I have been reading a lot of posts lately and would like to bring up some things for all of us....wounded and unfaithful spouses alike.....to remember. <p>1. Every situation of infidelity has properties that are unique to the people involved. There are some fairly universal qualities, but just as each of us humans are different, all of our situtations are different too. What works for one might not for another...<p>2. No one here is "better than" anyone else. I have read posts where a wounded spouse indicates that they are "better than" their spouse because they didn't have an affair. NOT TRUE! Under the wrong circumstances, any one of the wounded spouses here could have had an affair. The sooner you accept that, the sooner you will begin to heal. Our spouses who were unfaithful made a stupid choice, but we are not better than they are.<p>3. God loves us all.....what He doesn't love is the sin in our lives. We all sin....even the most devout Christian allows their human side to get the best of them and acts in an unChristian manner occasionally. The difference is that as Christians, we can humble ourselves, sincerely confess and repent, and know that we are forgiven. Our goal is to be more like Christ...this is an ongoing quest that we must work on every day of our lives.<p>4. A big part of healing is making the decison to do it. Seem a little too simple? Well it is almost too simple....affairs tend to be complicated messes with a lot of "junk" to deal with. But the healing will only begin when you decide to do it....dealing with the junk and the fallout comes after the decision to heal and rebuild.<p>5. The blame for the affair lies only with the spouse who was unfaithful. It doesn't matter how many needs went unmet or what the marital circumstances were.....the wrong choice was made by that person with no "spousal input". <p>6. The blame for the marital problems lies with both spouses. Those problems range in severity in all of our cases, but they are there and they must be dealt with. I truly believe that there must come a time when you begin to deal only with the marital issues that existed prior to the affair and not connect them back to the affair taking place. They needed to be dealt with whether an affair happened or not. So go ahead and deal with the affair and the pain and then get to work on the really important stuff.....your marriage.<p>7. Unfaithful spouses must realize that it is their responsibility to focus on their marriage and their spouse and cut off all contact with the op. This can't be compromised. I also believe that if the unfaithful spouse truly wants reconciliation and restoration in their marriage they will make the effort to recognize and apologize sincerely for the specific betrayals that occured....taking full responsibility for their actions.<p>8. The wounded spouse can't wait for apologies to be offered before offering and beginning the journey toward forgiveness. Forgiveness is the beginning of the journey, not the end. Choosing to forgive your spouse doesn't let them off the hook or minimize your pain and anger....it creates an atmosphere of love and trust that allows the unfaithful spouse to share openly and honestly with the assurance that the wounded spouse will listen openly and acceptingly. This open, honest sharing and listening must happen on both sides. Tough stuff...but necessary. Full and complete forgiveness will come with time and effort by both partners.<p>9. You aren't going to just wake up one day and be happy...whether you are the unfaithful spouse or the wounded spouse. You will begin to be happy again when you make the decision not to live in the pain and begin looking for the positives in your life.<p>10. Like it or not, our unfaithful spouses are hurting too....and I'm not talking about this malarkey about "always loving the op". The unfaithful spouse who has recognized their stupidity and made the commitment to their marriage is in pain because of those very realizations. The knowledge of the pain they have caused their spouse and family, the loss of self-respect, the loss of the respect of others, the realization that they very nearly threw away the one they love.....all of these things cause great pain. We, as wounded spouses, must recognize that pain and see it as more evidence of remorse and desire to rebuild the marriage. We shouldn't try to "make it all better"...we each must experience our pain and grow from it. But we must accept that we are not the only one in pain in the relationship.<p>This is long and some of you may not like what I've said....that's okay, it's my opinion based on my own experience. I'm not a counselor or a "professional"....I'm just a woman whose husband made a terrible mistake and wants very badly to remedy that mistake. I am a woman who has seen God work a beautiful miracle in the midst of terrible pain and who loves and respects her husband.....mistake and all.

HGBRAWNER,<p> You should be a counselor. Your insight<br>has helped in just the few minutes since I read refocus <br>on sticking to plan b and its intent. It is difficult<br>for both the betrwyed and the wayward spouse. My wife is the wayward one and is sick this week with a terrible flu. <br>I've told her I would be willing to take our kids so she can <br>rest and recover a bit. She seems to think <br>I want something else, when I really don't. I'm just<br>worried about her and can put aside my anger and feelings of <br>betrayel to give her help. But, she doesn't want it. I can only offer and<br>hope she knows I am there for her if she needs me. It's her decision and I am letting plan b take effect. Maybe<br>she does not see a way out other than what she has chosen <br>over the past 10 months. It's hard to be there for someone when <br>they will not listen or except it. Anyway, thanks for the post.<br>I think this is something both spouses in this situation should<br>read every morning in a way to focus on their rebuilding or not.<br>Ken

HGBrawner,<p>Not liking what you say? I Love it! You really have insight!<p>I agree to 100%. Especially p. 2, 4 and 6 are "rules" that I really have been trying to live up to [since knowing of her affair].<br>Pp 8 hurts - because that's absolutely true. Day 3 I suggested that we try to work things out and I know that was the point when I, in my heart, actually forgave her. I haven't been able to put that into words yet, which I realize now is really stupid.<br>I really must try to find the right moment...<p>Marty

HGBrawner;<p>Once again you have touched my heart. I do love Carol. I think that it is so much more that I HATE what she did to our kids, and me. I would like for us to become a REAL family again. How can I find that trust again? How do I know that she really loves me? And what I think more hurtfully about than anything else is, will it happen again?

HBBrawner,<p>There is not one thing in there that you wrote that I did not like and every part so true. I have taken to printing your words so that I mass them along to my husband I hope you don't mind but I really think you have put all I have tried to say together so completely.....thank you!!<p>Glenn, <p>Your asking those questions again....but dear lord if you love Carol let her know off this forum and pull it all together since you both seem to want the same thing. You seem to have finally separated the love from the hate and as far trusting...you will never know unless you try, as far as will it happen again, there are no gaurantees in life but what from both of you seem to say it appears that you can get past this and make sure that it never happens again. You are both at a place that most of wish we could be at...understanding the why's maybe not completely and you may never but take that leap. <p>Kathy

Glenn<br>I am so happy to read your post! What a difference I hear now over a few weeks ago! I understand what you mean about "hating" what Carol did.....I hate the action too, but I can't hate the man. Can you separate the action from the person and realize that good people do bad things under bad circumstances?<p>As for trusting again...Glenn, that is a choice that you will have to make in the face of Carol's current behavior. I told my husband a few weeks ago that I had to find the balance between the naive trust I had that he wasn't capable of lying to me or having an affair and never trusting him again because he did. You have to begin to look at the present behavior, without the past betrayal, and take the chance. All I can tell you is that my husband is an open book.....I know where he is and what he is doing every moment of the day. This is at his choice, not my demand. He told me early on that he knew he had to earn my trust again and he was committed to doing that.<p>Glenn, I don't know Carol any better than I know you....but I have read her posts and communicated some in email with her. I believe she is a broken woman who wants nothing more than to have a chance to build a NEW marriage with you and to reunite your family. She can never erase the past or "fix" what she did....it is like the story about blowing feathers into the air and then trying to pick them all up....it can't be done. What is done is done. But the future is yet to be seen.....we can't change the mistakes of the past, but we can learn from them and reshape the future. Remember, too that one of the best gifts you can give your children is for their parents to love each other. You can show them that terrible things happen and people make mistakes, but that you can learn from those mistakes and grow into happier and better people.<p>You ask "will it happen again?" None of us knows that.....love is a risk....life is a risk. There are no guarantees, but I believe if you are both working hard, talking, listening, dreaming, reaching out to each other, and most of all trusting God, that the chances are extremely slim that it will happen again. We have a choice, Glenn, we can choose not to trust, not to take the risk of loving, and experience part of the joy life has to offer. Or we can look at the present, see the effort, and throw caution to the wind and experience all of the love, passion and excitement that life has to offer. The choice belongs to each of us.....and I can't tell any of you what to do. I know that all of the signs are right for my marriage and I choose having it all over safety.<p>Ken,<br>There is a group called Rejoice Ministries on the web....www.rejoiceministries.com....that you might want to check out. It takes longer for some than for others...don't give up.<p>Marty,<br>Instead of waiting for the "right" time...it may never come...make it happen. Satan doesn't want any of us to heal our marriages....he is in the family busting business. Fight back and win this battle!<p>One more thing to add to the list...<p>11. We will complete the healing process, but we will never be done working on our marriages. A good, strong, happy marriage is always a work in progress and takes lots of fine tuning and attention. We get the oil changed in our car regularly, but do we do regular "maintenance" checks on our marriages? Most of us let the most important human relationship we have take a priority far below everything else in our lives. Move your marriage to the top of the list, ask God to join you in it, and push up your sleeves for the most fun job you will ever have!

HG, my friend, brilliant post! You know that I agree wholeheartedly with everything in it so much that I think we (all of us who do agree and are on the forgiveness journey) need to continue to speak out, yell from the mountaintops if necessary. So often, things get so misconstrued in life, on this board, etc, that we just need to pull back and regain our focus. <p>Glenn, I've been meaning to post to you for quite some time but haven't had the chance. I think now I will seize the opportunity and do so on this thread. Glenn, you are a brilliant writer and possess that wonderful "writer's eye." Your movie reviews and criticisms show such profound depth of not only the subject matter, but your own introspection as well. Your intellect clearly comes out in your posts. But do you think that you are, perhaps, missing what is right there in front of you? <p>You've been posting on this board for a while, longer than I have, I believe. If you've been reading the posts as I have, we've read of some astounding betrayals on this board, haven't we? Some of the things I've read I would only expect to see in a movie, but these things happen. These people here and their experiences, as far as we know, are real, and I believe that. Now, just like HG says, we all are coming from a unique experience, and no one can judge another's pain. But when I look at all the posts written by spouses whose unfaithful spouse is continuing the affair, won't break ties, won't admit to the affair, refuses counseling, etc, etc, etc, I can't help but feel "fortunate" for my circumstances ....... being that my H has fully repented, is remorseful and is putting 150% effort toward rebuilding. Yes, that is a blessing, and I am forever grateful for that, because the alternative, as I've read so many times on this board, would have magnified my pain tenfold.<p>Life is a series of trials and tribulations, triumphs and victories. No one issued us guarantees that life would not "stink" sometimes. Glenn, what Carol did "to you," and I put that in quotes because I personally do not believe that unfaithful spouses set out to "do" anything "to us," but in making their selfish choices, we are caused pain, stinks. It does, you are right. It was a terrible betrayal to you, to your children, and no one can blame you for being hurt, angry or confused. But Glenn, you aren't the only one to go through something like this. None of us are. And I think for any of us to ask "why me" sets us up for the objective response, "why not us?" Glenn, it happened, what are you going to do now?<p>I see you as being in this great limbo. You can't move forward because you are continuing to dwell in the past. Yes, the recent past, but the past just the same. None of us will ever be able to erase what occurred. The fact is, my H had an affair. Nothing either of us ever do will ever change that fact. Carol had an affair, that will never change. We have no control over that. But we do have control over our future and where we are going to go from here. You asked HG, "how can I learn to trust again." Glenn, trusting is not a "learned" behavior, it is a choice. And we begin to trust our spouses when we begin to trust our relationships. But, again, it is a choice. You are either going to have to make it, or not. <p>There are many spouses here who would kill, yes kill to be in your position, Glenn. Carol, at least from what I've seen on this board, is remorseful and wants to recommit and rebuild your marriage. I know you keep saying that she only wants you "by default," but you know that isn't true. She still could have chosen to end the marriage even if things didn't work out with the OM. She still could have walked away with her "freedom" to be single. That is not what she wants. She wants you. She wants you. She has said this many times. She wants you. It stinks what she did, but she wants you. Can't you find anything to be grateful for in that? <p>Glenn, it is quite possible that if you were to reconcile with Carol, you would have the wife of your dreams. Very possible. My H treats me with so much love and respect now, more than I ever thought possible. If I were to allow my pride or stubborness to get in the way, I'd be missing out on the love story of my dreams. I couldn't imagine life without this man that I have before me now. Frankly, I'd be an absolute fool to turn him away. I know in my heart that there is not a man on this planet, or solar system even, who would do for me what this man is doing for me now. Yes, he made a grave mistake, but who is perfect? <p>This message was much longer than I had intended, sorry. But, like I've said, I've been meaning to post to you for quite some time so I had a lot to say. Glenn, this is marriage builders, as one thread pointed out, so I can't help but think that you post here because you DO want your marriage back. Carol has made it clear here that she wants that too. All it is going to take is YOU to decide to take not the first step, because Carol has done that, but to meet her half way. It's scary, that's true, but no one says that we shouldn't be afraid. We are all afraid. But courage is being afraid, but doing it anyway.<p>[This message has been edited by laurie (edited 11-19-98).]

I wish to thank Laurie and HGB for there great words of incouragement. I have been on this foram from the beginning, even though i don't post alot, i do read, and am learning alot about affairs, I only can hope that my situation turns out like HGB and Laurie's. They give me hope that the wayword spouse might come back and try to work on the marriage, i believe in everything you guys post, you are very insightful. You have been through alot. I will elaborate more on my situation later. Please keep helping us. And i will also say i get so much out of this whole forum and the MB Web site. It has helped me through some really difficult times since April. Thanks Again!!!! *H*

I'd like to add my thanks to "those who've gone before us" which is how I like to look at it. The more people tell us about their own stories, the more insight we get into ourselves and our own situations. The only caution I'd make to HGBrawner's rules would be to this one:<br> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>7. Unfaithful spouses must realize that it is their responsibility to focus on their marriage and their spouse and cut off all contact with the op. This can't be compromised. I also believe that if the unfaithful spouse truly wants reconciliation and restoration in their marriage they will make the effort to recognize and apologize sincerely for the specific betrayals that occured....taking full responsibility for their actions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Dr. Harley and other counselors believe that with an unfaithful spouse who will not or cannot break contact with the OP, the hurt spouse may have to deal with the unfaithful one never apologizing for his/her affair or other actions. This is due to the horrible self-esteem problem they probably have. I do not expect my H to ever apologize for doing what he's doing right now. He believes it is the right thing to do (leaving me) for both of us. Knowing his personality the way I do, when he realizes that he wants to be with me again (how's that for confidence), he will most likely simply move his things back in. He may never even say "I realize I want to be with you." And, I will never force that issue. Some people cannot say with words how they feel and admit with words that they've been wrong. In "Surviving an Affair" Drs. Harley and Chalmers basically state (this is not a direct quote, but paraphrase from memory): Don't expect the unfaithful spouse to apologize and take responsibility for the affair. You will be the one working the hardest on your relationship for a long time.<p>This is particularly true with a longer term affair that does not end when the hurt spouse discovers it. He or she is in complete withdrawal and denial at that point. When the unfaithful spouse returns to the marriage, he/she is still in withdrawal and denial... It happens sometimes. That's when HGBrawner's rule number 8 becomes of utmost and ultimate importance. Forgiveness is a choice, as is love and happiness and trust.<p>Thanks for the wonderful posts!<p>terri (posting from work)

Terri,<p>I'm glad you brought this up. Dr. Harley is a brilliant man. When I found out about my H's infidelity 7 months ago, I consider myself blessed to have found this site and I inhaled so much of the information on these pages, as well as ordered "His Needs, Her Needs." The resources here have been a true Godsend. But, I don't mind saying, I couldn't even get through the entire book. (And I'm a fast and efficient reader.) I read enough that applied to my specific situation, but discarded the rest. Bear in mind that Dr. Harley's principles and concepts are his opinion. Yes, he has other psychologists working with him who share his views, however, that is one school of thought only. There are others. We all must find the school of thought that works for us. There are many, many things that Dr. Harley prescribes that I full well know would not have worked in my situation, whereas they may work in someone else's. I know that in my situation, had my H not taken responsibility, shown remorse and directly apologized exactly as HGBrawner related, our marriage would have been over. Period. It has been hard enough to rebuild and heal even with him doing "all the right things," that I know we would have been doomed had he not. To me, not to accept FULL responsibility or not to apologize, over and over if necessary, is completely unacceptable. For me to do some of the things that Dr. Harley advises a betrayed spouse to do would have created so much resentment and hostility in me. Call it a character flaw or a weakness, but I know that my personal makeup would not have allowed me to forgive and heal if I didn't believe my H was exerting 150% effort to right the wrongs. I believe in fairness and righteousness. I can forgive my H because he shows me daily that he is no longer the person he'd become when he was unfaithful. He shows me that he is a new man, one who is humble, compassionate, honorable and righteous. If he didn't accept responsibility, show remorse and directly apologize, I wouldn't be able to make this assessment and I do believe our marriage would have been over. But again, that's just me. For you, or anyone else, that may not be the case. And that's ok. But that is just another reason why I get down on my knees and thank the Lord for allowing my circumstances to be within the realm of healing, forgiveness and rebuilding our marriage for us. I know things could have been different. I see it everyday on television, in the newspaper and on these boards. <p>I'd say the best thing about Dr. Harley, though, is that he is a staunch supporter of preserving a marriage at all cost. I think that's a good thing, because after all, we did marry "til death do us part," and sometimes we forget that. <p>Terri, I hope you get to enjoy the weekend some!

HGB, you hit all the major stuff on the road to recovery. Here's a few more we found helpful in the three months since I discovered my wife's affair and told her to decide what she wanted. <br>* Stay together if possible, the first reaction is to run, hide and try to make some sense out of everything. Forget it. It will never make sense. <br>* If the decision is to try to work things out-<br> talk more, touch more, do more for your spouse.<br>* Be patient. It took time to get here, it will take time to get to where you want to be.<br>* It's easier to Love than to Trust.<br>* Share your feelings, the one who had the affair must know how you feel. You must be honest with each other.<br>* It will be harder for the one who had the affair to be honest and talk about their feelings. After all, they are the one who decided to lie, cheat and look outside the marriage.<br>That's it for now.

test<p>[This message has been edited by laurie (edited 11-22-98).]

Terri,<br>We may have to "agree to disagree" on the apology thing . My concern with what you relate from Dr. Harley's book is that it seems to allow the unfaithful spouse the "out" of never apologizing or accepting responsibility for their actions and puts all of the pressure on the wounded spouse to restore the marriage. It seems that this leaves the door open for subsequent affairs and also leaves an open wound for the wounded spouse that that can cause continued anger and bitterness. <p>I realize that my situation is different from many....we have been exceptionally blessed. My husband's affair was very brief (about 3 months) and had just 2 sexual encounters. Perhaps this was part of what made it so easy for him to cut off all contact immediately and to make the apology he did. He got on his knees before me, took my hands in his, and apologized as he cried. This happened the same night I confronted him. Even still, 9 months later, we both need to be specific about the things we are apologizing for and forgiving. The "blanket" apology and forgiveness were a beginning, but we need to take it deeper now.<p>My beliefs on forgiveness and apology are based on my Christian principles. I realize that not everyone desires to follow these principles and that is fine; but for those of us who do, I believe that both forgiveness and apology are necessary to total healing. It may take months, and in some cases years, for both to happen, but I believe they must happen for healing to be complete.<p>I am commanded Biblically in Matthew 6:14-16 to forgive my husband. "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." This might mean initially accepting an unrepentant spouse back home with forgiveness in order to begin reconciliation.<p>But my husband is also commanded Biblically in Matthew 5:23-24 to apologize to me. "Therefore if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother, then come and offer your gift." This might mean initially apologizing to and accepting an unforgiving spouse in order to begin reconciliation.<p>Offering forgivness can't depend on receiving an apology first and offering an apology can't depend on receiving forgiveness in return. But I do believe both must happen at some point.<p>In "Torn Asunder" Dave Carder writes...."One of the first things an angry and grieving spouse wants is the guarantee that this will never happen again. The closest thing to a guarantee that the infidel won't stray again is for him to feel fully the pain that he has caused the wounded spouse.".... I believe it is at this point that the apology will (and must) come.<br>Of course, this requires that both spouses be willing and committed to working to restore the marriage. One spouse can't restore the marriage alone.<p>As Laurie says, Dr. Harley is one author and bases his opinion on his beliefs....there are other authors with different opinions and methods. I like Dave Carder because he bases his opinions on the same Christian principles that I hold....there are still some things in his book that don't apply to my situation however. Each of us must find someone whose beliefs we can follow and apply in our own situations.<p>Like Laurie's husband, mine has put forth 150% toward our healing. He has actually worked harder than I have. This was by his choice, not my demand. I'm not sure we would be where we are today without this commitment on his part....a commitment that came from his faith in God. We both had work to do and things to change personally and our goal is to never let our guard down again.<p>I truly hope that you get the chance to reconcile with your husband, Terri, and I pray that you will get the apology you deserve.<p>[This message has been edited by HGBrawner (edited 11-23-98).]

HGBrawner,<p>I really enjoyed this post: it's one that I copied and 'archived' for myself.<p>But I want to add my $.02 to the issue that Terri brings up about rule number 7. This rule, while being a 'ideal situation' to bring about a quick restoration of the marriage, will not happen in every case. In fact, in a large number of cases involving a spouse in 'withdrawal' and in a very involved affair, 'uncompromised' insistance of rule #7 will bring nothing but divorce.<p>Dr. Harley is a behavioral psychologist: he has dealt with a large number of marriages, and distilled those rules from what he has observed. For the type of marriage I described above, it's clear that it's in very bad shape. And that it would likely end in divorce. And even using all of Harley's (and others') rules, several STILL end in divorce. My marriage was that way; even though I would have never identified it as such prior to the affair. I was a 'good' husband, a good father. Things weren't 'blissful', but they weren't that bad, were they?? (yes... for my wife...).<p>To expect a person to give up an affair (their 'soul-mate') to go back to their spouse, who they haven't cared for in a long time is quite a stretch. Again, you have to see that the marriage is extremely damaged at that point. But there is still hope.<p>One person cannot save a marriage single-handedly. But one person can make real effort to start that process; and it can make the difference in a long process where the unfaithful spouse hasn't yet committed to saving the marriage. I hold myself up as an illustration that the principles in 'Surviving an Affair' can work to save a marriage that is in extreme distress. I also will tell anyone who cares to listen that by following these principles will lead you to point where you will be better off emotionally and spiritually no matter what the outcome. For those successful in REALLY perservering through a period of 'fence-sitting' by the other spouse to the point of winning back their trust (to work on the marriage); the 'apologies' and 'responsibility' will all come with time. And in my case, by the time my wife was ready to apologize, I didn't 'need' to hear it from her. Because I could tell that she was committed to trying to make our marriage work, and that's all I ever wanted. <p>You and Laurie paint a picture of one type of affair; that of a spouse having an affair (a 'mistake') and being remorseful. What if your husbands hadn't been remorseful? What if they were glad that they had had their affairs (at the time)? What if they were upset with you for trying to make the marriage work? In Laurie's case, she says it would have been divorce. <p>The beauty of Harley's methods is that they can work through much worse situations than you and Laurie have been through (not that anyone WANTS it to get worse). And as Laurie points out, Harley will save a marriage at almost any point (physical and chemical abuse notwithstanding). The chances of saving a marriage that is that far gone is harder and less successful. But for those who want to make the attempt, they need to have the best guidelines available to give them a chance to succeed. And of what I've read, Harley's "Surviving the Affair" is right up there.<p>So that really is my only 'issue' with that wonderful list: it rolls a lot of your other points and basically says: apply these points to your marriage NOW: not 'after' your spouse gives up the OP, or until they apologize. Unfortunately for some of us, that's the only chance we have.

K,<p>...which only validates Rule 1.

Marty,<p>Exactly... ;-)

HGB,<p>Thanks for your post. It is good to hear someone else echo what I have been living. I agree with everything you wrote and I have lived it and watch God work a great and mighty thing in our marriage.<p>I just wanted to add that we also have to decide to love the wayward spouse. It is this love that energizes and heals both the victim and the infidel. I cannot explain it but the more I love my wife the more we distant ourselves from the affair. The love is contagious and it allows God to work in us. My wife still remarks that she cannot believe we are still together. When I focus on what we have it far outweighs the negative.<p>I venture to say that even the memory is becoming easier to deal with. Please pray that my wife continues to heal because she does suffer from guilt ocassionally especially when adultery is talked about at church. Sunday a preacher was reflecting on how our actions can shadow our accomplishments and cited King David's adultery. His question was, what was prominent about David, and the answer is his sin. Of course my wife was saddened for the rest of the evening.

K, HG and I are always very quick to say that everyone's situations are different and unique. I answered someone's post recently, I think it was Macmab, and I encouraged her to read your posts, being that you were in a situation similar to hers where her spouse is choosing the OW over her. I have no idea what to advise in a situation such as that since mine was completely different. I thank God every day that he allowed my situation to unfold as it did. You are correct, I do consider my situation to be "ideal," if there is such a thing in these circumstances. I am grateful and humble.<p>And, yes, you are correct I did say that had I found myself in a situation where my H was choosing the OW, was not remorseful, repentent and did not issue resounding apologies, it would have definitely been divorce. No doubt about it. It has been hard enough even under these "ideal" circumstances. I could not have survived a situation like some that I have read about. Being faced with that scenario would have produced too much resentment and hostility in me to have a happy marriage. But that's just me, call it a character flaw and speculation if you will, but we do know ourselves better than anyone else. I love my H more than I've ever loved him because he has been humble, remorseful and loving. If this had not been the case, I don't think I could have continued to love him. So, I feel that God protected me from having to be faced with a situation that would have proved to be the end of my marriage. Just one of infinite reasons why the Lord is my shepherd. <p>God bless, and K, continue to be an inspiration to so many who are in your situation. My hat is off to you!

K<br>I think we probably agree more than we disagree here. You are right, my situation was probably as close to ideal as you can get in the trauma of an affair. I am more and more grateful and aware of that as I read the stories posted here. My heart breaks for those who aren't finding the healing they so desperately seek.<p>I can't tell you how I would handle a "fence-sitting" spouse.....I'm not sure I would have handled it well. I know that in our case, I was crying hysterically, huddled in the floor of the room that I confronted my husband and the ow in at church. I looked up at my husband and said "you have to choose" and before I could finish the the word "choose", he replied "you". I was certain deep in my soul that I had to issue that ultimatum at that moment. I was also certain without even realizing it that he would make the choice he did. In fact he has told me many times since that there was no choice to make, he always wanted me and never intended to leave me for the ow. His greatest fear was that I would leave him.<p>My list is really geared more toward the situation where both spouses want the marriage and are ready to work on it.....not where there is ambivalence or the affair continues after discovery. This is the situation that I am familiar with....I can't speak to the other except to say that God is the source of all strength and guidance.<p>I haven't read "Surviving an Affair" and am only responding to what has been discussed on this board. I haven't decided whether I will read it or not.....I might to try to better understand Dr. Harley's concepts. As I posted last night....we each have to find an "expert" whose methods and beliefs we can understand and work with. Along with that, and really most important in my opinion, is finding a qualified counselor to work with individually and as a couple as you move toward healing. The books and message boards are great, but they can't take the place of that specific help you get from ongoing counseling. <p>Eugene,<br>You are so right about deciding to love our wayward spouse. This was an easy choice for me in the face of his love and commitment. I also understand about your wife's reaction to the sermon. We have faced that ourselves and it was hard for both of us. I guess that is part of the fallout of the choice to have an affair....we have to allow our wayward spouses to feel that pain so they can grow and heal from it. In our case, the sunday school class we are attending at the new church we have chosen is studying the Ten Commandments. You guessed it...this coming week's lesson is #7 Thou shalt not commit adultery. I have decided to let my husband make the decision whether to be there or visit another class that day. I won't force him to be there, but I won't protect him from it either. Every time we face the pain of his affair, we take another step toward complete healing as individuals and as a couple.<p>I'm glad to hear from you Eugene.....we are on pretty much the same timetable and I'm glad to know you are doing well. We are happy and content, getting ready to become involved in a marriage ministry in our area. My husband made the final decision that this is what God is calling us to do out of our experience. He is nervous about sharing our story, but believes it is what we are supposed to do.

HG,<br>That list is incredible. Especially number 4. Once both of you decide to make it work, it can. Without that, there is no chance. That is not to minimize the other 9. All are important. <br>One other thing to remember is that the road is not level. Peaks and valleys are the norm. Peoples emotions do not recover at a steady rate. Memories, conversations, movies, etc., may set you back in your recovery. "Two steps forward, and one step back." Thanks for you posts.<br>