Like I said on the EN thread, I've been in this spot a number of times, I relent in the hopes that things will be different and I always end up here at square one.

I don't want to keep repeating this pattern anymore.

Because W's income this month will be about 350 dollars. Her income presently is at best around 600 dollars a month.

We can't afford 2 homes until she works full-time.


Now why would I do a stupid thing like that?

They don't need to know the particulars of every issue that we have.

What people fail to understand is that all I have ever asked is for a consistant effort. While it's true that I am overweight, if I didn't go to the gym as often as I do, I would be fatter than I presently am.

While it's true that W has made efforts to lose weight, they have been much more sporadic than my own efforts to remain healthy.

At times when she has lost weight, I have been much happier, not because of what she looks like but because 1. the effort made me feel like she thought I was worth it and 2. sex always "worked" much, much better when she was exercising.

Anyway, I don't know why I still bother to try to explain, but there's the answer in a nutshell.

Slap,
Once the kids are in school full time it will probably be easier for Pam to find a full time job and not have to worry about day care. With what it costs for daycare now I can't imagine if she did work full time that she would make anymore than she is making now after paying for daycare.

I think you really really need to step back and try to look with in yourself and find the real reasons you are unhappy. I think it is just way to easy to blame Pam.

My EX blamed me for alot of stuff that really wasn't true. He has married 3 times since we were divorced in 2000. He too is searching for something that is unrealistic. Sometimes yes, a person really just isn't happy being married to who they are married too. I think if you are that unhappy then it is time for you to move on. You may have to work an extra job for awhile to support to households but then you would be free. Here in MN if you have a retirement fund and you get divorced the retirement fund needs to be split between you. Would that give Pam enough money to get by for awhile? Just so you know I am not supporting you. I am very angry that you have taken your unhappiness out on your wife and talked about her as you have on this forum.

Pam if I were you I would have his and his Mothers suitcases packed and set out the door. This is not just his decision. Nobody should have to take what you have just had to put up with.

I also question what he is doing on the internet so much. Many affairs begin as internet chats.

Maybe plan B would be good for both of you.

If such comments were made to any female poster it would most likely be considered cruel and unnecessary. Why the double standard?

I have to say that I agree with this.

You would think that comments about a person's personal appearance would be in violation of the rules of the board...besides being classless.

It's confusing to say the least.

committed

Now, there's a compelling argument for you - "Honey, hurry up and find a job so I can leave you!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I think you should wait at least 6 months after you move your mother out, before you make a decision about separating from your wife.

Your mother is meeting some of your ENs - including FS, which you identify as one of your top 3. It's hard to say how much of the tension in your home is due, directly or indirectly, to your mother's influence, but it's clear from past posts that it's a considerable amount. In some respects, she may be functioning as an OW in your life, and every bit as destructive as a romantic attachment would be.

Tread carefully

Ba,

My understanding of what some of the folks were refering to concerning his looks was referenced from his thread on the EN Board about himself.

Slap,

I'm having a harder and harder time being tolerant of your position, even though I have REALLY tried to be. Much of what you say about your W and your M sound just like my H. You may think you are the one who has done all the work, and suffered all the wounds - just like my H does. However, in my H's case, I'll tell you that our MC and IC's don't agree with his "self-assessment". Neither do his former friends, and some of his co-workers. What's wrong with this picture? A focus on just one's self - and what he/she isn't getting, has become a MAJOR red flag to me. Things are not that simple in my experience.

You may think your happiness is the ultimate goal, and that anything else isn't worth living for. You may think someone else has to provide you with what it takes to be happy. Or, perhaps you think someone else has the power over you to make you unhappy.

If that's truly what you think, I hope you will quickly end your M, so your wife can be set free. I also hope you will not put another woman in the spot of trying to have a meaningful relationship with you.

I personally won't get involved with another man who's perspective is that I better meet all his EN's or else. Because I know I'm not perfect, so I'm going to fail sometimes. And I want to have SOME kind of life of my own. I'm not going to put all my energies into taking care of someone else, who it turns out can't be happy unless I make this effort, and on his terms. I dont' want to be responsible for someone else's happiness or wellbeing. And I don't want to be blamed for the lack thereof.

Now that I have nobody in my life to meet my EN's, I'm finally free to take responsibility for my own wellbeing. And you know what? There isn't a single EN on the list - including those at the top of my list - that I can't get in other ways. I do NOT need a spouse to provide them for me. And expecting someone else to provide them is a crutch that is unhealthy and disrespectful to the other person, and to myself. None of the EN's are worth having if I make them so important that they dominate my life or become demands on someone else. Then they become a new kind of addiction, like drugs or alcohol, that color my attitude and determine my life for me. Priorities and perspectives can get way out of whack if one isn't careful.

I have an image in mind of what a M should be like, and it isn't just a collection of EN's, carefully measured out and quantified. I believe the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. The value in being together should transcend the minutia of our lives. We should find pleasure in each other's company because we find pleasure in ourselves - we love and can be loved in return. We should get more out of our relationships than just things we can measure and document on some balance sheet.

This is what I'm working on for myself. I still have down times, but I have times of great exhilaration when I realize how empowered I now am.

The EN approach is beginning to sound to me like one's personal happiness is at the mercy of another person who must be there to meet their needs. The very concept is easily turned into, "what's in it for me?" I surely hope that's not the intent of the message.

I truly hope you take a peek from the outside looking in, and think seriously about what is really important in the overall scheme of things. If you and Pam split up, how will things be better for you? What will you really gain, and will it be worth it in the end?

You may be too young to be philosophical about these things. Sometimes I think it takes years, mistakes, and wrong courses to finally figure out what matters.

Slap,

I would like to recommend finding an attorney that does a free initial consultation, and setting an appointment so that you can find out all that you need to know to help you make this hard decision. What are each of you entitled to? Can she get spousal support as well as child support? Is she entitled to half of your retirement account, etc?

Pam isn't here asking advise, so we are pretty much stuck with working on you, darn it, doesn't that suck?

In all the time I have followed all of your and Pam's post, I can only think of one EN that she has expressed....so, can you tell me what her top EN's are? I am really curious about that. As well, how does she feel about an in house seperation? How does she feel about progressing towards divorce?

I also have a couple more questions...

You have stated that conversation is one of your top EN's, yet a while back you stated that you did not want to talk to her about your day or hear about her day when you get home. What are the areas of conversation that are acceptable to you? It seems that since that time she has withdrawn a bit and the conversation has gone down hill since, is it possible that she has been thinking that by not having conversations with you and giving you the space you wanted that she THOUGHT SERIOUSLY that she was meeting your need for space?

Is the order of priority of Your EN's on the EN board in the proper order? If so, can you tell us a bit more about the SF need, is the lack of fulfillment there because of frequency or is it due to the AS?

Is there any possibility that all this time that you have been working towards a better marriage that there has been some miscommunication about EN's and that there are EN's of Pam's that you have not been meeting that have just perpetuated the cycle of both of you feeling it is hopeless to try?

I understand that you are feeling pretty hopeless right now, and I really hope that you take Star up on her offer.

Also, think of the questions you are going to ask your dad, and think of what you know about your parents marriage and divorce. How will you answer similar questions for your boys? If some day they come to you and ask about the reasons that you divorced their mom, why would you not be comfortable telling them ALL the issues that led to it, including the AS issues? AS is a valid need, as has been battled here so many times, why would you feel at all uncomfortable telling them that AS played a part in the destruction of the marriage? I just don't understand why you would feel it is wrong to tell them when it is such an important thing to you.

TR,

I know most of the regular posters know what slappy looks like. He has posted pics of himself, pam and the children on occasion. I don't recall that he ever posted any of the images as an attempt to display his or her measure of attractiveness.

I just think it's a low blow. If I referred to any woman on the board as fat, obese, large, overweight, unattractive,...whatever, I would be considered nothing less than intentionally hurtful.

I don't think that slappy's appearance is 'fair game' as one poster put it, regardless of what he thinks of himself or what pam thinks of him.

I don't see anyone referring to pam's physical features in a negative manner.

I guess the occasional comments regarding slaps physical appearance just strike a nerve with me because of the double standard thing going on.

He seems very stoic when reading such comments but I'm sure they hurt just the same as they would any woman who was the recipient of such comments.

Regardless of the negative comments a person makes about their own appearance, it does not give us license to add insult to injury.

ba - I do see someone displaying Pam's looks in a bad light - SLAP! So don't go saying this is unbalanced!

You know, You've read enough of my husband's posts to know that a number of my emotional needs are not being met. One of those is "attractive spouse". That doesn't give me license to up and divorce him, and not even by Harley's rules does it give me license to cheat on him.

Kasey is inconsistent in his efforts to meet my needs. I deal with it. I live with it. It doesn't make my life peachy, but I'm responsible ultimately for that, not Kasey. Slap's blaming Pam for not meeting his needs, for him not "loving" her anymore. BUNK!

There are people here who's spouses are like Pam or Kasey, and have unmet emotional needs. They still put forth the effort and actively "love" their less than perfect spouses.

There are other sources for Slap's unhappiness, and it all starts with Slap - he hasn't put forth the effort to "love" Pam.

Slap has been bound and determined to take this course for quite some time. I'm sure he'll get exactly what he has put into his marriage, and it bears repeating. He'll find someone else who starts out meeting his EN for AS, and then, because he puts little effort into maintaining his love, because to him, it's a feeling that just happens, not one that is earned, he'll find that she's less attractive, even gaining weight, and all the other ENs will go less than met, and he'll find himself in the same stoic place, only this time, ratchet up that magnifying glass on his earnings ability. This could be a very very expensive lesson before Slap learns that love is earned from action, not a gift that comes and goes.

I'm sorry, I can't help giggling over this issue.

Actually, it would be a double-standard for Slap NOT to be fine with people making cracks about his lack of attractiveness. After all, he felt the need to explain that he finds me unattractive, and when that didn't get much reaction, he expounded on it further and made it clear that I was supposed to be *gasp* hurt by this. I found it hilarious that he would think I cared.

Anyway, he thinks it's fine to try to hurt someone by posting here about how they are unattractive. By the standards of most public fora, that does make it open season on him -- he invited it. It's certainly not the high road, but neither is complaining on his behalf without also addressing his own shortcomings on the very same point.

I'm surprised by the responses and curious as to the motive of such comments but I have threadjacked enough.

This is turning into one of those "how to post respectively" kind of threads and I generally don't go there.

Slap,

Pam would be entitled to half the money - regardless of whether it was in some retirement account or in a house.

She would also be likely entitled to alimony since she has a reduced working capability until she graduates and you have always had to bigger income.

She would also be entitled to somewhere between 21 and 25% of your gross pay - (read 30% or more of net) for child support.

Since you seem to place a lot of importance on financial issues, I thought I'd make it more clear to you just how painful divorce can be financially.

During pregnancy my weight would go up 50lbs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> - a significant amount since I'm 5'2" tall. I'm sure that my second husband probably regrets the unkind things he said to me at that heavier weight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> when he sees that at 40 and a slim size 8 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> - that given enough determination and encouragement (read positive reinforcement), regaining a lost figure is not impossible to regain.

Sunny

Slap,

What I'm finding missing in your posts is what needs of Pam's you have met. Why is this important? Because it may explain the lack of effort on her part.

You alluded to the fact that you think she is too dependent, but you haven't detailed why. What does she say she needs from you?

Then, to consistent effort. What does that mean? Is it everyday? Is it every week there is some effort to find a (diet or need-meeting) plan that works, while she doesn't have a working plan, or everyday/week when she is on a plan?

BA,

I agree that looks, for anyone, in almost any situation, should be off limits. When we all posted our picks, it was fine to ooh and ahh (briefly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />), but to use that information to hurt someone, regardless of their position, is IMO the wrong thing to do.

I try not to tell too many folks they are attractive, because then it could lead to inappropriate thoughts/behaviors or offend those whose looks I do not praise, and I try not to tell folks they are unattractive because well, that just seems mean.

I do understand the thoughts behind some telling this to Slap just now, but I'm not sure it's entirely helpful.

And yes, I see some folks saying that Slap is always wrong (about his wife). Well, I have agreed with him on occasion, but I generally diverge from anyone wanting to divorce (on what I perceive to be flimsy grounds), so it's not just Slap.

~ZP

Hilarious?

That's very sad. In fact, it may be the saddest aspect of the whole sad situation.

It's sad that Slappy finds his marriage intolerable. It's sad that Slappy is so desperate that he resorted to cruelty in an attempt to force change. It's sad that Slappy cannot seem to find a way to make the changes in himself and in the life circumstances with which he has burdened his wife so that she might be able to find some motivation to make her own improvements.

But when the only reaction Slappy is capable of getting is derisive laughter at the idea that he ought to expect a reaction - at the rather natural idea that his wife should care at all what he thinks or says... Well. Conflict is sad, but withdrawal is sadder.

A little financial relief ought to suggest the opportunity for getting some help for the marriage, where both parties can get some specific guidance into changes which will restore the marriage and save a family. Instead, the hopelessness and woundedness of withdrawal points to the far, far more costly and painful process of breaking a family apart and suffering an emotional and economic fallout from which there can never be full recovery.

Hilarious?

I'm not laughing.

KaleyAndy, I have a question. Do you believe in the LoveBank concept and the theory that romantic love is a reaction to the stimulus provided by the other person?

What you said in your previous post about it being Slap's fault because he didn't put forth effort to love Pam suggests you do not believe in those theories.

I'm just curious.

Really, how so?

The rest of your post kind of wanders in and out of making any sense, so I can't really comment on it.

But yeah, I found it just plain funny that some stranger I've never met who lives in another country and is moreover married should think I should care whether he thinks I'm attractive or not. Why would that not be hilarious?

My misunderstanding. Simple case of mistaken identity.

I did? I don't remember that.

I don't even know what you look like.