**pasted from Rec board for a broader perspective**

For those who do not know me, a brief intro...

M'd 14 yrs to HSS, three children. H had PA #1 back in 2003, we had some good "recovery" & then I recently learned he had another EA/PA...this one much more involved, with a woman who works where his office is located. This A lasted about a month... and he said he was "in love with her"! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

He had promised NC, and I let him move home. He was having back surgery and I was really wanting to believe him and help him through. His surgery was on a Friday. Monday was Valentine's Day, Tuesday morning I found out my Dad had died. I also found out my H was a big, fat liar!! He was still in C w/OW although they hadn't been able to "hook up" cause of the surgery & all!

He wouldn't leave, so I had to! I was not going to be "one of his girls"!!! I took all three children, all my $ and left town, originally planning on driving the 13 hrs to my father's funeral. About 5 hours into it baby girl got real sick... we spent the night in a hotel and came home the next day so she would be around her pediatrician and her hematologist.

On the way back I called and told him I wanted him out of my house! Told him I wanted a D and I was done fighting with him. Unbeknownst to me he had retrieved & printed the NC letter I had made (and he wouldn't deliver cause it "wasn't necessary"- cause there was still C, duh?!) and it was given to OW that evening.

She did not take it well at the time (tough!) She really thought she was gonna ride off into the sunset w/ my H of 14 yrs and I would stand quietly by!!? Go figure, she had even met me! She even thought she was going to be some kind of parent (GAG!) to my kids... she was oh so sweet to them when she was screwing their Daddy... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Anyway! This was nearly two months ago. H has been living out of our home since then, but it is here every morning to get the kids off to school and here every evening, usaully til they are in bed. We are seeing a Christian MC as an IC right now, since H moved out. Older two kids are seeing her now, too.

Progress has been made...he is trying, I am trying. Dates, niceness, avoiding LBs and lots of talking about issues. Still, H says he is not 100% certain that we are "doing the right thing"... he also says he is afraid we will revert to old ways in 6 months or so and be back here again, says he can't bear that. He is very apologetic, has asked for (and just received) my forgiveness... Still, seems hopelessly slow and I am not happy with the "I am not 100% confident that we will make it" Shouldn't he be? Is this a normal & healthy response? I guess I should be pleased it isn't a false promise...

[color:"red"]ISSUES:
1) Both are survivors of CSA... he is just dealing, I have had many years to work through mine (but I still have a Mom who says "you were not sexually abused"... um, yeah Mom, ok, whatever!)
2) His entire family was incestuous growing up. Also, his Dad cheated on Mom repeatedly, she had a revenge A and they D'd. Thye both still talk often and now live near us in the same town again... very stressful. His sisters moved away to "escape" them!
3) We are both passive-aggressive co-depedents!
4) He had a back injury yrs ago that caused the roles to reverse. For the last 7+ yrs I have been the primary bread winner, making up to 90% of the household income. Lots of resentment here... LOTS!
5) He is a massage therapist and is very good... still, he works on naked woman all the time and some make passes at him. I don't exactly trust him right now!
6) I am a complete and total control freak, esp since making all the $$$. I have torn him down through the yrs...learned it from my Mom,though I didn't mean to!
7) Both of us wants a good "Christian" M but have no idea how to slide the roles back. I want him to be the head, let me be the heart...but it has been skewed for so long, it is difficult to let go and trust he can do it (for both of us!)
8) He tends to bury it all, choke it down and resent... I am trying to become most approachable but get tired of gleaning his feelings out of him.
9) I am incredibly impatinet. I am a "fixer" and struggle that I cannot make it better.
10) He is a sex addict, suffers frm chronic depression (requiring 2 daily ADs) and tends to become obsessive w/things (exercise, diet, tattoos, peircings, etc). I am an overweight food addict who has taken to drinking alot more than my norm to dull the pain. I also suffer frm depression, but am on and off the ADs (currently on for obvious reasons!) [/color]

Oh yeah, and as far as NC... OW still works at the gym where H's office is. He still sees her several times a week and she is even talking to him more lately... all "business" but not at all necessary IMHO! I have a great deal of trouble w/ them seeing each other regularly although I do not believe the A continues.

Seems bout a mess, doesn't it?!

Are we "on track"... Is this a plan at all? Plan B seems harsh since there is alot of effort on his part. Am I still being impatient? Pushing too hard? Am I being foolish for believing this man is capable of change? I do not know what to think anymore. Some days I feel very loved and hopeful, and others not much of either.

OK, if there are any 2x4s, be gentle... I bruise easy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi TNT -

A couple of thoughts: first, as a Christian, forgiveness is part of our life: if your husband is truly sorry and willing to work on your marriage, do it! Thru Jesus, who is the example of forgiveness, you have the ability to do the right thing. I wouldn't worry too much about the "husband being head' and 'wife being heart' part of your marriage: what you need to do is concentrate on your vows to one another, and then learn and use the strengths and weaknesses of each other. Look up your Meyers-Briggs temperament tests to find out how you fit toghether - God brings you together because your strengths cover your spouse's weakness and vice-versa....

You are on the right track - watch the alcohol - it's very easy to rely on - a quick fix to a long time problem - I've been there - and still fight that demon. Turn to the Lord - thru Whom all things are possible...

David

OK, lost my reply!!

Glad to see you are still around, David.

We had a huge blow-out tonight...big!! I had a bit too much to drink, he had some too. I challenged the "not 100%" thing. I clarified w/him, he says he is not 100% certain about the M and success thereof. Yep, that just about sealed it for me! The gloves came off...

He asked to table it til MC tomorrow, but I did not want to let it go. Said after all the work *I* have done here, he has no right to be uncertain (yes, I do realize how wrong that was!)

He started talking about my "soapbox" and that I was talking down to him, etc. Only partly true, he was over-generalizing, IMHO. I basically said that if he were not going to really committ to recovery than I needed to know so I could go on w/my life.

I told him how much it hurts that he still sees OW all the time. I feel stuck there. Then when I said something about moving on he said "you can't move!" OK, I took that as a major challenge!!!

WTH? I can't move! Wanna bet!? Then he started talking about lawyers and fights, says I am not allowed to take his children anywhere. I challenged back, exactly how does he expect to get any sort of custody after 2 As, chronic depression, family history of abuse, documented violent outbursts and a lack of regular income?! I did not say all of this but close enough. Not to mention he is living in a small trailer that belongs to someone else... and only has a room to hs use!

He left all pissy. He came back a short time later. I apoligized for the LBs and the arguing, but told him I have grown tired of feeling like *I* am still second choice. Yes, i am inatient, but this is ridiculous!

As the BS, is it expected that I will just hang around in the shadows til he "finds his senses" and realizes what he was walking away from?!

I guess I need to go dark to him, close off that hole before it bleeds me dry. Geez! I have pneumonia cause I am worrying myself sick about life and the twists it has taken! Still, not sure what "dark" looks like without becoming completely unavailable to the work he is doing... I am a mess! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

TNT!!!!!!

I have been EXACTLY where you are tonight! My LORD! This could be an identical story! LOL!!!

Let me give you a secret.....psssst listen carefully...hee hee...

Going dark protects YOU. It may not do ANYTHING to change him (it didn't with me STBXW) but is does one VERY VALUABLE THING...it builds a strength and capacity in yourself that will BLOW YOU AWAY!.

I'm not actively advocating plan B - but it seems like you've done a good plan A and you need to make a decision: what is more important: your current relationship, or what you CAN BE, what you REALLY ARE. There's a huge difference.

And although it didn't work for me - plan B can be enough to shake a spouse into coming back - I hope that it will be true for you - if that's what you want. In any sense, plan B will give you confidence, ability, assurance, and credibility that you can't get elsewhere unless your spouse is already there with you.

I will be here all night if you need to post more - can't sleep anyway - but I've been thru what could amount to hell and am coming out on the good side - and maybe I can help. In any event, you are in my prayers. I'VE BEEN THERE!!!!!!!

David

Sorry to hear that you are D-ing already! I followed your story and know how much you fought for it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I do love this man... have for 18+ yrs!! But am not sure who he is anymore...

Glad you are up cause I cannot sleep, either. FWH is here, decided to stay over. Still can't bring myself to crawl into that bed with him as if it is "normal" again when it feels anything but!

I have thought about waking him to talk, but feel like he will get pissed off if I do. That man likes his sleep!!

Still, I am left with a very uneasy feeling...he says he had such a "good day"... funny, I hardly heard frm him today! (guess that would be yesterday now!)

It is supposed to be an IC session today for him, but he wants us both to go. He did quickly realize after leaving here last night in a huff that we were acting like children. I guess that is a good sign.

IF he is not in an active A, how is it that he can still say he is not 100% sure about working on this M? WTH is he doing here then? Why go to MC and IC? Why lull us into a sense of "it's going to be ok" while keeping his foot toward the door? Seems cruel and unusual punishment to me!!

Yes, I am a control freak. I have been pushing for him to leave his office casue OW still works there, but I am not acting on alot of what I'd really like to do... like hanging out at the gym glaring holes through OWs head!! Like calling all her family and letting them know what a wh*re they live wtih!! Like ruining FWHs business by exposing the A to his clients...

See, I have been good!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If he cannot see the work, the effort, the trials and ultimately the pain...WTH am I fighting for?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

TNT -

Just a couple of questions: what have you done to make sure the A is over? One valuable thing to remember is that if he is over his A, he still has a huge withdrawal to go thru, and that may require that you kind of hang back and out of sight (so to speak) for a while - my warning is this: just make sure that any affair in which he was invollved is truly over - Harley's suggesion of an NC letter is probably the best.

2nd question - if you've kept up with my story, you know I am very involved in the ER dept of my local hospital. From your title - I'm wondering - are you in the medical field as well????

David

oh, and the alcohol... bout done with that. I am only "self-medicating" anyway! I am a nurse for Pete's sake! I know better!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

May just be talking to myself at this point, but it is sorta therapeutic so bear with me!

Pros: H has been my first love since we met when I was 15. We have a history, a friendship, and 3 beautiful children. He is the first person I want to share my triumphs and heartbreaks with...he is my best friend. He has loved me through morbid obesity, transient depression, troubled pregnancies, chronic health issues, nursing school, financial crisis and psychotic parents!

Cons: He has lied to me repeatedly, covered some of his deepest secrets including questions about his sexuality, his true sexual addictions and has had oral sex performed on him by a man (gag!), performed oral sex on a client during a massage (A #1) and had a full blown EA and sexual A with a nasty Jerry Springer knock-off!! He told me he was in love with her and was planning on leaving us for HER!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

After all this, he moved home leading me to believe that we were going to try, only to maintian C w. OW while lying to my face. He used me for the comfort, the shelter, the love and the $$$ I could provide him during his surgery, but then could not (or would not) be there for me when my Dad died, just 3 days later!!!

He has manipulated every emotion and taken me on a roller coaster ride from h3ll. I beleive he is not truly committed 100% and he agrees, but says it is cause of "fear". I say it is more cake-eating and fence-riding...I am frankly sick and tired (literally!!) of it!

If he feels like he is not committed, why does he keep saying he is not "ready" to say he is giving up on this M...but he will let me know if/when he is!? How kind?

Do I sound angry? Bitter? Tired? I am! I am also incredibly sad because I expected to be in a better place by this point, not feel like I am thrusted back to d-day!!

Also, he did break NC a couple of days ago. Not that NC has truly been established since they still work in the same building and see each other at least several times a week!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> But, they had a "brief" (his word) conversation about his tanning and then about a now former employee of the gym, spreading "rumors" about them and their A. Wahhhhh! Whatever! I told him that NC meant no conversations, esp about their A!!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Bout ready to wake him up! Grrrrrrr!!

TNT,

From what I have read on this board it takes awhile for a FWS to come around, even after the affair is over. So many BS on here in recovery wait along time to hear true repentence from their FWS. And a long time to hear the conviction from him which I agree, you need. And I know exactly what you are getting at with him saying he is not 100% sure. That really makes you feel secure, like you want to continue with him. But give it some time if you can. I hear that at about the 8 month mark of recovery the tables often turn.

If I am reading your timetable correctly, it was only since Feb of this year that he ended his affair, right?

Recovery is a long, extremely difficult process. But if you can get through it and with the hard work you are both putting into it right now with the MC & IC, etc, you may very well have the marriage you want some day.

The thing that worries me though is that he still works with the OW. That is not good, and would be very hard on you. He needs to find a different job, and soon.

Hang in there TNT.

...well, working on that part. He did get a part-time job doing massages for a spa, and he is talking w/a chiropractor about doing massages for him. This will leave no time for his own business. Still, it is all a process.

This is why my 1st instinct was to walk away, move frm the area. Too much pain, too close for comfort! The moving is apparently a hot button issue for H, but tough... I did not have the As!

TNT RN - okayyyyyyy.....just my humble opinion, so if it upsets you get mad at me, not God.

Neither one of you appears to have a very good relationship with God, so I'm not surprised to hear of the ongoing stuggles and failures.

Don't you BOTH think it's about time you stopped PLAYING at being a Christian and actually start BEHAVING and ACTING as a Christian should, as someone who professes to love the LORD should,......being humbly obedient to God's commands no matter what you are "feeling?"

If you think it might help you I have a couple of pamphlets that might help to get you both started. Our MC used them with us when we began going to Joint Christian Counseling. The are called "Marriage, Whose Dream?" and "What Do You Do When Your Marriage Goes Sour."

If you'd like them, drop me an email note at mbforeverhers@yahoo.com and I'll email them to you.

May God grant both you and your husband the wisdom to hear Him and obey Him, He IS the Lord of your lives.

God bless.

Ouch!!

OK, I might take offense if I did not absolutey agree with you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> In fact, this AM when H got up we discussed this. We have not been attending church lately (I have been working alot of weekends). He has all but refused to go to PK, he has refused my offer at finding a "Godly" couple to mentor us, he has refused to do anymore than absolutely necessary.

As in the past, my prayer life has slipped and I have lost my focus as well. I need to go with or without him! God has opened this awesome opportunity for me, a new work schedule with no nights, no weekends!! This, to me, is a very clear sign that He is wanting me to come back to where I belong.

H had an IC appt today, said he feels better though he sounds depressed. Says it is *his fault* that he has not been standing up and "being the man" by asserting himself when our wills collide. I take my cues frm him... if there is no protest, I must assume there is agreement... but no, of course not. He has been slipping back to his old ways, and so have I. No wonder I am feeling so lost: I am!

Since we are on the subject of colliding wills... how is it that I can protect myself without a clear POJA (though I haven't given up on it yet) and still yeild to him in matters? Trust me, this will be a major hurdle! H has been having some kind of mid-life freakout lately... he has had his nipples pierced, his tongue peirced and a new tattoo applied this week (that I knew little of and FYI are still illegal here!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> WTH am I supposed to with that?

But seriously, FH, I appreciate your input here... always have. I would love to hear what you can suggest *I* can do personally to re-align my heart and soul. I still have the "one flesh" thread bookmarked so I can read through it thoughtfully... alot to absorb.

I also know this lack of sleep is enough to drive anyone insane! It certainly isn't helping my gloomy mood!

ok, so sleep still would not come!!! Grrrr!!!

FH, I appreciate your response on the reovery board also, gave me alot to think about.

I keep hearing NC is a "deal-breaker". I know that intuitively, I really do. A NC letter was given and has been mostly upheld to the best of my knowledge. He is seeking employment outside of the gym... would most of you consider this sufficient effort?

I walk the line between "selfish demands"--- "If you really loved me you'd leave ther now". and feeling like a doormat--- "I understand how hard it is for you to give up this business, and I appreciate the efforts you have made".

Which is it? What is the proper thing to do? FYI, in prayer I am seeing patience, but that may be what I *want* to see...

[color:"blue"] Well I am often one who stand on symbolism. It was 7 yrs ago today that FWH fell 25 ft and fractured three vertebrae. I thank God every day that he did not die in that fall, that he was not paralyzed, that he was not brain damaged... <sigh> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

I see today as a chance, yet again, to start fresh in my life. I choose today to be happy and fulfilled, even if that means I must walk through fire first to get there! *I* deserve that! My children deserve that...my H deserves that!

I am trying very hard to "let go and let God". Much easier said then done, esp for a recovering control-freak... hyper-vigilance is a way if life for me, it is how I survived childhood... but the ways I used as a child do not serve me well now. They ae not conducive to becoming the strong, Christian woman I want to be!

OK, now exactly how do I translate this into action?

As far as the NC thing... I have said my peace about it. H knows my desires and he is making efforts to change his practice so that he does not have to see her. There was a NC letter given, essentially laying it out in black & white that the intention was to end the realtionship. I do believe that has happened.

I am not satisfied with status quo but I can not make him yeild to my will... this would sort of defeat the purpose of not trying to control his every move. Yes, he obviously is not willing to put my needs first behind God right now...in fact I believe it is still very much his needs that he is concerned with.

Knowing this, should I withdrawl and go dark as much as possible? Seems like that is my option, but very hard. I miss my H, I miss my friend! I do not like the thought of witrhdrawing from him, esp now when I feel so vulnerable.

How on earth am I going to work through this for me? To the best of my abilities...?? How do I conform to the Lord's will and sort what is His and what is mine? I am sooooo tired, but still can't sleep yet! [/color] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Any "fresh" advice? TIA!!!

I think that you placing so much of this frustration on yourself because you are trying to act like you are in recovery...when you aren't...

I think that you need to go back to a really good plan A...

I think that Plan A is ALL about dealing with a spouse that is CHOOSING contact ..
you have said every which way one person can say no contact the good the bad and ugly ways....

time to plan A with a concrete plan B goal and date...

revisit the list you made in above...
and change it to all I statements...too much of you wanting to control and change him in it...and it can't and won't work...

look at your list again and if it's not a direct issue that YOU change...let it go....

your husband will either come to value you or not.
you can not force him
you can not demand...

but you must act and treat yourself as valuable...

first thing I would tell you is to quit acting/reacting emotional and think before every move...
at one point in this post you were talking about waking him up from sleeping to talk..
that is futile
and will set up and type of GOOD conversation for immediate failure...and it's failure would be your 'fault'

stop all chaos in your life...
work on getting in control of the issues that make you unhappy or feel unhealthy..
the eating issues...

make time for exercise to feel better...

you can't ask someone to commit fully to recovery and then get angry at their answer...

if he can't commit fully now thank him for his honesty and quit forcing the issue...

it has to hold great value and meaning to him..
will it ever?
I don't know
you don't know...

but if you can try to back off and plan A for a three month period really really trying to work on issues....and free yourself from any real expectations you may find that instilling hope and kindness back in to your marriage is a big big plus...

quit talking about issues and work on yours....

draw strength from each small tiny goal you accomplish...

you gotta build your husband up to be the man he is worthy of being...
he and you both feel so bad that you just attack eachother viciously...time for you to stop

each interaction should leave him feeling good about himself
each interaction should leave him wanting a little more of that good feeling..

that is the big long term goal in a healthy marriage ...correct?
start visualizing how you see treating him in the future and do it now...

ark^^

TNT_RN,

Can U handle another POV? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> U R working too hard on this R. For your health and benefit stop. Pull back and let the WS turn himself into an Xws then into your H. Wait until then to even begin to work on the R. Why? Because as long as you do the bulk of the work, the WS has not incentive to try. Why should he? From a warped POV, the WS will see you doing the work and will want to cotinue to inflict hurt to you, something your real H probably would never do. Yep, even worse than your H's worse traits and days (when he was your H that is).

ID your boundaries and implement them. Work on your health and safety of you and your children. Let the WS feel the brunt of their actions. No more soft and kind words for someone who is bent on inflicting pain. Instead take a look at implementing plan B ASAP. At the very least there w/b action. Not always in the right direction but movement means he is still alive. Even if he moves with the OW, don't fear. You will hurt but don't fear. OWs aren't that great and they have a hard time of holding onto their WS'. That is why some of them do drive bys, make harrassing calls to the BS and family and even send horrible e-mails.

Learn how to reverse babble and don't enable him by doing too much for him. He needs to put his own pants on.

JMHO,
L.

I was quite surprisedto see this response, but am glad you did reply.
What amazes me is how different Orchids response was.
I guess I am doing something similar, trying to not let it be about him anymore and more about me. I somewhat puzzled why you say that we are not in recovery? Is this because he does not live at home?
He is not currently having an A although he does see the OW at times through work. We are working on our issues, even started a POJA today and we are getting somewhere. I am trying to move past the need to control every detail, and I am finding this very difficult. I am seeing the IC tomorrow and it will help to talk it over some. Whatever it is we are in, I am not happy with the status quo.
I am literally struggling w/thoughts of having my own “revenge” A. No, I will not do it because I know the reason it seems so attractive.
am sad and lonely, tired of being alone. I want to feel loved and H is not exactly raining me with love and tenderness right now, although
It seems to me he should be, after all, he had the A!! I have forgiven, maybe more than I should have at this point.
Regardless, it is still difficult to say my M is over at this point!

You know what H’s #1 issue is in our POJA?
Me losing weight! That and not asking him over and over if he is “ok”... as arc suggested I made the list again w all I statements
[color:"red"]ISSUES:
1) I’m a survivor of CSA... I have had many years to work through mine (but I still have a Mom who says “you were not sexually abused”... um, yeah Mom, ok, whatever!)
2) There is a history of infidelity in my family
3) I am a passive-aggressive co-dependent!
4) For the last 7+ yrs I have been the primary bread winner, making up to 90% of the household income. Lots of resentment here... LOTS!
5) I don’t exactly trust him right now!
6) I am a complete and total control freak, esp. since making all the $$$. I have torn him down through the yrs...Learned it from my Mom, though I didn’t mean to!
7) I want a good “Christian” M but have no idea how to slide the roles back.
8) I am trying to become most approachable
9) I am incredibly impatient. I am a “fixer” and struggle that I cannot make it better.
10) I am an overweight food addict who has taken to drinking alot more than my norm to dull the pain. I also suffer from depression, but am on and off the ADs (currently on for obvious reasons!)[/color]

”each interaction should leave him feeling good about himself
Each interaction should leave him wanting a little more of that good feeling..”
Thanks, I guess I need to re-evaluate my goals and decide what it is worth to me!





My keyboard is broken sorry

TNT:

You are not in recovery because he is having contact with the OW. In RECOVERY, the WS has NC with the OW for the rest of his/her life. No conversation, period!

I think your WH is playing you. I would think that a massage therapist can easily find work elsewhere, right away. Ask him if he needs your help with this? How could he dare have a conversation with her about his tan? That's is unacceptable and shows that he is not taking this serious and is not repentant.

A revenge A? Are you serious? Do you see that recommended anywhere on this site? Is that what a married person should do?

I agree with ARK. Plan A because you have done a lot of LBing. PLAN B is not effective without PLAN A. I feel strongly about following the MB System in order to achieve success.

[color:"red"] I agree about revenge A I do not want that was saying I see why it could happen will write more When keyboard fixed [/color]