I really have a hard time understanding how people come to this conclusion.

email me at sweetandspicy99@hotmail.com

I know -- silly of you, wasn't it?

It was this post, before you deleted it:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=024613;p=1#000012

followed by the further expanding on how I was supposed to be "insulted" on another thread.

[color:"blue"]I think this is called withdrawal. [/color] Correct me if I'm wrong, but you aren't talking about dating or living a single life while in this "transition separation" are you?

I don't think acting like you're single would work well for anyone, and think about the lessons the kids would take away from it. But, if you want to have limited contact, and sleep somewhere else, it may work.

I think a lot, if not all, depends on your wife's attitude. If she's just waiting until the finances are ripe for a split, then she may be on board. If she thinks you have a good marriage and she's still thinking of spending the rest of her life with you, I'd see problems ahead.

This is the kind of feedback I'd give anyone here on the DV section. Along with you both should brush up on the divorce laws in your state. It makes a HUGE difference.

Oh, I think I know what you're talking about, I didn't say you were unattractive.

If I remember correctly, you said something about having all kinds of men wanting sex with you because you're so good looking. I said that I wouldn't want to have sex with you.

That wasn't because I think you're ugly, it's just because on that day, I thought you were insulting and had a lousy attitude.

I'm sure you're perfectly attractive, physically. But trust me, I really don't care, either way.

I don't know what it would look like yet.

You have mail.

GG,

Love is much more than stimulus-response, or I would have fallen in love with a young college student from Tunisia with green eyes, who sent me flowers, followed me around like a happy puppy, tried to make all the right moves and find out my emotional needs to make as many deposits as he could. Didn't work. He didn't wait for me to invest in the relationship, although he really triggered the attractive EN.

I do believe in the validity of the love bank premise. How do you balance that with a taker that opens the valve on the drain wide in a tantrum, and let all the love drain away, while making major withdrawls from the taker's spouse? Harley came up with both theories - Lovebank/EN and Giver/Taker.

I believe the thing he hasn't stressed enough in his writings is a last requirement of successful marriage relationships - maturity, defined by Stephen Covey as courage and character. Something I would love to see happening in a lot of relationships here. With maturity, I don't go around threatening divorce and life-long harm to my children because my spouse doesn't meet my primary emotional needs.

Divorce should never be taken lightly. And I have rarely read on this board a situation that didn't warrant this drastic remedy. I think of Peachy, You, Cinderella, EXPButtercup, Hurrian Hoosier, HOTI, etc. where there is willful abuse of one kind or another. And then I look at Slap, and I just do not get it. Pam is not willfully abusing him. She's overwhelmed and he wants her to do more. That just is so wrong! So outrageous and unreasonable.

I'm sorry that Nduli and you can't see that. Slap can set Pam free of this bondage trap, but he will never be free from himself. I'm certain Pam will be just fine, once she gets through the anger and betrayal and grief that this relationship has been heaping on her for several years now.

That's true -- you said you "wouldn't want to have sex with" me. Given how you generally talk about sex, attractiveness, and your wife, that's basically interchangable with "unattractive" in your vocabulary.


ROFL! You're such a liar. Do you pull this kind of stuff on your wife? No wonder there's so much friction in your marriage.


Yeah, you were in a bad temper because you didn't like something I said. So on a different thread on a different topic you threw a completely irrelevant snit about "well *I* wouldn't want to have sex with you" -- like anyone cares.
Then on another thread you expounded on how your not wanting to have sex with me was intended as an "insult" that was supposed to be hurtful.


Well obvously you care when you're mad and you think you might score a hit by making supposedly "insulting" cracks.

So for those who are interested, this probably serves as an example of what Pam has to deal with everyday -- cracks made with a deliberate intention to wound, which are conveniently "forgotten" later, and if brought up again get countered by silly lies to distract and derail.

Nope, can't imagine where tension in the marriage might be coming from.

I find the concept that Slapnuts needs to work a loving Pam a prescription that’s easy to give but really more complicated than at first blush. I've been fascinated at the story of ILMF over on the EN board who has a wife that, by his own admission, was almost completely unappealing in behavior towards him, attitude and physical presence and yet he has forced himself, through all manner of mental gymnastics, to love her. Granted, all relationships take work, but his seemed a case of martyrdom if I've ever seen it. I guess one could find a random person on the street and do the same if love is just a choice. I struggled with this concept as I fell out of love with my wife and tried to force myself to retain feelings for her. And I saw my brother live a ILMF-like existance with his cruel and unloveable wife for years out of religious conviction.

That is why I find that Harley's principles resonate with me - both partners have to create the environment to foster loving feelings, and it has to be making an effort the other finds important. Before I learned of his concepts, I couldn't articulate an answer to why I should be able to love unconditionally, even if my expectations were considered unimportant and unreasonable. Perhaps Slapnuts never tried to love Pam but has led a totally selfish existance, but I doubt it. We all look out for the self first (how many look to get marry for an opportunity of martyrdom?) and all have boundaries that once crossed are hard to return to. I have thought - What would I do if my spouse was in a serious accident and I had to care for her for years? I think I could but I don't think I could ever judge another person in that position. What led me out of love was a long series of choices my ex made and it sounds to me like Slap is saying the same thing.

There are lots of physically attractive people I wouldn't want to have sex with.


Am I?

This quote:

was taken from here.

So though I wish you good luck fending off all the strangers wanting to have sex with you, I really don't care about how you look.

I just don't care much for being called a liar.

Thank you for proving my point very nicely. Nowhere did I say what you claimed I did: "you said something about having all kinds of men wanting sex with you because you're so good looking."


Then quit lying.

Ironically, on my very first thread, in June of 2001, someone mentioned that I should read ILMF's posts. I did and said even then that I didn't think I could do what he has done.

Beyond forcing himself to stay in that position, he found a way to be happy despite all that was stacked against him. He is infinitely more patient than I am.


Thanks.

I don't think it is fair that people say that I have never tried. In fact, the fact that I have tried as hard as I have gave people the idea that we were going to make it.

Now that I don't want to try anymore, people are upset make the decision that I haven't tried based on either ignorance or a revisionist view of my posts.

Despite what people here think, I have tried. I really, honestly have.

I wasn't lying. I didn't remember the exact context of the quote because...(Now I will use Bush-speak) read my lips...I don't care !!!

And here we have another example of what Pam has to deal with all the time -- not just the silly lies, but when confronted on the lying, exuses of "but I wasn't lying and I don't care <with implied: so shut up already!>" instead of "oh my gosh, you're right, you never said any such thing -- I'm sorry I accused you of something you would never do. You even provided me with the link to the conversation I was referring to, and when I wanted to refer to what you said, instead of extending the trivial effort to click that link and scroll up and read what you said, I chose to simply make something up."

Thanks.

Anyway, I'm off on my trip soon. I'll check back here when I get home.

Thanks to all of you who offered advice.

First post here....been following Slappy's story for quite some time.

Slap has asked for some advice as to how to begin healthy seperation proceedings. From what I can tell, he's been receiving very little advice and a WHOLE lot of insults. Is that how things work around here? He's suggesting something that you don't agree with, so he's called ugly, fat, selfish, stupid, egotistical.....??

Just curious as to what purpose that serves.

Slappy, if you feel that you have tried your best to keep your marriage work and have received nothing back over the last four years, then perhaps it is time to figure out what's best for you and your family. However, if you feel there is even an OUNCE of love there - for God's sake - WORK ON IT!!

From what I've read, you feel as though there is nothing left. Ok then.

There are some very healthy alternatives when seperating your family. It IS possible to live under one roof while co-parenting your children, but BOTH of you must sit down and come to an agreement. It is only possible through honest communication, and A LOT of it at that. Things like schedules, money, sleeping arrangements, cooking, free time, your mother(!!!), cleaning, laundry, etc. etc. need to be discussed, with reasonable and fair decisions made.

I think it's probably healthier for the children to have parents consistantly co-parenting rather than parents who are consistantly arguing. Call me crazy...

Best of luck to you Slappy and Pam. It's unfortunate that this had to happen to your family, but if you keep a cool head and keep your priorities straight, there are ways to deal with this in a manner that works for everyone, especially the children.

Capital_Idea

Capital Idea, A very good first post. ... If it is indeed a first and you aren't just using an psuedonym. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Slapnuts, have a great trip.

For the others, it is never an easy decision to divorce. Sometimes it seems obvious that someone should divorce... perisistent infidelity, or abuse, or gambling or drug addiction.

Quite a few of you have said that Slap won't find happiness if he divorces because the trouble is with him not the marriage. You may be right or you may be wrong.

For me, and some others I know, divorce wasn't about happiness. It was about the less of two evils. Truly, many of us find ourselves half hoping for a call in the middle of hte night to say there'd been an accident, and could we come and identify the body. Some of us became suicidal and had to be on ADs. When it gets to that point, it's not about who's tried and who hasn't. If you haven't been there, you certainly can't know. Faced with a murder or hoping for the spouse's death, suicide, or a half-life on ADs, we chose divorce. Was it selfish? Sure, it was selfish in the same way survival is selfish.

Please, please, show some understanding and mercy to those who get to this point. There doesn't have to be a perpetrator and a victim in divorce. Sometimes, it is just two people who can't be one.

From Capital Idea: From what I can tell, he's been receiving very little advice and a WHOLE lot of insults.

Well, live by the sword, die by the sword. He's dished his own. I try not to use insults because that's my preference. But I can't say he hasn't "earned" his own.

From Green Gables: Sometimes it seems obvious that someone should divorce... perisistent infidelity, or abuse, or gambling or drug addiction.


And is this what's happening in Slap's marriage?

Well, for us to advise him to do what he's going to do, in general we'd need to be behind him. I can advise on some things once he's in the thick of his idea of in-house separation (trying to be helpful), but right now, I'd rather try to talk him out of it. There's my motive.

I don't think he's done enough, for long enough, steadily enough that *I* would be comfortable with MYself going into a separation with intent to divorce.

And if someone that is not in an abusive situation is hoping for a spouse's death, then the spouse deserves better, and the spouse wanting the other to die needs to get a grip on reality. (Can't say I haven't had the same thoughts, honestly, but really, it's a bad way to think, and I don't think a person in that state of mind can truly make a decision about marriage or divorce. They need to get help for their mental state first.)

About ILMF, I agree he has played the martyr. Recognizing boundaries and possibly making respectful requests may well be pulling him out of his plight. I don't know for sure since he hasn't updated. But I see a man who is deeply committed, and I appreciate that.

I think Slap and Pam are looking at their marriage through similar eyes. As far as her weight issues, I think she blames her situation for some of it, and Slap blames his marriage for his unhappiness. I think both are wrong. They need to BOTH recognize where their responsibilities lie, and take them up with or without the other. They can both either be happy while married, or lose weight while unhappy, but I agree that it's loads more work in an unsupportive environment.

~ZP