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Joined: Oct 2003
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I want to tell my story again. Maybe with more details, or just more of the right ones. I am so lost right now. Please, I need support, and maybe I can handle some 2x4s, but only if they are not used too harshly.

I want to Plan B, but not sure if I would "Caren" it. I feel like I do not have enuf proof of A, although I am 99.9% sure of EA, and H will NOT admit to anything. I am so unsure of myself on so many levels and I do not like feeling this way.

But on to my story.. I met my H when my daughter was around 4. He wanted kids more than anything..his 1st M, they were young, 2nd M never was to right person (he claims) and she could not have kids...

We discussed having another kid almost from the beginning. I always joke that he married me because I was fertile and I Md him because he was stable (financially and otherwise). He loved (and still does) my D as much as a person can without being the "actual" biological parent. Her bio dad (as my friends call him, sperm donor) has never been around (~ 2x on his own before she was 13). That is another story but it has MUCH bearing on my decisions for my family.

The following is a past post of mine... edited for clarity...

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In 03, we were having lots of problems. - Before this even though, I have not had many of my needs met for a very long time and had tried begging, yelling, logical arguments, threatening. ... I know now, albeit not by his own admission, that many of my H's needs were not being met either. - He became even more distant and irritable with me that year. And went on a business trip, over my B-day, without me, although I really wanted to go. He was rather insistent that I didn't go and I didn't push it too hard. We went out to celebrate my B-day, the Fri. before he left - to dinner and home before 9:00. Before I went to put young S to bed, I even asked my H if he would stay up and watch a movie with me (one of my problems with him was that he was in bed by 9 or so always, never giving us time together and we rarely went out). By 9:15, when I came downstairs, he was asleep- in bed with the light off. I was very hurt. He woke up at about 1:00 AM and irritably approached me, with "I guess you're mad now, huh?!" I said "No, just really hurt" and an argument ensued....


This business trip caused a lot of arguing before and after. We both did lots of LBing. When he got promotion few yrs ago, H also got “secretary” but don’t call her that , H gets defensive, really she has a title. Only time I have really been jealous, was when this woman called my H at home and asked for H by pet name, not identifying herself - H said I was silly and this led to more discussions/arguments about this woman. I am including this background to say I do not think that I am overall jealous person, but can be at times. I know NOTHING about the people he works with, except what he tells me. He RARELY speaks of work or coworkers, but told many stories about this woman as soon as he started working with her. At first, I was just glad that he was talking, then I realized that it was only about her. H says it's because she was first person to work "for" him.

I really started believing after that trip that H was having EA or PA, EA more likely. Lots of little subtle clues and gut - no real proof. Maybe , just maybe my insecurities and his withdrawal and neglect.

I eventually - 3 months after trip- put a recording device in his car. In the first two days, I overheard one side of conversations in which he was saying how unhappy he was and how awful I was. H denies to this day that he was talking to anyone, states that he was talking to self.

I am not a holder-inner, and what I heard devastated me. Basically, my H was trashing how bad his life is, mostly because of me and the kids and horses - but it was all my fault!! He at one point said that .." I know that cleaning stalls is no fun job but, you you have to see things from my perspective..." - he was talking about the fact that I clean stalls but don't do enough inside at night. In another conversation he said “ Maybe I should talk to her [me], explain that I don’t love her anymore and that we are complete opposites”. He went on that he was trapped and he has to do everything ( so not true ) and he is miserable and again it was all my ( “horse-girl‘s ” ) fault. And much more Not to mention that I can hear a woman's voice in the tape twice, answering him. One specialist that cleaned up the tape said that there was quite possibly two-way radios used.

Anyway, I threw him out for a week, took him back, went to MC, and I tried Plan A eventually after realizing that some of his hurtful "overheard" comments were a plea for better domestic help from me.I didn't find this site for awhile and was "winging' it. I've always worked hard at home (small part-time job outside of home) but more outside work than inside. I thought that I was doing him a favor, since we have horses and small acreage (I wanted that). He had even griped tha he had too much to do outside before. But I was neglecting laundry and cooking and some housecleaning. I have done better since last year, except for cooking and that just depends on circumstances, but I do not like to cook.

I have never found any other "real" evidence of an affair, and tend to think that he was close, but never went any further than what I heard. My problem now is his dishonesty about the whole thing and the fact that although I really think that he wants to be with me, he won't listen to or respond to my needs.

Please don't tell me to forget it and go on. Honesty and Openness has always been one of my biggest needs and my H is not an open person to begin with. But downright lying is a bitter pill and I cannot/will not swallow it. Of course he has lied before: about both big and little things and almost always to stay out of trouble. He is a true conflict avoider! And I am quite the opposite, just let"s get it all out....and deal with the consequences.

I have read enough to know that I can't change him, only myself. I honestly have changed and continue to try to better myself, for my M and life, in general. Now what? I keep hitting a brick wall!! I have strongly encouraged H to lurk here, really pushed, trying not to actually get too pushy. He says that he sees nothing that pertains to "us".

I have bought all the books, found recreations for us(taking swing-dancing), printed out many articles and threads.

HELP....Now what?! If I just let well enough alone, he would say everything is fine. If I bring up problems, he says I am too negative. I have let things go, slightly encouraged talk and time.., tried EVERYTHING (well, probably not everything)..I have recently been thinking about a comment on a recent MB thread, "he doesn't trust ..[ME].. " . This is so true and I have contributed to that in the past, with my LBs and angry outbursts, really am doing better since I found this site, but still not perfect, of course.
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I am sorry that this is so long. I really need help.

I have now become very withdrawn from my H. I talked to him about a separation again. Told him that I do not know what to do anymore. I feel like this is very unfair to him though, in some ways. He states that he loves me and does not want to give up, and does not want to be a part-time dad. I really do understand the fathering part, and he is a very good dad. And my kids, what about them?! They really need some stability!! But i really don't think that this can go on indefinitely, I am very unhappy. Miserable, really. I went back on Prozac, but I don't think that is the real answer, it just keeps me from feeling TOO DEEP.

PLEASE ADVISE!!!

Thanks,
jls

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jonathan livingston,

Your situation sounds very much like mine was -- the closed, protected work environment with no spouses allowed, the constant yapping about one particular female or another, the insistence that you say OUT of his work life.

There is nothing normal or okay about that. And good luck convincing him that it's not, because the corporate workplace culture supports and enables this thing. It encourages the employees to leaving their marriages at the door and makes it seem normal and appropriate for them to do so.

All you can do is try to tell him what it does to you to be cut out of half his life. Try taking the Emotional Needs questionnaire with him. Will your H agree to POJA things with you? Mine will not, because that interferes with his work life <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . But you can at least try these things.

Is your H having an affair? Absolutely -- an EA at the very least. And you are up against not just him and his OW, but the whole corporate culture which supports, encourages and rewards this behavior.

Good luck. I'm there too, and I've been there a long time. Take care of the horsies -- at least they never lie to you, do they?
Mulan

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Thanks Mulan,

We have done the EN questionaire, along time ago. His replies were that I was doing great.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Mine were the typical women ENs unmet as conversational needs!!!!!!, admiration (don't feel respected and definitely was taken for granted, and always Openness and Honesty, even before all this.
He won't POJA.

I foresaw that this would happen. I always tried to make him feel appreciated (obviously wasn't doing a great job, altho he SAID I was). I knew that he didn't talk to me and probably needed to vent to someone at least occasionally. He doesn't have many close friends, at least that he talks to much.

My H does work in a closed workplace. It is a research type facility, NOBODY is allowed in. i do understand this, I used to work at a research lab. But I've always jabbered so much, if I had an A, I would tell on myself.

OT again -Oh, do you ride and what kind of riding? I know, probably eventing, that is the up and coming thing. I did a mini-event a few years ago. But 6 horses, 3 dogs and 3 cats, a pygmy goat, 2 chickens, and 2 guinea hens, oh AND 2 kids and a H , whew , keep me too busy to ride very much!!! No wonder I drive poor H crazy. At least with the animals, I can tell what they are thinking and they are very logical once you know about them. Trustworthy, for sure!!


jls

Thanks for validating my thoughts about his EA. I sometimes believe that I am as crazy as he says. Although I have never heard voices before! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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Let what else happens in regards to his workplace activities. If anybody's heard it all, I have. I'll translate for you.

***OT again -Oh, do you ride and what kind of riding? I know, probably eventing, that is the up and coming thing.***

nope -- I learned to ride saddle seat (Saddlebreds and gaited horses) years ago in Texas, and now own a five-gaited Saddlebred pleasure mare. She is the granddaughter of a World Champion stallion named Yorktown, and though she looks like a dainty little thing she has got the guts and drive of Kentucky Derby Winner. Funny, my H has always sneered at her because she's "too little." I'm just glad I didn't have to make the decision to have her put down last year. I pulled a piece of her mane when she was so ill, and still have it on my bookshelf. She is boarded at the farm where she was born and I go out to work her a few times a week. She doesn't say much, but is always friendly to me (was very shy around everyone at first) and seems to like having me around. That's worth a lot to me right now.

OT again about the screen name -- a few years I was at Disney's California Adventure. They have (or used to have) a lovely exhibit where a magic book would ask you a few questions about yourself and then tell you which Disney character you most resembled.

It said H was "Hopper," the bossy grasshopper from *A Bug's Life.* He was NOT pleased!

It said my teenage son was Hades, from *Hercules.* Son was THRILLED.

The book said that I was Mulan, "who fights for her family."
Mulan

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Shameless Bump***


Mulan,

Horses are my sanity, my "thing". Actually, all the animals are. I like people, but animals are so much better in a lot of ways!! I remember being a teen (even tho it was so long ago <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and my dogs truly helped me through those troubled times. Animals, esp. dogs, really do love unconditionally! My H has referred to me as Mother Nature (on our good days). Of course, when I recorded him, he was calling me "horsegirl", in a not-nice tone at all. It was worse than him saying Bit@h, altho he said that too!

By the way, Everyone..HELP - Post to me please!!!!

jls

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bump again ---- HAALLOOOOO, anyone?, anyone at all?!

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Hello jls,

I'm not going to give you any advice, since we are both in the same situation, but I do have a couple of questions.

Exactly how long and how well have you done plan A?

Has your H noticed the positive changes in you?

If you went to plan B, would his latest memories of you be positive or negative?

Just wondering.

You know that I have done both plan A and plan B without having confirmation of an A -- and I can't say that I've gotten the results that I wanted. (although I do feel that I have improved as a person as a result of it) My H is still keeping his secret. I think he is just trying to hide it better.

As for this:

Please don't tell me to forget it and go on. Honesty and Openness has always been one of my biggest needs and my H is not an open person to begin with. But downright lying is a bitter pill and I cannot/will not swallow it. Of course he has lied before: about both big and little things and almost always to stay out of trouble. He is a true conflict avoider! And I am quite the opposite, just let"s get it all out....and deal with the consequences.

I could have written THIS myself!

I wish there were a way that we can get husbands like ours to admit the truth. I've been doing everything I can --- always being as calm as possible, not overreacting to anything that he DOES tell me, and thanking him when he DOES tell me the truth about something - even if I don't like it. What else is there to do?

Another question -- does your H ever admit to being wrong about anything? Does he ever apologize to you? Or does he always act like he's perfect and that YOU'RE the one with the faults? Again, I was just wondering, because that is what my H does.

Ok, that's about it. If anything, consider this another bump to your thread!

svb

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Hi svb,

I did Plan A for too long. Started when I found this site, maybe a little before since I knew that he was upset with me about certain things. I have really come a long way with not LBing and no AOs. I have always been into self-improvement, as I was treated for depression for about 5 years off and on, when I was in my 20s.

NOW, though, I am becoming resentful (already there really), because of my ENs not being met and the No trust issue, and although I don't LB or anything, I have not been doing well in meeting his needs for the last month or so. Esp. SF.

I have never done a Plan B. I made him move out for about a week when I first recorded him. I was a mess! Still trying to get him to tell me who he was talking to and just emotionally twisted up. When he moved back, we tried to pick up the pieces. We went to MC, he went to IC and I did too (for longer).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I wish there were a way that we can get husbands like ours to admit the truth. I've been doing everything I can --- always being as calm as possible, not overreacting to anything that he DOES tell me, and thanking him when he DOES tell me the truth about something - even if I don't like it. What else is there to do?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have done this also, but issues of lying and covering things up came up right after our "incident" and still do. My H will NOT tell me things that he "thinks" will upset me, no matter how much I reassure him that I will handle the truth with kid gloves.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another question -- does your H ever admit to being wrong about anything? Does he ever apologize to you? Or does he always act like he's perfect and that YOU'RE the one with the faults? Again, I was just wondering, because that is what my H does. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H will admit to the littlest parts of a problem, but it is always MY fault that he did anything wrong at all. He apologizes alot, but not with any admittance of wrongdoing, just sorry that something happened. In other words, he says sorry for the sake of "getting over it" and going on!

How did you do a Plan B without confirmation of an A ? Did you just insist on certain changes in his behavior and on MC, and/or IC?

One more day for you svb. How are you doing? I'll look at your thread and see.

jls

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Hello jls,

I've been meaning to reply to you for a while now about this. Sorry it has taken me so long.

How did you do a Plan B without confirmation of an A ? Did you just insist on certain changes in his behavior and on MC, and/or IC?

I told him that as soon as he was willing to discuss and work on our M, he would be welcome to come back home. Well, he told me that he thought our M was worth working on (which is what I was dying to hear), and I agreed that he could come home, against the advice of some MBers here. I look back now and think that maybe I should have been more specific in my plan B letter - maybe I should have stated specifically that he could not come home until we started MC, and IC for both of us.

He came home and read the MB principles that I printed out for him. I also gave him the EN questionnaire (with my needs) for him to read. He read both. He said that the principles were nothing new to either of us. He said that he didn't want to go to MC because it is a waste of time (we went YEARS ago and he didn't like it) He didn't want to fill out an EN questionnaire to give to me. He said, "I don't even know what my needs are." He didn't discuss MY questionnaire with me. I am only assuming that he read it. He also kept insisting that he is willing to work on our M as long as I don't "push it."

So, looking back on it all now, it seems as if he just told me what I wanted to hear to come back home, not really planning on working on anything. That is what Melodylane, and others, had told me that he would to almost from the beginning. Actually, it's almost like he came home with the attitude "I'll come home and be nice to you as long as you don't keep talking about this M cr*p and you don't watch my every move." And, of course, he has never told me his secret.

So, I royally messed up plan B. The only thing I would suggest for you, is that, if you do plan B, be specific about the terms for him coming home - and really stick to it. Plan B was tough. It's nice to focus on yourself for a while, and it is peaceful (no spying and no anxiety!) but you will be willing to let him come home very easily. You will really want to believe everything that he tells you. Be strict. I can't even imagine how plan B would be with children. It has to be even more difficult.

I hope this helps you a little.
DON'T BE A SAP LIKE SVB!!


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