relational problems.

The following answers are based on how your wife possibly views your questions, they do not represent accusations or assertions from me toward you.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she is unwanted, why do I not want to divorce?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you want to continue to be in control of the marriage.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt controlled, why did I side with her on almost every decision?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was it whole-hearted agreement or the quiet resignation of "okay, I totally disagree with your decision, it's ill-thought out and totally illogical, but since I know you'll be a major PITA if you don't get your way, then I'll go ahead and let you make the final choice" ?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt unloved, why do I still love her?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you discounted her when she approached you with what she felt were problems in the relationship, if you left her with the knowledge that what troubled her was nothing more than "manufactured" - then she feels that she as a person was of little importance to you. Because if someone is important to you, you let them know by not treating them as if they are illogical know-nothings. If you didn't understand, you could easily have said "I don't understand, but I'm sorry that you're upset and want to work with you to solve this."

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt unaccepted, why am I willing to still work on a marriage with her?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because no one likes to lose something/somebody before they are ready to get rid of it/them themselves?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It makes no sense to me. I know she feels this way, I'm not saying her feelings are wrong.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you're not saying her feelings are wrong.

You're just saying they have no basis in reality and what she hears when you do that is that she is not real bright, otherwise she would see things the way you did.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
However, her feelings don't match up with the facts.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me share a real example from my own life. I'm more of a social person than my husband. I was a SAHM. My suggestions for social events during the weekend were often turned down because he had worked hard all week, he had dealt with dozens of difficult people all week, he needed some downtime to recoup for the upcoming week. These were all true facts. What I heard and what I felt was that *I* was not important. In fact, he felt I was being demanding. And unappreciative. Not understanding.

And I continued to feel unimportant. Certainly less important than his need to R&R from his work schedule. When I told him that I felt ignored & unimportant he was incredulous. Was he not working hard for the family every week? Yes, he was. We both agreed with that "fact".

I can tell you that the sense of being unimportant resulted in a deep well of resentment that eventually almost destroyed our marriage.

Unless your wife has had a large disconnect with reality, her feelings have some basis in fact.

If you spent years overtly or covertly leaving her with the sense that she was being goofy and you were just going along to humor her, then there's a bit of damage done.

Your first step should be to determine whether or not you think your wife was disconnected from reality and if she wasn't, you might want to consider that you have insisted on looking at the "facts" from your own narrow view while discounting the possibility that she had a point that you were studiously ignoring.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Garmus:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by redhat:
[qb] javaSansContour,
[QUOTE][She says she felt:

-- Unwanted
-- Controlled
-- Unloved
-- Unaccepted

So while I'm sure she felt these things, I contend it's something she manufactured.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, there's your problem right there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I understand the need to take with a large grain of salt, the assertions of wayward spouses, but were these things your wife brought up to you throughout your marriage, prior to the affair?

Because I can tell you that nothing will push a spouse away faster than refusing to acknowledge or choosing to totally discount what they are telling you about the relational problems.

The following answers are based on how your wife possibly views your questions, they do not represent accusations or assertions from me toward you.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she is unwanted, why do I not want to divorce?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you want to continue to be in control of the marriage.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt controlled, why did I side with her on almost every decision?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Was it whole-hearted agreement or the quiet resignation of "okay, I totally disagree with your decision, it's ill-thought out and totally illogical, but since I know you'll be a major PITA if you don't get your way, then I'll go ahead and let you make the final choice" ?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt unloved, why do I still love her?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you discounted her when she approached you with what she felt were problems in the relationship, if you left her with the knowledge that what troubled her was nothing more than "manufactured" - then she feels that she as a person was of little importance to you. Because if someone is important to you, you let them know by not treating them as if they are illogical know-nothings. If you didn't understand, you could easily have said "I don't understand, but I'm sorry that you're upset and want to work with you to solve this."

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
If she felt unaccepted, why am I willing to still work on a marriage with her?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because no one likes to lose something/somebody before they are ready to get rid of it/them themselves?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It makes no sense to me. I know she feels this way, I'm not saying her feelings are wrong.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you're not saying her feelings are wrong.

You're just saying they have no basis in reality and what she hears when you do that is that she is not real bright, otherwise she would see things the way you did.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
However, her feelings don't match up with the facts.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me share a real example from my own life. I'm more of a social person than my husband. I was a SAHM. My suggestions for social events during the weekend were often turned down because he had worked hard all week, he had dealt with dozens of difficult people all week, he needed some downtime to recoup for the upcoming week. These were all true facts. What I heard and what I felt was that *I* was not important. In fact, he felt I was being demanding. And unappreciative. Not understanding.

And I continued to feel unimportant. Certainly less important than his need to R&R from his work schedule. When I told him that I felt ignored & unimportant he was incredulous. Was he not working hard for the family every week? Yes, he was. We both agreed with that "fact".

I can tell you that the sense of being unimportant resulted in a deep well of resentment that eventually almost destroyed our marriage.

Unless your wife has had a large disconnect with reality, her feelings have some basis in fact.

If you spent years overtly or covertly leaving her with the sense that she was being goofy and you were just going along to humor her, then there's a bit of damage done.

Your first step should be to determine whether or not you think your wife was disconnected from reality and if she wasn't, you might want to consider that you have insisted on looking at the "facts" from your own narrow view while discounting the possibility that she had a point that you were studiously ignoring. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand what you are saying, and I have no doubt she feels this way.

However, I do take exception to your assertion that I did not value how she felt. In fact, I felt I went to a lot of effort to understand her.

She seemed withdrawn long before she left, so I would ask her what was wrong. Her answer, nothing is wrong.

Before I read any of Dr Harley's materials, I asked WW to spend more time together. I asked her for just 1 hour/day that was just her and me, so we could connect with each other. Nope, she wouldn't commit to it.

I'm not perfect, since she was so private and withdrawn most of the time, when she would bring up an issue, I'd bring up my own issues. Mistakenly, I thought we could resolve all the issues then.

Why did I do it that way? Because when I brought up something, she would dismiss it. So I felt if she was talking about what was bugging her, I could talk about what was bugging me.

Oh, I don't deny that I made a lot of mistakes, and did my part to foster an environment where she looked outside our marriage to meet her needs.

But I also contend that she was as you say, disconnected from reality.

I often asked her how I could better show her that I loved her, she would say things like be more romantic. Well, that could mean anything, so I asked her to give examples.

Her reply was if you felt love for me, you would know how to please me.

Sorry, that's not realistic. If I feel love for you, I want to please you, but I may not always know the best way to do it.

I might believe I'm demonstrating love by paying all the bills, making any money she earns her own mad money. I believe I'm doing something to please her, to show her I love her.

But she doesn't feel loved.

As you say, two different realities. You want me to connect with her reality, yet she apparently with her affair and filing for divorce refuses to connect with my reality.

This is exactly as you say in your tale, you and your H had different realities. He thought he was doing a lot for you. You didn't appreciate it.

I understand where both of you were. He felt his contributions were not important and you felt the same way. You resented his need to unwind instead of saying, he does a lot to support this family, so I'll respect his need to unwind. He didn't understand or perhaps resented your need to be more social.

I get it, you each were not able to connect with the reality of another person.

So tell me, how do you connect with their reality when they move out and start an affair with a married man?

You can tell me about my mistakes, and I'll probably agree with you, I may defend a bit, but I think you are pretty close to being spot on.

So tell me what I really need to know, how do I reach her now?

TB

NE other suggestions?

Garmus, you seemed to have a feel for this, what are your suggestions?

TB

So again, I ask, how do you address these sorts of complaints when you have little contact,
You cannot. If someone is not willing to accept something, you cannot force it on them. This is not your fault & this is not the fault of MB principlers (or whatever).

You learn where you may have messed up. If she is willing at some point (explains time frame for Plan B) to accept something from you, then you can apply this stuff in your relationship.
Until she opens the door, you can't go in.

So tell me what I really need to know, how do I reach her now?
You continue on as you have.

(this is rhetorical. No answer needed.)
I want to be president of my company.
I have the proven experience and skills necessary.
I have talked with everyone about it. I have sent letters to all the board members.
I have shown how I could improve the company by 300%.
Yet they still ignore me.

What can I do?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> So again, I ask, how do you address these sorts of complaints when you have little contact,
You cannot. If someone is not willing to accept something, you cannot force it on them. This is not your fault & this is not the fault of MB principlers (or whatever).

You learn where you may have messed up. If she is willing at some point (explains time frame for Plan B) to accept something from you, then you can apply this stuff in your relationship.
Until she opens the door, you can't go in.

So tell me what I really need to know, how do I reach her now?
You continue on as you have.

(this is rhetorical. No answer needed.)
I want to be president of my company.
I have the proven experience and skills necessary.
I have talked with everyone about it. I have sent letters to all the board members.
I have shown how I could improve the company by 300%.
Yet they still ignore me.

What can I do? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you could pitch your talent to another company <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

TB

Hi Tony,
I read this the other day and thought of you…
From PetVet, in the Divorce Section

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> by petvet:
You know W has made some really bad decisions all the way around. One will always lose when short term decisions are made that result in long term consequences. I must be honest with you. Recently, I sat down with the priest who did our marriage preparation. Granted, I have sought his counsel since D day. But this particular afternoon while sitting in his residence, he said something to me that he had never disclosed to me before. He told me that he knew I was in trouble because he could tell my wife was not a team player.

He felt she wanted things her way and did not want to compromise. The reason we were talking in the first place was someone in my parish died. This person's wife had abandoned this guy and his two kids. The guy did not have any next of kin other than his 17 year old son and 14 year old daughter. Well, he was very upset at the mother because due to the situation the 17 year old had to handle all medical issues and funeral arrangements ( Signing paper, etc.) because he was the closest next of kin to his father. That made him think of me and my son. At one point, he was saying some pretty negative things like this person miss the turn adn does not act educated. I thought he was referring to the dead man's ex-wife but he was actually referring to my W. Needless to say, I felt bad after that meeting.

When I went home, I looked in my files and was able to locate the actual marriage preparation test my W and I took. Well on this test, they like for you to score at least 80% or above. Well, our score came back in the low 70's. Thinking back, I did not think that was too far off to make up through awareness and work. He said that he thought my W said things that she thought he wanted to hear rather than what she actually thought. I do not know what to say RMA. Now, my son and I are here in this house missing an important family member. It does not appear that W's thought process is very good. I may have married someone with alot of baggage. Now, my son and I pay the price.
As this priest has said many times, it is what it is. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Tony, you know I’ve read a lot of your posts.

I know you are Mr. Logical.

She had one child she gave up for adoption, another out of wedlock that she kept, and was in financial trouble living with her parents when you met her, right? (close enough?)

If you looked at this on paper: would YOU think this was the best logical choice for a life mate?

I think you’re beating a dead horse. Sure, you have areas of your personality that could be refined. Who doesn’t? She, however, is basically a flakey person. And she’s NOT trying to improve that.

I’m SURE she was cute and charming. I’m sure you were flattered by her being cute and charming towards her. But you had to know she wasn’t Ms. Responsibility. You took the risk. Heck, I took the same risk with my current H, and got bit, too. Big time!

You are now taking self-flagellation to a new level. This cant be healthy!

I’d get the child visitation nailed down, in stone, as quickly as possible. She is beyond selfish and cruel by not letting you see your DD.

That should clearly tell you all you need to know about her mental state. Totally self-centered. She’s STILL not the type of person that deserves to be married.

Just my $0.02 - Dru

dbl

<small>[ February 02, 2005, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Comfortably Numb ]</small>

JC:

I don't have advice, just an outsider's opinion. This is what I see. (I’m sorry Java . . . )


1) Your wife doesn't feel safe with you.
2) She doesn't want a relationship with you.
3) She doesn't seem to even like you at the moment.
4) When she does have contact with you, you start the questions, start asking her for explanations, for details of her life, etc. Every interaction with you is a huge LB to her right now.

I don't know Java, but maybe it is time to just leave her alone. When you see her, smile, say Hi, pick up your daughter and then leave. She knows how you feel and what you think . . . you don’t have to tell her anymore.

At some point it takes two people to make a marriage. Your wife doesn't want to play right now, stop trying to make her. Every interaction that you have with her she views as negative. I don’t think it matters what you do. . . simply being around you, right now, bothers her.

It isn’t fair, it isn’t rational, and it sucks. Right now she isn’t a wife to you, you two just share a child. Maybe that can be enough for now?

Have you ever ended a relationship with a woman? When you want out you just do. I know that no matter what my x-fiancé said or did I would not have reconciled. I was done. The more she pushed the more adamant I became. Her tears just made me mad. Do you see what I’m saying?

I could tell you to keep Plan Aing . . . but . . . I’m a rational guy too. . . it hasn’t worked yet, why would one expect it to now?

O.K. Ignore what I said above, but at least listen to the following:
Love your daughter. Take care of yourself. Meditate. Get lots of sleep. Watch some Monty Python and the Flying Circus videos and drink some good red wine. Regain your sense of wonder with the world and laugh when you feel like crying. This is the most painful thing that you will probably experience and if you can get through this you do anything.

CN