I've spent a great deal of time lurking; haven't felt much like posting. For anyone who knows my situation, things are still pretty much the same: in the process of ironing out our D; trying to take care of three kids and hold onto life...

But I have a problem now with DS17 that I am a little....no, very concerned with. When WW left, DS17 refused to even talk to her for a while, then kind of cooled off and will go visit her on occasion (rarely tho).

This weekend he is gone spending it at a friend's house. I snooped thru his computer chat logs and found some really disturbing things - 1) he has been contemplating suicide, talking it over with friends - he says he wants to live, but that he hates his life right now. 2) I found a lot of gay porn pictures on his computer, and even some chats from gay people. I am understating my concern here, mostly because I feel a little numb - I don't know how to address either issue.

Any suggestions would be helpful.

David

David, in my opinion you need to seriously address the suicide talk and soon! Then see if you can get a counselor to talk to him about the gay stuff. Can you put some restrictions on your computer in the mean time to not allow him into chat rooms? Very scary stuff, have you spoken with his mom about this?

Wow! That's scary. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It's so hard to guage a teen's reaction when you initiate a difficult conversation. I know if it was my kid...I'd confront him with the information, because that's the kind of relationship we have already.

I also know that sometimes he doesn't immediately understand what I'm saying to him, and depending on his mood...the message gets twisted up in his mind somehow. What seems to be a clear statement to me, is often received by him as something totally different in meaning.

Maybe family counseling would be the way to go. You could sneak up on the subject by tipping off the therapist. I would definately start making some phone calls first thing Monday morning in order to find out how to handle this effectively.

David, good to know you're still with us, even though you are lurking instead of posting.

DS17 is obviously very confused right now, as he should be. It is a difficult time for a 17 year old just to be 17, let alone deal with friends, life, school, parents, etc.

You said you checked out the chat logs -- what are the responses he is getting from the friends? Do they seem concerned?
I am told that any time someone mentions "the word", you should tell someone and get help. My WH mentioned the word suicide on 3/21, after Dday # 2 (3/20) and I called his counselor the very next day.

On more than one occassion, my father has also mentioned suicide, and it just tears me apart. He knows two people who were fairly close to him who have lost their lives because of this. It was depression.
David, has your son shown signs of depression that you have noticed? Feelings of worthlessness, just doesn't want to face the day etc?

My son, only 10 years old has mentioned more than once how his life is not worth living sometimes and it just tears me apart. He has ADHD and I know that it makes him much more likely to have these kind of problems. It breaks my heart and I am on the lookout for any signs at all times.

Please do not let this go unnoticed. You are being a very strong and concerned parent by checking those logs David. I am so glad you have done so. I don't remember if your kids are in counseling, I'm sorry.

Not that counseling is going to save the world but it helps. My kids and I are in a divorce support group, Divorcecare, through a local church. The kids go to DC4K (Divorcecare for kids) and I go to the adult version on the same night.)
I think this program is only for kids up to age 12, but sometimes, support groups can be better than one on one counseling. I know it has been better for both me and the kids, for some reason.

Does DS17 have any close friends who have parents who are divorced? He needs you so much right now. I know he probably seems like an adult at 17. My WH, age 38, seems like an adult too, but has always needed very close support regarding his parents, so it really doesn't matter, the age.

As far as the gay porn and chats, it may be that he is just testing his sexuality or is maybe just curious. I used to be a hairdresser and learned a lot more about the gay lifestyle from my male co-workers than I thought I ever needed to know. I learned that who you choose to love does not matter, male or female, as long as you are happy.
Even though I am straight, I'm thankful for that experience because I know that whoever my children choose to love does not matter. (The only thing is that I may not get the grandchildren I hope to have someday - lol.)

Please email me David if you want to talk. This just scares me so much and I don't want you to have to go through yet another traumatic experience!!

Please take care!!

Dave

when I was in child services we ALWAYS took even the mention of the word or even a reference to ending pain very seriously. That your DS17 is talking about this with friends is a worrying sign. The gay chat I suspect is a because he has found some sympathy support from a non female source which right now he probably will not want.
Boys especially have a very close bond to mums in teen years even with all the 'teen' stuff going on.... dads do get pushed away a bit or just left out .. thats generalisation of course.

When that bond is broken as he might feel it has he is going to feel a bit lost even with dad there. Kids do blame themselves even 17 yr olds.

DO NOT assume its just talk. DO get him some help he is not coping well.
Unfortunately it is his moms fault - do not try to kid him here - and he will probably always have some difficulty in his relationship for some time - maybe years, maybe forever - with her.
Its how you express your pain and hurt which will also have a impact on him. Its hard to do of course.
I suggest you get counselling for you & kids together.

Very sorry its come to this for you & the kids.

Pete,

Speaking as one who has had suicide training on the crisis hotline, I agree that whenever someone says the word "suicide" or talks about killing themself, it should be taken seriously...especially when it is your dear son!

Here are some clues you can look for:
1) Is it some generalized talk about how much life hurts and how he'd like the pain to stop?
2) Does he have an actual "plan" to kill himself?
3) If he has a "plan", has he prepared to do that plan? (For example, if his plan was to take pills, has he gathered and hidden some pills?)
4) Does he have the opportunity to DO the plan? (Using the example, the pills are gathered AND he has figured a way to be alone in the house while everyone else is out?)

See, Pete, if these clues are progressively more dangerous--and obviously I have been somewhat simplified here, but you get the drift. If he has said some generalized statements about hating his life and wanting to die--I'd say it is worth it to talk to him about the seriousness of that kind of talk, and also about how almost everyone feels that way sometimes...about how normal it is to sometimes feel like you have nowhere to express the pain in your heart, and all you want to do it not feel that pain anymore...about healthy ways to cope with pain.

If he has a plan--he has thought about it more seriously. This could be potentially dangerous, and probably warrants going to a counselor or talking to someone trusted (pastor maybe?) who has some suicide training.

If he has begun to execute his plan--this is VERY serious and warrants immediate action. I would say, call a counselor and let them know it's urgent...and then get your butts in there!

Finally, if he has the stuff to execute his plan AND has created the opportunity to do his plan--Pete, call the police 911. It's that urgent. Yes, he may act like as if you are totally overreacting and being completely unreasonable, but you will probably save his life. You may feel somewhat "embarrassed" but let saving his life be your motivation and CALL!!!

Does that help a little???

* * * * * *

Now regarding the gay porn...hmmmm. I have two thoughts on that one. First, if he is a typical hormonally-charged teenage boy, he may just looking at everything in his horny way. Nothing personal, but dude, you were 17 once--you know how a 17yo can look at all different kinds of porn and just enjoy thinking about horny stuff. It is not utterly inconceivable that he is openly considering every aspect of sexuality and experimenting with his own sexuality. Lord! How many girls in college do that EXACT thing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

My second thought though is that if you have reason to believe there may be more to it...well that's a tough conversation to have with a child (son or daughter!). I would suggest that maybe you have a friend, someone who knows you and knows your son and is kinda friends with you both, help you both to have that discussion but in a safer setting for you both. My educated guess would be that your son is at least "thinking about" homosexuality and probably feels like he could NEVER talk to his dad about that...and you have feelings about homosexuality but none of which would make you love him any less! Soooo...I suggest you use a friend who he trusts and who you trust who can help you two have that conversation without feeling so vulnerable. He would feel like you aren't going to scream at him and throw him out of the house and stop loving him...and you would feel like you aren't going to get the biggest shock of your life and have to deal with it alone. And that way, BOTH of you could discuss this gay porn in a very frank, but safe, environment.

Do you get what I mean, Pete?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

If I can be of any further assistance, you can email me at faithfulwifecj@yahoo.com or via personal message--okay??



FNCJ

Hi Faithful - no I haven't spoken to his mom about this, mainly because we are already going thru some fairly nasty divorce stuff and although I feel that the anger and dispair he is experiencing is a direct result of her A and consequent moving out (and having an OM there while DS17 was spending the night), she is still in such a fog that she blames everything on me - and I don't feel like putting up with the fight that would happen if I brought the issue up - I feel that, since I am basically his only real parent now, I need to deal with the issues myself.

Might be the wrong thing to do, but if you know much about my STBXW and the way she has of controlling me, I am safer stayin basically in Plan B and keeping contact to a minimum.

David

David, I understand. I had hoped since the D process was underway that maybe you and STBX were getting along better..sigh..one can always hope that someone will do right by their children. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Read CJ's post..she has some good advice there. I know you will take this seriously. I have a 21 y/o son and I know how emotional and confused they can be at 17. My son is just in this past year becoming a real human.

I will keep you and DS17 in my prayers.

Hi Ladyjane -

You know, the really odd thing is that DS17 and I have been very, very close his entire life - I homeschooled him for 12 years, we've spent countless hours doing things together - spemding all night studying the constellations and countless hours studying music theory and mathematics - and we have always been close - so it was a real shock to find that he thinks that I am unapproachable in this issue.

I've initiated conversation with him about the issue of trust, and I hope (and pray) that we will be able to get past some of the walls that he has put up - there really is no reason - I love him very much and he will always be loved, no matter what happens....

David

Thank God you snooped David!

{{{{{{David & DS17}}}}}

Hi CJ - I've worked suicide hotlines as well and I went thru several of his posts looking for some of the more 'red flag issues' - one of the things that did strike me is that a couple of the people with whom he has constant contact also talk about suicide and killing themselves - in fact, one of them wants my son to kill him - has asked him outright to do it. It's weird enough for me to already have my guard up and be ready for getting him into PCC at my work or at least into councelling anyway.

So, addressing your clues:

1) Much is generalized pain - over his mom leaving, the destruction of our family, etc - although at the same time, as you well know, there is someone who has some very strong influence over him and has helped him a lot already.

2) He has not formulated a plan, as far as I could tell - abnd I also read an argument that he wrote to a friend that his music means too much for him to throw away his life - you know what a gift he has, so I take that as a comforting sign that he is more or less just expressing frustration.

3) The medication is in the house - Caren and you both are aware of the danger that exists in my house - my own medications can be used for some very dangerous applications - I've hidden them very well. HOWEVER: I do not know what he has hidden away, nor do I know what his friends have available. I feel very helpless in that aspect.


I am thinking about a councellor - although I am very experienced at suicide counselling - I don't think he'd take it as seriously from Dad as he may from someone else.


CJ - I think you know enough about me to know I would not be embarrassed about bringing up the issue - my problem rests more in the shock of finding out how strongly this whole issue (mom in an A and moving out of the house, etc) has affected someone who is usually very steady and calm and almost singlemindedly involved in his art.


I tend to agree with you on this, but I am a little unsure about how to bring this up - I had a very traumatic (make that extremely traumatic) event that occurred when I was about his age and sex was such a scary topic for me that I was unable to speak about it with anyone for a long time. I'd like to be there for him to help him thru this, but I am not sure he is willing or able to speak about it with me.


Yes, CJ, I know exactly what you mean - hopefully I can get that conversation set up this week sometime....

Thank you....

David

I'm no expert, I can only tell you what I would personally do if that were my boy.....and I would definately provide him with an unbiased, third-party to talk to.

No matter how close the two of you have been, or how close you are today....he's probably not going to share with you any thoughts that he believes will cause you pain. He's already witnessed you going through sooooo much recently. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It could be that because your are so close, he'd be more hesitant to share any unpleasantness. He loves you, and he won't want to be the cause of any additional pain.

Unfortunately, even though he looks really grown up...he doesn't have the life experience to make him understand what he's seen. As an example...you, yourself, probably never truly understood how much a parent could love a child, until your own was placed in your arms.

He may blame his mother primarily for the dissolution of his family dynamic, but somewhere in the secret recesses of his heart...he may be blaming you a little as well. How could he ever tell you that without causing you more grief?

He could tell EVERYTHING to someone else...because nothing he could say would cause them any harm. That's why I would arrange an opportunity for him to do just that.

I'm not certain if I would share the "snooping" with him....probably not, unless it was absolutely necessary. But I'm not sure I'd be doing the right thing there, so I can't give you any advice about it.

Yep--I know you do have some training there big guy, so that's why I would encourage you to trust your training, trust your intuition, and just remind yourself to face reality and not go into denial. If you do all that, I am VERY confident that you have what it takes to deal with this...and you have a great support network of people who care about you, friends, family--all of whom will be there to help you BOTH get through this.


See?? Trust your instinct on this and don't second-guess yourself. This IS pretty wierd and would definately raise concerns in my mind, so it is reasonable for you to feel a bit creeped out. It sounds like on at least one level, that some of the people he hangs with or writes to (or whatever) are the ones feeding the fire of teenage angst and death-talk. That's not to say your son isn't in danger, but the one who asked DS17 to kill him--that is a person who needs help and seriously and immediately.


From what I know of your DS17, this was my general impression too, so I think much of your intuition on this is on-track and not far off-base. See, your son is in the unenviable position of being old enough to understand what happened with his mom (she left because of a boyfriend) but NOT old enough to have some of the skills and tools to know how to deal with the pain of that. Shoot--lots of 40 YEAR OLD people don't have the tools for that!! So he is conscious of his mom leaving the family and leaving HIM for a boyfriend, and he has all the pain of that, but he doesn't have good ways to deal with it within himself. Except for his music.


Well, not to dismiss it, but I think that right now one of the only tools he has for expressing his hurt, feelings, etc. is his music--and I have to be honest with ya--from what I know of him, I think that's one method he has of expressing himself that kinda works for him pretty well. He DOES have an enormous gift, and I suspect that may be the one thing that, well frankly, does stop him from going further.


Well, I do know that there are prescription medicines in the house, but of course that's not the only way to plan to kill yourself. Thus, I would definitely suggest keeping a tighter lid on those prescriptions for now, as well as being as aware as you can about other options. Does that make sense? And part of the issue here, Pete, is that the goal is for your DS to want to live on his own. I don't hide my pills and knives from YOU because I have reason to believe that you want to live on your own. And yes, if I felt like you were in a depression that was dire enough for you to seriously consider suicide, yes, I would HIDE the pills and knives and stay with you all the time--but I would ALSO get you the personal help you needed to want to live on your own. Get it??


Okay--in this instance you are a good guy, but don't let your own "embarrassment" or "shock" or any of your own issues stand in the way of calling 911 to save your son. That's what I mean. You definitely will have an emotional impact from this, but don't let doubt and second-guessing from your own issues stop you from acting on behalf of his life. Okay?? Promise???

Now, do ya remember that old saying "Still waters run deep"? I think it applies here. Your DS may have been a calm, steady, single-minded being as a younger child, but now events have occurred in his life that shook his foundation, unsteadied him, and taken his mind off of his art. Writer's block...artist's dry spell...musicians who can no longer hear the music in their souls--an affair and events like a divorce can really harshly affect an artist person and when they can no longer hear their muse, it may feel as if they've "lost it". So, yep, his general character may in fact still be calm, steady, and single-minded, but speaking from my own personal experience, when I went through my divorce I was seriously shaken and did not always ACT like my true character and personality. Does that make sense??


Ahhh... I see. Well, this is why I recommend a third party--someone both of you know and like pretty well, and someone you both feel fairly comfortable with but who also has at least some moral compass and stuff. This is a conversation that may be EXTREMELY difficult and uncomfortable for you because of your past trauma, but it is still your duty as his dad to at least facilitate SOME kind of discussion as best you can. See, having had a very traumatic childhood myself (both sexual and physical abuse) one of the things that has been very therapeutic for me has been to SHARE my experiences and pain and how I coped, etc. with others. It helps me to heal my own wounds, and I think it helps others to feel safe to talk about sort of taboo subjects and feel like they are not "abnormal" for thinking or feeling that way. But it takes a LOT of courage to speak about those things.

Yep, the talk needs to take place, but if it is utterly painful and hard for you, get a good friend, pastor, counselor, or someone to help ya out.


I am very, VERY confident that both you and your DS17 will do what it takes to have this conversation this week. I KNOW that there are people available to you who can help you get through this and who are willing to help--so reach out and ask for the help. And be sure to talk to the folks here on MB who care about ya, and come here for some support and encouragement, okay? BTW...did you know that this Wednesday is my birthday? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It's going to be an INTERESTING week, huh??

The birthday girl,



FNCJ