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#1383814 05/17/05 10:54 AM
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Hi guys...sorry this is somewhat OT. It is what I am and gives some understanding of me and why I chose to have an A. Have you figured out some of your "whys?"

I am having an enormous struggle and so I thought I'd burden you with my burden. Hey you can't make me sleep in the spare bedroom <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Quote
The following are some of the characteristics, agreed upon
by one Alanon-Acoa group, that result in problems in our lives.

a. We became isolated and afraid of people and authority figures;

If you could only see me right now and those that I am trying to avoid.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

b. We became approval seekers and lost our identity in the process;

I crave positive feedback. Most times I can get it through my writing and " in person" with my one liners...but just who in the H*** am I?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

c. We are frightened by angry people and any personal criticism;

quiver quiver
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs;

B I N G O how about an A?
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e. We live life from the viewpoint of victims and are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relations;

I am sorry I missed the voyages of the Titanic and the Challenger
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f. We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves. This enables us not to look too closely at our faults, etc.

Faults? Moi!
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g. We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others;

Slap me beat me make me write bad checks
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h. We became addicted to excitement;

OMG
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i. We confuse love and pity and tend to "love" people we can "pity" and "rescue";

Underneath my shirt is a superman costume...I was going to "rescue" OW
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j. We have stuffed our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much; (DENIAL)

Feelings? I don't need no stinking feelings
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k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

After all who better to judge than me? and why feel good about me it just makes you "self centered?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

l. We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us;

Of course that is any relationship...Do you see why it so difficult for some to break it off with the OP? But I was so happy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

m. Alcoholism is a family disease and we became para-alcoholics and took on the characteristics of that disease even though we did not pick up
the drink;

I am better at being a drunk than Foster Brooks or Dean Martin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
n. Para-alcoholics are reactors rather than actors.


I don't know ...I thought I put on a pretty good act
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • we wonder what normal is,
    we lie when it is just as convenient to tell the truth and we take on responsibilities that are not ours to take...got any jobs you want to give me?


It is just that I feel like I am trapped in the snow being pushed in front of a snow plow (great image for someone who lives in OC <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) and the "snow" is the above list. I struggle with getting into the "drivers seat" and pushing "the mess" off to the side of the road.
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Hiker #1383815 05/17/05 02:18 PM
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we wonder what normal is,
we lie when it is just as convenient to tell the truth and we take on responsibilities that are not ours to take...got any jobs you want to give me?
Ouch, Hike that WAS me. Not any more though!


Faith

me: FWW/BS 52 H: FWH/BS 49
DS 30
DD 21
DS 15
OCDS 8
Hiker #1383816 05/17/05 02:26 PM
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k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

After all who better to judge than me? and why feel good about me it just makes you "self centered?"



d. We either become alcoholics, marry them, or both, or find another compulsive personality such as a workaholic to fulfill our sick abandonment needs;

B I N G O how about an A?

Those were my answers too.


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
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Thanks for your replies...I just keep seeing me over and over again in that list...Today I am feeling overwhelmed.
H


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Hiker #1383818 05/17/05 04:58 PM
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{{Hiker}}


Faith

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Hike,

I guess I need some clarification. You are struggling with all of the above, right? I kept looking for that one answer that would solve all the issues that I had. Unfortunately it's not just one answer but lots and lots of little answers that make up the big answer. I wish it were more clear cut but it's not.

Are you in therapy at all? I know that therapy has really helped me find some of my answers. It has definitely helped me to understand my behavior before, during and even after the A.


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
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Hi Hiker,

Seems obvious to me that a round with an Alanon-Acoa group might be needed (it's their list, right?). Cant hurt... might help?

Or a (another?) stint with an IC, with theses specific issues in mind? I think I remember you saying you did some IC at some point; this may be a good time to go into IC with a refocused goal... a list of things you'd like to accomplish? I mean, that's what IC's are for, arent they?

I do wish you peace... you seem to really want to improve your life. I hope you get to do that - Dru

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Dru

It is wierd how I know the answers but I don't know them. Yes I have been in IC and currently the Dr said call if "things get bad." In the fall the meds quit working and so I had to try a new batch an so my "head" did get better. Now I keep waiting to see if I'll improve...I start to swing up and then I talk to my mother...Did I mention mommie?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I am under a lot of pressure at work right now and it is taking its toll on me. I keep thinking just hang in there and it will improve. I was having an especially dark moment this AM and when things go south I start reviewing my list. Reviewing actually helps me to understand what I need to do and helps me to get focused.

In addition to to IC I have been to AL-ANON (I think they have been the most helpful) ACA and AA meetings.

What Dr has helped me with is to understand my emotions and to realize that I there are more than one or two and depression isn't one of them. You guys know how it is sometimes...one step forward and two back

Thanks for your replies....Thanks Faithful
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Hi Hiker,
So you are currently in IC, but the Al-Anon was in the past? Could you supplement the IC by adding some Al-Anon classes? Kinda as an extra boost while under this extra work stress?

I sure understand... sometimes you think you're just holding on, then something Extra comes along. great. just-what-i-needed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I'm glad to hear that you are hanging in there, reviewing your list, or whatever you need to do to get through the rough times.

Mommie? Come on! There's got to be something better to dwell on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I know mine certainly doesnt deserve any of my brain-time.

Hang tuff - Dru

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Hi again and thanks Dru for your reply

Sometimes I work and work and forget why I am working or what am I trying to improve. I get distracted by issues that shouldn't get so much attention and forget about those that need more attention.

I am here to remain focused on our M and our relationship. After such a long period you would think that the "addiction" would not have any power but I feel that it is "out there" and it would be easy to "fall off the wagon."

I don't feel weak but I didn't feel weak before.
I see Dr about every three months or sooner if I feel that I am "out of control". I check in on the phone and explain how I am feeling and he asks how I am handleing it. I do feel strong enough to get through the rough times but as I look back in its wake I feel I could have done a better job.

I guess I get frustrated because I think didn't I fix that already? I look at "the list" (post #1) and I wonder why that BS is still with me. Won't it ever be gone? "Out, Out damned spot", Lady Macbeth.

...I really need to take a hike and I am making plans to do so

This time of the year is a downer for me like the Holidays are downers for others...It's "My time of the month". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
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Hiker

Dude, anytime you need a loving slap of reality ... YOU can call on me coz I think you are worth it!

I only 2X4 those I think have the potential for actually doing something positive with the resulting pain ... and YOU are doing something positive.

Living life based on fears of abandonment is an emotional train wreck waiting to happen.

No more self-inflicted terrorism allowed. OK?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Pepperband; 05/19/05 10:36 AM.
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I am here to remain focused on our M and our relationship. After such a long period you would think that the "addiction" would not have any power but I feel that it is "out there" and it would be easy to "fall off the wagon."


Yes, been there, know all about that and wonder if it would happen again. Hiker, how long has it been since your d-day? I can honestly say that it does get better, but I think you have to make it better, it doesn't just happen. When I was going through withdrawals and even after that I would catch my mind drifting towards my OM. When that happened I would tell myself "No" and shake myself out of it. Sometimes I would have to yell "NO!" and sometimes, when I was tired, I gave in. I know, my bad... But at the time I did what I had to do to stay sane. Problem was with that though is that it alleviated temporarily but then came back, usually worse. I guess that's all part of the addiction

I wonder if that list that you made is causing you some anxiety or unnecessary pressure? Maybe you need to take it one step at a time instead of taking on the whole list? What do you think?

BTW, where are you planning on going hiking??


FWW (me)34
BS 36
EA lasted 3 months
First D-Day: 3/7/04
Second D-Day with total truth: 4/13/04
NC established: 4/14/04
In recovery and doing wonderful!
The light shines through the darkenss; and the darkness can never extinguish it.
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Quote
I wonder if that list that you made is causing you some anxiety or unnecessary pressure? Maybe you need to take it one step at a time instead of taking on the whole list? What do you think?

BTW, where are you planning on going hiking??

You have something here I usually take on much more than what I can handle.

Hiking Plans

The John Muir Trail (again)*
High Sierra Trail*
The Narrows (Zion)again*
Subway (Zion)again*
Mt Albert in Colorado
Shasta*
Rainer (again)
Baker
Pico De Orizaba (Mexico)
Acongaqua(Argentina)
NimjaHamal (Nepal)
Buhtan (trekking)

Some of these are my dreams others I will actually do, or hope to do this summer(*)


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Living life based on fears of abandonment is an emotional train wreck waiting to happen

And it keeps happening...How do I get off the train?

It is funny(?)How in practcally every relationship I have had I hold on so tight I strangle the OP. In the end it is so hard to let go.

Please keep the 2x4's above the belt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
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Holding on too tight, huh?

What's the objective when you get in a relationship?

If you're objective is to be a blessing to the other person, you kind of can't hold on too tight. Smother maybe, but that is different.

Did you see my servant's heart thread? (Here)

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NCW is correct.

If the sole purpose of having someone else in your life is to serve your own needs , then you will hold on too tight. Desperately in fact.

What if you simply want to experience the joy of their company/companionship?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pep and NCW

Interesting insights. As I examen my "reasons for loving" I feel compelled to love others for who they are and not to satisfy my own needs. The joy of their presence and the excitment of their nature is what makes me feel complete. We all have negative characteristics and the love we have should overcome those shortcomings therefore acceptance.

My fear of "abandonment" is not for what the other person can "do for me" but for the possible loss of that relationship even when seperation is best for myself and the OP. There is a "loyalty piece" that I didn't include in my list of "characteristics." That characteristic is that ACOA's are loyal even when the situation does't warrant loyalty or no longer requires that loyalty. I am sure that there is a level of selfishness that exsists within me but it is that desire to be loyal that becomes a stumbeling block for me.

This sense of loyalty made it very difficult, nearly impossible to reveal details of the A and the identity of the OW. When I realized that this loyalty was misplaced and the one who most deserved my loyalty was Mrs Hiker I shared the information W needed including the ID of OW.

Breaking that loyalty left me with the reality that the relationship with OW would be gone forever. Of course this was back in the "fog" but the emotion of it was none the less real.

Real "intimate" relationships have always been difficult for me;those relationships where I was able to gain a sense of trust and accptance. I haven't been able to develop very many of those and so when they ended for what ever the reason I mourned their loss and have a most difficult time "leting go."

I know that there are many "weeds growing in my garden." But sometimes they are "green" and even have "blooms" that confuse me. I know that is when I need a good gardner or neighbor who make me aware of the junk that needs to be removed.
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It is funny(?)How in practcally every relationship I have had I hold on so tight I strangle the OP. In the end it is so hard to let go.

I donno Hiker dear

the above description does not sound like loyalty to me

ACOA often might have boundaries problems beyond the norm ...

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pepper

Quote
12. Adult children of alcoholics are extremely loyal, even in the face of evidence that the loyalty is undeserved


This comes from Janet Woititz

http://www.drjan.com/13char.html

Are you saying I have missed the mark? We worked on these in IC and how they have affected my lifes. I don't doubt that I have boundry issues. It would be nice if all this stuff was clear cut and removeable. Please tell me more
H

Last edited by Hiker; 05/20/05 01:55 PM.

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Hiker,

First, I saw your wishlist somewhere and I am jealous.

Quote
The joy of their presence and the excitment of their nature is what makes me feel complete.

Given what we are after is self-examination, reconsider what you typed. And make SURE you meant this.

In simpler terms, you have said "My partner's happiness is what makes me happy."

That ALMOST means the next logical step is that their sadness makes you sad.

The behavioral goldeen fleece IMHO is "Giving unconditionally makes me happy."

Where does Hiker stand? And he doesn't have to agree with NCWalker. We're baselining here, seeing what makes each other tick and hopefully BOTH coming out better on the flip-side.

Quote
not for what the other person can "do for me" but for the possible loss of that relationship

But see my golden fleece above. If you were in it only for the giving and it goes, you are not losing anything. The fact that the loss of the relationship is a loss, REQUIRES that you were getting something. What they "did for you."

Now that is not necessarily bad. Answer this first, do your relationships fulfill your needs or wants?

(And NCWalker DOES struggle with the definition of emotional needs - are they really needs, or wants? Someone (perhaps JL, or TMCM, summed it up well, not needs for survival, needs for a strong relationship)).

Point is Hiker, you need to take a long look at them. It is OK to be "getting something" but it should be a blessing kind of a thing, not a sustaining kind of a thing. Only then will it be healthy (meaning NOT co-dependent).

Spend some time learning to meet these NEEDS on your own steam. John Bradshaw's "Championing the Inner Child" is a marvelous series - books, lectures, pick your format.

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This sense of loyalty made it very difficult, nearly impossible to reveal details of the A and the identity of the OW. When I realized that this loyalty was misplaced and the one who most deserved my loyalty was Mrs Hiker I shared the information W needed including the ID of OW.

I understand this sentiment fully, and I don't disagree as a matter of course. But in the vein of self-examination, I'm going to make a strong statement. (Once, I heard that when we are getting angry, God is trying to talk to us. I find that to be sometimes true.)

Farther above you stated that it is not because you are getting anything. But the loyalty professed (and you realized it's impropriety, a good thing) was to the one you thought was giving the most. Either that, or you were in the affair for self-abusive reasons. This is kind of contradictory logic.

Hiker, I really don't mean to incense you. My SENSE from the tone of the post is that you are about to put your finger on something VERY important in the definition of who Hiker is. But haven't fleshed it out, or completed the framework. I'm throwing a few stones. More to see what falls and what stands. For what stands will be the truth.

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Breaking that loyalty left me with the reality that the relationship with OW would be gone forever. Of course this was back in the "fog" but the emotion of it was none the less real.

HEALTHY HEALTHY HEALTHY. You see that you are NOT what you feel, but what you do. Doesn't mean you don't feel, only means you are not defined by your feelings. Only urged by them.

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Real "intimate" relationships have always been difficult for me;those relationships where I was able to gain a sense of trust and accptance.

Nothing insightful from me here. I can only state the obvious. If the "House of Hiker" is on a firm foundation, it can better withstand the relationship with Mrs. Hiker.

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I know that there are many "weeds growing in my garden." But sometimes they are "green" and even have "blooms" that confuse me. I know that is when I need a good gardner or neighbor who make me aware of the junk that needs to be removed.

I absolutely LOVED that Hiker. That is like cool on MANY levels. Rom 8:28, for one. Yeah, God can make a weed beautiful. Or you can find the joy in any circumstance. Or even the adulteress in the Bible could be redeemed.

But the confusion part - try this on for size. Sometimes the devil will give you something GOOD to keep you from the BEST. We all need to tend each others gardens, and give each other a fresh perspective. Keeps us honest. Keeps us healthy.

You are on the verge of something good. A big revelation. I can feel it. Keep fighting and keep looking at yourself.

NCW

I re-read this and am not happy with it. I'm going to post it anyway. You keep posting the "Theory of Hiker" and we'll keep asking questions. And when the dust settles, something good will be there. We're not there yet. I can't remember, are you in IC? Something needs to be dislodged. Not sure what. Not making sense anyway.

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NC

You do realize that when you splain things to me I need lots of pictures <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Quote
In simpler terms, you have said "My partner's happiness is what makes me happy


Quote
their sadness makes you sad.

If I "give" coditionally then I do it unconsiously or I do it because I ain't perfect. I am getting better at it.


Isn't that true for everyone? I hurt when they hurt?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pep I do want to experience the joy of their companionship and I have. Those moments have been the sweetest times I know. I cannot ignore what has been built within me. Things constructed unintentionally but still apart of me.

I have tried burying them,ignoring them and pretending that they are not there...but they remain with me. I think I can be re-wired and have been re-wired but the old wireing remains.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps I am on the verge of some break through I just hope that I won't break down before that happens.

Isn't what we receive from our relationships part of our joy? Our desire to return what has been given to us is our gratitude for being so blest. I get far more than what I am able to give.

Of course these are "ideals" because I can sure shovel the BS too for my own gain. Didn't Paul say, ...I do what I hate and fail to do what is right?(forgive my paraphrase)

OK my head is starting to swell because of over use...I think I need to go soak it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
H

Last edited by Hiker; 05/20/05 04:17 PM.

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Now I'm chuckling. I do a poor job judging my audience. Except for Queen Jelly in Idiotville. Got her pegged.

Do you want more explanation or less? Can't tell if that was serious or sarcastic.

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NC

Sorry I was being a smart azzzz
H

"wish list"...you mean my "hiking list"? You mean you enjoy being miserable too?

Last edited by Hiker; 05/20/05 04:24 PM.

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Wow. Freaky.

No. Look at my post where I wasn't clear (just above). When I typed that, YOU'RE big post just above that only said.

NC

You do realize that when you splain things to me I need lots of pictures <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I mean, there was nothing else there. For a long time, like 45 minutes. Just that, haning in the breeze. So I was confused. And I posted and waited and waited. Then you posted that thing about just being a "smart azz". And it registered on the topic list. So I come back in the thread, and it's like WHOA. That whole post that confused me had a lot more stuff in it.

It has to be Jelly aka Justuss messing with me.

Seriously, I'm not offended. I can get long winded. If I am for your taste, lemme know and I'll tighten her up.

But I have to go now, and see my kids. I'll answer later.

I love being miserable. Always wanted to do the Andes on the solstice. Hear the sun sets like a light going off. Really cool sounding.

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pep I do want to experience the joy of their companionship and I have. Those moments have been the sweetest times I know. I cannot ignore what has been built within me. Things constructed unintentionally but still apart of me.

I have tried burying them,ignoring them and pretending that they are not there...but they remain with me. I think I can be re-wired and have been re-wired but the old wireing remains.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Where are you going with this?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Pep and NC

It seems the more I try to explain myself the deeper I get.

Pep I don't think I am going any where "with this."

I have been struggeling with being in a "pit". The source for this has been my work and not so much my relationships but when I "get down" I can't always pinpoint the reasons why I am so down I just know I am "there". I then start reexamening everything trying to figure out why I get in such a deep funk. I always go to two places...the A and my alcoholic home life. I forget that the Dr says my problem is biological and not relational. I panic because I don't want to stay down there even though it feels so much like "home". I start running around like "Chicken Little". Now I feel like I have been "crying wolf" and confusing you guys with my babble. Gawd maybe it's old age...do you think?

I think the meds just took a break and today I am feeling much better.

NC
Some of my "trips" I'll probably never do. Mrs Hiker isn't a hiker or a climber and it takes too much time to do the things on my list and spending time with her is more important then bagging some peak. But I can still dream...
Orizaba is the sixth highest mountain in the Western hemisphere at 5600 meters (18,500 ft).
Acongaqua is almost 7,000 meters and the highest mountain outside of the Himalayas. Both are fairly non-technical so they are do-able by an old guy like me. Mrs Hiker doesn't like being miserable and I seem to love rolling in it. My adventures need to stay close to home or be toned down so I can include my W. I have shut her out of too many things and so I look for things that I can include her...

Things that didn't work:
Down to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and back
wife= <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> me=<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A "short" walk to the top of Yosemeite Falls
wife= <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> me= <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

worked:

A drive to Colorado staying in hotels along the way,stayed at a hotel in Vail
wife = <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> me= <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So I have been thinking. Maybe she'd like shopping for something exotic in Santiago Chile, next to Acongacua, antiqueing in Katmando or perhaps a little Mexican get-away to Mexico City, closest airport to Orizaba. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


ME WS
Hiker #1383840 05/24/05 10:26 AM
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That characteristic is that ACOA's are loyal even when the situation does't warrant loyalty or no longer requires that loyalty.

This is truely interesting.

What if you made this slight shift in your mind.

Instead of remaining loyal to a unhealthy person in your life, you instead become loyal to a core principle you choose to support.

Would that work for you?

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pepper

I guess that is possible...but I really don't know for sure.

I think I have what most consider "core principles" in me. This knowledge along with the characteristics I have listed are "in" me like laundry in a washing machine(I guess). Someone else may have those answers. Sometimes I feel like the duckling that has just hatched and whomever or whatever I see first becomes my mommie aren't you glad I can't see you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Quack quack

Sorry for all the trite similes but I feel like a train that constantly derails and even though I know I am not on the track I keep plowing through whatever gets in my way. I eventually "get there" but there is a big mess behind me. Which brings me to characteristic #13:

Quote
13. Adult children of alcoholics are impulsive. They tend to lock themselves into a course of action without giving serious consideration to alternative behaviors or possible consequences. This impulsively leads to confusion, self-loathing and loss of control over their environment. In addition, they spend an excessive amount of energy cleaning up the mess.


No one has given be the undoing just the diagnosis.

I think I give serious consideration to "alternative behaviors" but obviously when it came to the A I ignored the consequences. At least at this point I feel A proof. I know that the impulsive behavior played a huge part of the A. There was not thought as to the consequences. I did not think, (who thought?) that there would be such a lasting impact on me emotionally, of course Mrs Hiker wasn't supposed to find out. silly me because I knew all of the above characteristics before the A...more confusion and self loathing. I do understand how I am wired so even though there is that part of me that yearns to "make it right" for OW("energy cleaning up he mess") or at least to see that all is OK "over there" I make no attempt to make contact or check up and see that all is well. I realize the consequences. It wouldn't be just end of our M but quite possibly the end of me. So to some degree I have been able to get past those things that entrap me.

Now you almost know as much about me as me
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ME WS
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Pep

In an earlier question were you focusing on:

Quote
I have tried burying them,ignoring them and pretending that they are not there...but they remain with me. I think I can be re-wired and have been re-wired but the old wireing remains.

I was too quick to answer. I guess I am saying I am not sure what to do or I think I am working towards a solution but I just can't see a possible solution.

and

Quote
What if you made this slight shift in your mind.

What mind? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
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Hiker #1383843 05/25/05 10:21 AM
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I confess ... I am a little lost here friend.

Maybe the first step is to define ONE goal. And make it a little one too. Take steps to get to that first goal. Then do the process again.

The "one bite at a time" method of elephant eating.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pep

Once again I have managed to confuse. I bet you are glad that you are not Mrs Hiker. No wonder she has this puzzeld look on her face when I leave in the morning and all I am saying is "goodbye".

OK one bite at a time...which end should I start on?

OK I'll take # 13 on first

OK I am thinking: baby steps baby steps
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words to live by .... courtesy of AA

progress
not
perfection

Pep<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

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Pep

I'll have it engraved on the refrigerator...my favorite piece of furniture
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ME WS
Hiker #1383847 05/26/05 10:15 AM
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Hiker....

"blaming makes everyone powerless"

are you confusing blame with accountability?

if you change the wording slightly like this:

accountability makes everyone powerless

I am just curious how feel about this when the words are changed around.

please consider, then respond

thanks

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Pepper

We usually know we are be held accountable. We know that there is something we will need to "remit" at the end of a task weather it is evidence or money.

When we blame we are holding someone responsible for an action that they have not "signed up for."

To blame is to disapprove, condem, and disparage. On the other hand accountable is to be expected to able to answer. It is akin to responsible. To blame is to try and designate someone as responsible when thet are not or they do not want to be responsible.

I tried
Hiker


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On the other hand accountable is to be expected to able to answer. It is akin to responsible.

actually, I like this response very much

do you think accountability is empowering?

Pep

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Pepper

I think that accountability can be empowering because the person on each side knows what is to be expected. There may be a danger that the one being held accountable may not be able to live up to the expectations and the person to whom the subject is accountable needs to have a clear understanding of human nature and the peramiters of the task.

Especially after an A the WS needs to realize that they need to be accountable to their BS. One of the goals of course is to rebuild the trust lost in the A. It takes pressure of each individual because the WS now has a valid excuse for turning the OP down should contact resume or as the old desires try to rebuild within the WS. This principle easy easier to write than to perform. If we were not emotional creatures the process would be much easier. If we had no memories of the past the challenge disipates. This is where the support must enter in order to secure the future for the couple.
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But Hiker ...

accountability to the self

expectations of the self

are THESE personally empowering TO YOU ???

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Pep

Ohhhh

To me. The accountability to self I 'll have to think about that. But my expectations...

k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

People are always telling me that I am too hard on me....
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Pep

Ohhhh

To me. The accountability to self I 'll have to think about that. But my expectations...

k. We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem;

People are always telling me that I am too hard on me....
H

can you work it out for yourself so that you feel EMPOWERED instead of dimished by the standards you hold yourself to?

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Pep

I am not sure. I don't think I know what empowered feels like. I think I would have to write it down some where and read it over and over to get it into my head.
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ME WS
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