[color:"blue"] I've noticed here and in "real life" the tendency of all of us (not just the guys), to attempt to fill in the free time we find ourselves having more of after we are single once again.

Maybe you've started working out at a gym, or are paying more attention to your yard, riding a motorcycle, or a bike, or have joined a league for a sport.

Let's say that you find someone to care for and the relationship is practically everything you dreamed of - in fact you've never had such compatibility with someone before in your life.

Would you continue with all of your activities that you had used to fill up your free time as a "single" person? Would you feel compelled to pare away some of these things and fill them with shared activities with your new SO? How would you feel if over time, you had less and less time to spend with your new SO because of the commitments you had made to these activities before you met SO? Do you feel that over time you would want to spend more time or less time with the new SO to maintain a relationship?

I think the easy answer might be that you would try to find someone that would share all of your interests, and the new SO would be right there beside you at the gym and on your bike and with your friends and joining your leagues. What would you do if the new SO had children and was unable to join you for all these activities. Would you be content seeing someone that you had developed a relationship with for over a year, maybe once or twice a week?

V. [/color]

I wouldn't see anything wrong with "scaling back" those activities to make time for the new SO.

But as for giving them up completely... as long as I liked the activities and they weren't incompatible with coupledom (like, e.g., going to singles events), I would NOT give them up.

After separation/divorce, a huge part of what we go through is a voyage of rediscovery -- re-learning who we are, what things we like, what new experiences we want to have, what old dislikes or fears we should overcome, what are our turnons and turnoffs, etc. There's a lot to be gained from continuing that once we're in relationships, because life is a journey and a process of continual change.

One of the worst mistakes I made in my marriage to WXW was to let go a lot of things that I used to like, whether because I knew she thought they were a waste of time or because I figured that there were more important things in my life now, like her. To my way of thinking back then, I was now part of "us", rather than an individual. I subsumed myself into my marriage and into couplehood. That was stupid, no doubt about it, but what the hell did I know... I was 24 and in love. I foolishly thought that, as long as there was love, everything else would take care of itself.

Biggest miscalculation of my life. When the revelations of WXW's serial cheating and massive betrayal came, I was naturally devastated. No surprise there. But when we split, for awhile my life felt largely empty. I had allowed myself to become defined by my marriage, and now that was gone. And I had to re-establish my life and my fundamental sense of myself.

It's an ongoing process, though a lot of work has been done. It wasn't easy. But the most important lesson I've learned is, NEVER sacrifice who you are for another person. NEVER give up on the things that make your life better, or happier, or more fun -- those things that you enjoy now and know that you would miss if they were gone from your life. Hang onto those. Because if your prospective partner can't accept those things, then perhaps they're the wrong person for you.

"Don't compromise yourself. You're all you've got."
-- Janis Joplin

RD:


I think that you might have to scale back if your life were so full that you only had say one night a week to devote to someone else. It's kind of like fitting the person in to your "spare time", rather than making that person more of a priority? I also thought (correct me if I'm mistaken), that there is a tendency to WANT to spend more and more time together as the relationship progresses. If time together is dwindling, is that a sign that there is a lack of interest or a lack of priorities? Meaning that the dwindling time together was attributed to working evenings on prior commitments and scheduling events that were social that meant there would be no private time.



I may be mistaken, but this almost sounds like you expect that you will need something to fall back on when the relationship fails?



I know how this feels - I tend to lose myself because I become more interested in pleasing my partner than in taking time to learn what it is I need to please myself. Once we know what we want, though, with someone willing to try to please us as well, shouldn't we be safe to give our all? Isn't that a goal to each look out for each other's interest in POJA so that neither of us take advantage of the other?



I agree and POJA is supposed to take care of that.



Again I agree.



I would agree on most fronts - I think both partners have to adjust and work together for a good fit. But i wouldn't settle for someone that is not willing to compromise on things. Wouldn't they be controlling and/or narcissistic if they couldn't - all me me me?

V.

Well, I'm not one of the guys, but thought I'd share since I've been thinking about this myself.

I need two kinds of activities in my life - one is fairly scheduled and predictable (this takes care of classes I want to take, meetings I attend on a regular basis, etc.) The other is unscheduled stuff - upcoming events that interest me, and other activities (like going to the gym, taking the dogs to the park, hobbies, books I want to read) that I could do pretty much anytime. And then there's laundry, paying bills, etc. that compete for my time too.

I limit how many things can be on the first list because otherwise I end up feeling too hassled and getting too burned out.

The second list is stuff that happens when I feel like it - and depends on how busy I've been and whether I feel like I need some down time.

This works well for me - if a friend calls and wants to do something, I can usually fit it in. If not, I have things to do by myself. And I can always call someone else to do things with if I feel like it.

This is my plan - I'd actually like to be spending more time doing things than I am - but still, this is my plan. Though it's not in my plan now, I could make time for someone if there was someone worth making time for!

[color:"blue"] DV,

My life is very similar to yours. Most of my scheduled events center around church, choir, or my children's weekly things. That still leaves 3 or 4 nights a week that are open to anything that pops up. I think there is room there for a special someone.

The situation I was thinking of and the questions I have concern men that I know that go to the gym daily. They are done at the gym 7 or 8 pm at night and then have other things happening later in the evening as well. Like wings with the guys every Wednesday, and pool league on Thursday, and choir practice on Monday, and "the club" with the gang on Friday, and friends over every Satuday to hang, and parents visit or are visited every Sunday.

A full schedule, right? So do you go along with being pencilled in for Tuesday night and "hang" with him and his friends and family all weekend? Or do you think, hmmm, this person is really busy, doesn't want to give any of their activities up, and there really doesn't seem to be room in his life for developing a relationship?

V.[/color]

you are either single or a couple, cannot be both...now depends if you are in early stages of dating vs married, but if your focus is on just doing what you want, and fitting someone else in, do both of you a favor and don't say you are looking for a relationship. There is a component of "self" when in a permanent couple relationship, but it is a very small component, most of your choices/activities/focus should be from a couple standpoint...if not, what is the point of being a couple? The reality is, one (if you are a safe/healthy partner) gives up (and willingly so) just about everything you did single, unless it becomes an enthusiastically shared activity with your partner. The reason for this is why would you want to conduct your life as a single if you supposedly prefer to live as a couple.

Hmmm - I'd say if he doesn't want to give anything up, he isn't committed enough (to you). Question is: is this temporary, or a symptom of a lifestyle he intends to keep?

As an aside, when I met H, his mother REQUIRED that all the kids and their extended families gather at her house on Sundays for brunch, and spend the whole day playing cards, etc. That should have been a red flag for me - as she got very angry when ONE time I wanted us to leave after the meal and go see my parents who had just returned from a trip to Europe. It was also impossible for us to do anything else on weekends alone. We spent years dealing with issues concerning his family, and he finally severed ties with them.

So, consider whether the family commitments that are every weekend are healthy or not, and if members are free to participate or not, as they choose. Is he free to choose you without big repercusions? (This may be OT... or not... you decide!)

I'm not a guy but I'd like to voice my opinion.

Yes, I would scale back some activities if I were super busy & had filled every waking moment with activities. If I want a SO in my life I'd need to make room for time alone together not just tack them on to what I do.

It would be great to share some activities which may end up replacing something else, for example, my time spent on the MB boards. I would expect the same consideration from the potential SO. Either I'm worth more of your time or I'm not. I do think with some people it may come to that kind of situation. For me I don't think it would get to that point because I would have seen they have too busy a life to make room for me & I would find that unatractive or an indication of where I stand in their lives.

Fortunately I don't fill my every moment with activities designed to keep me busy. Most of my friends are artsy types & tend to keep varying schedules so finding time to be with them usually ends up meaning we have to find some way to creatively manage our time.

I wouldn't expect my SO to sacrifice time with his children & I would expect the same from him, but if we were serious enough about each other I expect we would be blending those times a bit.

There are no rules & we each have to make our lives work for us & those we love.

DV,



[color:"blue"]
Um I would say that it is a lifestyle that he has maintained since he was a teen. In fact, he has admitted that his lifestyle has been the death of a couple of serious relationships. I pointed out to him recently that he continues to do the same thing - all he does is change partners. I dunno. I've aired my grievances and if that is as far as it goes then he will be history soon.

V. [/color]

[color:"blue"] Knight,[/color]


[color:"blue"]
I think that both people should be willing to compromise and that they should do this with POJA in mind so that both are happy with the compromise(s). If one person socializes, then perhaps the other would join those social activities to an extent. [/color]


[color:"blue"]
I agree - I think Harley terms it "Individual Behavior" - a lovebuster where one of the couple is always scheduling things that only benefit themself. I think there ought to be a distinction however between couple standpoint and alone time. It is possible to do things as a couple and still be essentially spending time independently. For instance, think of a party, where you both might circulate individually. It's pretty common at BBQs for the women to gather and talk while the men gather elsewhere... I wouldn't consider that "couple time" if it doesn't meet both of the couple's emotional needs.[/color]



[color:"blue"] Exactly. [/color]


[color:"blue"]
Where is the cut off? If you've been in an exclusive relationship for a year or two, is that enough time to say enough of this acting like a single dude? I agree this isn't a relationship unless the two lives begin to meld. Would there also be in your estimation, a drive to be together more and more? To miss the other person and feel the loss of their presence when you are away? Don't you think this drive should be strong enough to overcome any other guilt or obligation to friends?

V.[/color]

[color:"blue"]Nams,
[/color]

[color:"blue"] OK, so far I've heard a lot of women say that they would scale back - <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> [/color]



[color:"blue"] True - there comes a time when you have to put the boundary out there - either you are worth it or you are not worth it.[/color]



[color:"blue"] Ahhhh - but what about the old bait and hook? What if the person had much more time previously, then once they thought you were "hooked" then they started back into old habits. It might seem simplistic - black and white - but once an attachment is formed and the hook is set, then it awfully hard to start pulling at your own flesh to remove the barb.[/color]



[color:"blue"] This is happening more. Maybe some people take longer to warm up to a relationship. A year seems like a long time to me, and one of his best friends is getting married 1 1/2 years from the start of thier relationship. My guy is shocked that they are moving ahead so quickly... [/color]



[color:"blue"]I agree. One of the reasons I ask for other's opinions here is because I realize that my own experiences may be quite different from someone else's, and that I could easily be offended by something others consider commonplace. (Or what seems to be the case more often is that I accept what would horrify someone else)

V. [color:"blue"]

For me, it's about values.

Going in to my marriage, I asked myself whether developing a relationship with this girl was more important to me than all my own tentative dreams and goals. I thought I was smart because I could answer "Yes."

What can I say; I was young. I have since learned a lot more about myself and what is important to me.

Foremost are relationships. I am willing to sacrifice just about any of my activities, but not my relationships - although I acknowledge the need for a balance shift, since I would want my primary relationship (after God) to be with my prospective partner.

But that said, I won't marry again unless I also find a woman whose personal and spiritual values and goals are compatible and complementary with mine; next time around, I won't be satisfied with "merely" having a compatible and complementary personality and lifestyle and set of interests. I believe that God made each of us who we are in order to fulfill some purpose, and the right relationship for me is one in which we are able to help each other fulfill our God-given purposes in a God-ordained partnership.

Bottom line, if it's something I'm just doing for fun or "personal enrichment," it can go. Motorcycle, hobbies, classes, concerts, workshops, church activities, whatever. None of these things are in themselves important. But if there's an area where I believe I am supposed to be speaking into people's lives, we'd better be able to find some way to do that.

Gnome,

Well said! You have given me food for thought. Now I understand why I didn't/don't want to give up certain things that I believe are related to my inner purpose.

If he admits he has lost a couple of relationships due to his activities you need to know how important those relationsips were to him. If he says very important & he didn't know how to cut back perhaps it's workable with your help. Use the process of elimination. Don't put yourself in, just this activity as opposed that, which would he eliminate.

The cut off point comes when you feel yourself take a back seat to his personal activities & it bothers you. If you make it clear to him you require more of his time & that you are feeling like second best it's up to him to let you know he wants you enough to be with you more.

I agree with Gnome, personal enrichment goes to make room for a special person in your life.

Give Up?

What would I give up?

Truthfully nothing. I already did that once, won't do it again.

I am honest and upfront, I don't barhop, I don't visit boobie bars, I go to church, raise my kids and in general do what decent men are supposed to do. Clean the house, do the laundry, cook the meals, repair my vehicles, go to work...

What exactly am I supposed to give up?

Working out? Nope. Volunteer work? Nope. Coaching? Nope. Music? Nope.

Does that mean I want to live as a single man? No it does not but it does mean I have rediscovered myself and I really like this person, this person I used to be only wiser. Someone else will like that too, or they won't? I just remember how I got to the spot I was in 18 months ago and it started with giving up things I was interested in till there was nothing left but what SHE was interested in.

You all can discuss the merits of this back and forth all day long. I have the time to devote to another WITH my activities so why should I even consider giving up anything?

Why should you?

What exactly are we talking about giving up?

I don't know, I thought we had all lived the "giving up" lifestyle already? Where did that lead any of you?

If we are discussing whether you would coach little league 2 nights a week instead of 4-5, I'm with that but if we are talking about quitting coaching instead? Nope, not interested in that life. Are we talking about not riding motorcycles because our partner doesn't like them? Then Nope, not interested in that life either.

This isn't about POJA at all, this is about the kind of person you are or are growing into and you want to give it away?

How bout finding somebody that fits into the lives we are carving out for ourselves? There is a reason they make mens and ladies gloves, and that they come in 14 sizes for each sex.

The real question here is this, why would anyone try to pound a square peg into a round hole?

Here is something I would negotiate...my partner doesn't like a restaraunt I really like? Oh well, we'll go someplace else. Something I wouldn't negotiate, my partner doesn't like that I spend 45-60 minutes a day working out? Move along, that isn't changing.

So what are you all talking about "giving up"? What are you willing to give up for a relationship?

To say "everything" is a fools game. To say everything but God is still a recipe for disaster in my eyes.

Alright, I guess I'd give up "putt-putt" and maybe cotton candy...thats a big maybe.

RebornMan

Reborn, for me this discussion is more about how willing a person is to give time together to a SO. I wouldn't expect my SO (if I had one) to give things up unless we both felt we didn't have enough time together & it was more due to his schedule than mine. We would both want to spend more time together & find a way to make that happen.

If my SO has activities schedules 7 days a week & the only way we see each other is when I hang around after his game or go with him each Sun. for dinner at his Mom's house or when I ride with him on his way to bowling I'd have to conclude he doesn't care enough to make me a priority. That's fine, he may not want as committed a relationship as I do. But if I wanted more & he was unwilling to accomodate me I'd have to look else where. We'd probably both be better off.

If my SO felt we needed more time together & asked me to join in some activities that would be good to a point, but we'd still need time together, alone, & that's more about making room for someone you love not giving up until you are a shell.

I'm sure there's a happy medium but it just may take a bit of sacrifice from both people.

Nams,

I wasn't directing my comments to you in particular at all so I hope it wasn't taken the wrong way.

I was really just laying it out there as food for thought. I understand what you are saying about the time factor. I was really directing my comments towards people like SNL that say we should give up everything.

I just wonder if it is very healthy for anyone to consider wanting to either make drastic changes in themselves or expect it from a partner.

I mean, these are the things we are supposed to find out while we date someone isn't it? Whether we are compatible, whether we fit together, if our goals and dreams match up.

If they don't then no harm, no foul...you are only dating.

You can state your desires to a dating partner but to expect them to change to conform to your idea, or you to theirs is silly and unnecessary.

I just don't see the benefit in giving away any part of who I am anymore.

Like I said, this isn't directed at you personally nams.

Rebornman

Tough question ... again, one of the "girls" checking in with opinions.

I agree mostly with Rebornman, though. I gave up a LOT of things because of my marriage - in order to be sure I had time with my (now-ex)husband, I gave up singing, I gave up going out dancing with my friends... Was it DejaVu that talked about the family issues? I gave up time with my family because his family was somehow more important.

All while he gave up NOTHING. Not even his single ways, apparently, since the first time he cheated on me we were married maybe 3 years. He didn't wear his wedding band, except during the honeymoon, he didn't give up buying his toys, he didn't even want to give up his money to contribute to the household expenses... I didn't want him to give up his motorcycle because I didn't like it - I asked him to give it up because he wrecked it, nearly got killed and then wanted to spend money we didn't have to get a new one!

I will not go through that again. Compromise happens in both directions - it is not just a one way street. POJA means that I have to be just as enthusiastic as he does, and that means that he has to give as well as get.

I think that one of the serious mistakes that people make when they marry is that they take the "two become one" thing too literally, and some of us find ourselves simply becoming subsumed by the other person rather than the TWO becoming a single unit which is so much more and so much better than what we were all alone. The bad thing is when one becomes the other, or is lost in the other.

I don't think that it was ever intended that either party in a marriage should give up who they are for the marriage - what's the point of being a couple if only one person matters? That said, I do believe that there are compromises that can and should be made in committed, long-term relationships. If the 45-60 minutes each evening spent working out means that family time will be missed (i.e., get out of work around 5 pm, get to the gym around 6 pm, change, work out until about 7 pm, get home about 8 pm and miss dinner with the kids) then, perhaps an effort can be made to work out in the morning instead of at night...

If this guy is unwilling to make some alone time with you, he's not FOR you. His unwillingness to compromise at all for the relationship means that he cannot meet your needs. If he cannot meet your needs now, he never will be able to. It doesn't mean that he's a bad person, he is just not YOUR person. Based on what I remember you've posted about him in the past, I'd say he sounds like a TRUE commitment-phobe. Sounds as if he's aware that he's driving people away but still unwilling to make the necessary changes to make a relationship work. And that may mean he is going to be single forever.

T

I would hope with the right woman, I would NOT want to give up time with her.

One of the things that makes for a good marriage is being able to tell what is how important to who. And then working things out.

You are right Terri, there is compromise which is good, and then there is wholesale change which doesn't work.

Your analogy with the working out is exactly what I meant, will I give it up? No, but I am more than willing to do it in a way that has the least impact on my partner and family. Good points.

Nams, if the only "time" you are spending with this guy basically is you hanging around while he does his thing then???????? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You already know the answer to your question.

Good Luck

RebornMan