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#1383814 05/17/05 10:54 AM
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Hi guys...sorry this is somewhat OT. It is what I am and gives some understanding of me and why I chose to have an A. Have you figured out some of your "whys?"

I am having an enormous struggle and so I thought I'd burden you with my burden. Hey you can't make me sleep in the spare bedroom <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Quote
The following are some of the characteristics, agreed upon
by one Alanon-Acoa group, that result in problems in our lives.

a. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures;

If you could only see me right now and those that I am trying to avoid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

b. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process;

I crave positive feedback. Most times I can get it through my writing and " in person" with my one liners...but just who in the H*** am I?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

c. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism;

quiver quiver
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs;

B I N G O how about an A?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
e. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relations;

I am sorry I missed the voyages of the Titanic and the Challenger
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

f. We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This enables us not to look too closely at our faults, etc.

Faults? Moi!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
g. We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others;

Slap me beat me make me write bad checks
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h. We became addicted to excitement;

OMG
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i. We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can "pity" and "rescue";

Underneath my shirt is a superman costume...I was going to "rescue" OW
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

j. We have stuffed our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much; (DENIAL)

Feelings? I don't need no stinking feelings
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

After all who better to judge than me? and why feel good about me it just makes you "self centered?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

l. We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us;

Of course that is any relationship...Do you see why it so difficult for some to break it off with the OP? But I was so happy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

m. Alcoholism is a family disease and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of that disease even though we did not pick up
the drink;

I am better at being a drunk than Foster Brooks or Dean Martin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
n. Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.


I don't know ...I thought I put on a pretty good act
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • we wonder what normal is,
    we lie when it is just as convenient to tell the truth and we take on responsibilities that are not ours to take...got any jobs you want to give me?


It is just that I feel like I am trapped in the snow being pushed in front of a snow plow (great image for someone who lives in OC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) and the "snow" is the above list. I struggle with getting into the "drivers seat" and pushing "the mess" off to the side of the road.
H


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Hiker #1383815 05/17/05 02:18 PM
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Quote
we wonder what normal is,
we lie when it is just as convenient to tell the truth and we take on responsibilities that are not ours to take...got any jobs you want to give me?
Ouch, Hike that WAS me. Not any more though!


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
Hiker #1383816 05/17/05 02:26 PM
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k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

After all who better to judge than me? and why feel good about me it just makes you "self centered?"



d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs;

B I N G O how about an A?

Those were my answers too.


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
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Thanks for your replies...I just keep seeing me over and over again in that list...Today I am feeling overwhelmed.
H


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Hiker #1383818 05/17/05 04:58 PM
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{{Hiker}}


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
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Hike,

I guess I need some clarification. You are struggling with all of the above, right? I kept looking for that one answer that would solve all the issues that I had. Unfortunately it's not just one answer but lots and lots of little answers that make up the big answer. I wish it were more clear cut but it's not.

Are you in therapy at all? I know that therapy has really helped me find some of my answers. It has definitely helped me to understand my behavior before, during and even after the A.


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
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Hi Hiker,

Seems obvious to me that a round with an Alanon-Acoa group might be needed (it's their list, right?). Cant hurt... might help?

Or a (another?) stint with an IC, with theses specific issues in mind? I think I remember you saying you did some IC at some point; this may be a good time to go into IC with a refocused goal... a list of things you'd like to accomplish? I mean, that's what IC's are for, arent they?

I do wish you peace... you seem to really want to improve your life. I hope you get to do that - Dru

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Dru

It is wierd how I know the answers but I don't know them. Yes I have been in IC and currently the Dr said call if "things get bad." In the fall the meds quit working and so I had to try a new batch an so my "head" did get better. Now I keep waiting to see if I'll improve...I start to swing up and then I talk to my mother...Did I mention mommie?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I am under a lot of pressure at work right now and it is taking its toll on me. I keep thinking just hang in there and it will improve. I was having an especially dark moment this AM and when things go south I start reviewing my list. Reviewing actually helps me to understand what I need to do and helps me to get focused.

In addition to to IC I have been to AL-ANON (I think they have been the most helpful) ACA and AA meetings.

What Dr has helped me with is to understand my emotions and to realize that I there are more than one or two and depression isn't one of them. You guys know how it is sometimes...one step forward and two back

Thanks for your replies....Thanks Faithful
H


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Hiker #1383822 05/18/05 04:27 PM
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Hi Hiker,
So you are currently in IC, but the Al-Anon was in the past? Could you supplement the IC by adding some Al-Anon classes? Kinda as an extra boost while under this extra work stress?

I sure understand... sometimes you think you're just holding on, then something Extra comes along. great. just-what-i-needed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad to hear that you are hanging in there, reviewing your list, or whatever you need to do to get through the rough times.

Mommie? Come on! There's got to be something better to dwell on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I know mine certainly doesnt deserve any of my brain-time.

Hang tuff - Dru

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Hi again and thanks Dru for your reply

Sometimes I work and work and forget why I am working or what am I trying to improve. I get distracted by issues that shouldn't get so much attention and forget about those that need more attention.

I am here to remain focused on our M and our relationship. After such a long period you would think that the "addiction" would not have any power but I feel that it is "out there" and it would be easy to "fall off the wagon."

I don't feel weak but I didn't feel weak before.
I see Dr about every three months or sooner if I feel that I am "out of control". I check in on the phone and explain how I am feeling and he asks how I am handleing it. I do feel strong enough to get through the rough times but as I look back in its wake I feel I could have done a better job.

I guess I get frustrated because I think didn't I fix that already? I look at "the list" (post #1) and I wonder why that BS is still with me. Won't it ever be gone? "Out, Out damned spot", Lady Macbeth.

...I really need to take a hike and I am making plans to do so

This time of the year is a downer for me like the Holidays are downers for others...It's "My time of the month". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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Hiker #1383824 05/19/05 10:35 AM
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Hiker

Dude, anytime you need a loving slap of reality ... YOU can call on me coz I think you are worth it!

I only 2X4 those I think have the potential for actually doing something positive with the resulting pain ... and YOU are doing something positive.

Living life based on fears of abandonment is an emotional train wreck waiting to happen.

No more self-inflicted terrorism allowed. OK?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Pepperband; 05/19/05 10:36 AM.
Hiker #1383825 05/19/05 10:38 AM
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I am here to remain focused on our M and our relationship. After such a long period you would think that the "addiction" would not have any power but I feel that it is "out there" and it would be easy to "fall off the wagon."


Yes, been there, know all about that and wonder if it would happen again. Hiker, how long has it been since your d-day? I can honestly say that it does get better, but I think you have to make it better, it doesn't just happen. When I was going through withdrawals and even after that I would catch my mind drifting towards my OM. When that happened I would tell myself "No" and shake myself out of it. Sometimes I would have to yell "NO!" and sometimes, when I was tired, I gave in. I know, my bad... But at the time I did what I had to do to stay sane. Problem was with that though is that it alleviated temporarily but then came back, usually worse. I guess that's all part of the addiction

I wonder if that list that you made is causing you some anxiety or unnecessary pressure? Maybe you need to take it one step at a time instead of taking on the whole list? What do you think?

BTW, where are you planning on going hiking??


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 953
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Quote
I wonder if that list that you made is causing you some anxiety or unnecessary pressure? Maybe you need to take it one step at a time instead of taking on the whole list? What do you think?

BTW, where are you planning on going hiking??

You have something here I usually take on much more than what I can handle.

Hiking Plans

The John Muir Trail (again)*
High Sierra Trail*
The Narrows (Zion)again*
Subway (Zion)again*
Mt Albert in Colorado
Shasta*
Rainer (again)
Baker
Pico De Orizaba (Mexico)
Acongaqua(Argentina)
NimjaHamal (Nepal)
Buhtan (trekking)

Some of these are my dreams others I will actually do, or hope to do this summer(*)


ME WS
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Pep

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Living life based on fears of abandonment is an emotional train wreck waiting to happen

And it keeps happening...How do I get off the train?

It is funny(?)How in practcally every relationship I have had I hold on so tight I strangle the OP. In the end it is so hard to let go.

Please keep the 2x4's above the belt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
H


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Holding on too tight, huh?

What's the objective when you get in a relationship?

If you're objective is to be a blessing to the other person, you kind of can't hold on too tight. Smother maybe, but that is different.

Did you see my servant's heart thread? (Here)

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NCW is correct.

If the sole purpose of having someone else in your life is to serve your own needs , then you will hold on too tight. Desperately in fact.

What if you simply want to experience the joy of their company/companionship?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pep and NCW

Interesting insights. As I examen my "reasons for loving" I feel compelled to love others for who they are and not to satisfy my own needs. The joy of their presence and the excitment of their nature is what makes me feel complete. We all have negative characteristics and the love we have should overcome those shortcomings therefore acceptance.

My fear of "abandonment" is not for what the other person can "do for me" but for the possible loss of that relationship even when seperation is best for myself and the OP. There is a "loyalty piece" that I didn't include in my list of "characteristics." That characteristic is that ACOA's are loyal even when the situation does't warrant loyalty or no longer requires that loyalty. I am sure that there is a level of selfishness that exsists within me but it is that desire to be loyal that becomes a stumbeling block for me.

This sense of loyalty made it very difficult, nearly impossible to reveal details of the A and the identity of the OW. When I realized that this loyalty was misplaced and the one who most deserved my loyalty was Mrs Hiker I shared the information W needed including the ID of OW.

Breaking that loyalty left me with the reality that the relationship with OW would be gone forever. Of course this was back in the "fog" but the emotion of it was none the less real.

Real "intimate" relationships have always been difficult for me;those relationships where I was able to gain a sense of trust and accptance. I haven't been able to develop very many of those and so when they ended for what ever the reason I mourned their loss and have a most difficult time "leting go."

I know that there are many "weeds growing in my garden." But sometimes they are "green" and even have "blooms" that confuse me. I know that is when I need a good gardner or neighbor who make me aware of the junk that needs to be removed.
H


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Hiker #1383831 05/20/05 11:05 AM
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It is funny(?)How in practcally every relationship I have had I hold on so tight I strangle the OP. In the end it is so hard to let go.

I donno Hiker dear

the above description does not sound like loyalty to me

ACOA often might have boundaries problems beyond the norm ...

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pepper

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12. Adult children of alcoholics are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved


This comes from Janet Woititz

http://www.drjan.com/13char.html

Are you saying I have missed the mark? We worked on these in IC and how they have affected my lifes. I don't doubt that I have boundry issues. It would be nice if all this stuff was clear cut and removeable. Please tell me more
H

Last edited by Hiker; 05/20/05 01:55 PM.

ME WS
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Hiker,

First, I saw your wishlist somewhere and I am jealous.

Quote
The joy of their presence and the excitment of their nature is what makes me feel complete.

Given what we are after is self-examination, reconsider what you typed. And make SURE you meant this.

In simpler terms, you have said "My partner's happiness is what makes me happy."

That ALMOST means the next logical step is that their sadness makes you sad.

The behavioral goldeen fleece IMHO is "Giving unconditionally makes me happy."

Where does Hiker stand? And he doesn't have to agree with NCWalker. We're baselining here, seeing what makes each other tick and hopefully BOTH coming out better on the flip-side.

Quote
not for what the other person can "do for me" but for the possible loss of that relationship

But see my golden fleece above. If you were in it only for the giving and it goes, you are not losing anything. The fact that the loss of the relationship is a loss, REQUIRES that you were getting something. What they "did for you."

Now that is not necessarily bad. Answer this first, do your relationships fulfill your needs or wants?

(And NCWalker DOES struggle with the definition of emotional needs - are they really needs, or wants? Someone (perhaps JL, or TMCM, summed it up well, not needs for survival, needs for a strong relationship)).

Point is Hiker, you need to take a long look at them. It is OK to be "getting something" but it should be a blessing kind of a thing, not a sustaining kind of a thing. Only then will it be healthy (meaning NOT co-dependent).

Spend some time learning to meet these NEEDS on your own steam. John Bradshaw's "Championing the Inner Child" is a marvelous series - books, lectures, pick your format.

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This sense of loyalty made it very difficult, nearly impossible to reveal details of the A and the identity of the OW. When I realized that this loyalty was misplaced and the one who most deserved my loyalty was Mrs Hiker I shared the information W needed including the ID of OW.

I understand this sentiment fully, and I don't disagree as a matter of course. But in the vein of self-examination, I'm going to make a strong statement. (Once, I heard that when we are getting angry, God is trying to talk to us. I find that to be sometimes true.)

Farther above you stated that it is not because you are getting anything. But the loyalty professed (and you realized it's impropriety, a good thing) was to the one you thought was giving the most. Either that, or you were in the affair for self-abusive reasons. This is kind of contradictory logic.

Hiker, I really don't mean to incense you. My SENSE from the tone of the post is that you are about to put your finger on something VERY important in the definition of who Hiker is. But haven't fleshed it out, or completed the framework. I'm throwing a few stones. More to see what falls and what stands. For what stands will be the truth.

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Breaking that loyalty left me with the reality that the relationship with OW would be gone forever. Of course this was back in the "fog" but the emotion of it was none the less real.

HEALTHY HEALTHY HEALTHY. You see that you are NOT what you feel, but what you do. Doesn't mean you don't feel, only means you are not defined by your feelings. Only urged by them.

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Real "intimate" relationships have always been difficult for me;those relationships where I was able to gain a sense of trust and accptance.

Nothing insightful from me here. I can only state the obvious. If the "House of Hiker" is on a firm foundation, it can better withstand the relationship with Mrs. Hiker.

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I know that there are many "weeds growing in my garden." But sometimes they are "green" and even have "blooms" that confuse me. I know that is when I need a good gardner or neighbor who make me aware of the junk that needs to be removed.

I absolutely LOVED that Hiker. That is like cool on MANY levels. Rom 8:28, for one. Yeah, God can make a weed beautiful. Or you can find the joy in any circumstance. Or even the adulteress in the Bible could be redeemed.

But the confusion part - try this on for size. Sometimes the devil will give you something GOOD to keep you from the BEST. We all need to tend each others gardens, and give each other a fresh perspective. Keeps us honest. Keeps us healthy.

You are on the verge of something good. A big revelation. I can feel it. Keep fighting and keep looking at yourself.

NCW

I re-read this and am not happy with it. I'm going to post it anyway. You keep posting the "Theory of Hiker" and we'll keep asking questions. And when the dust settles, something good will be there. We're not there yet. I can't remember, are you in IC? Something needs to be dislodged. Not sure what. Not making sense anyway.

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