Osxgirl,

Well said - well said indeed! You have taken words out of my mouth, and I second what you have said.

I also might add that one of the least understood aspects of behavior is abuse. It can be SO subtle, so insidious, and seem SO normal in the hands of a skilled abuser. When it creeps up on you, it grows inductively (rather than deductively). If it was deductive, it would be like starting with the premise that there would be abuse - nobody would fall for that. But inductive reasoning works from specifics to generalities. And the generalization (that there is abuse) isn't obvious right away.

Initially, with inductive examples, there is no pattern. Then, when a pattern starts to surface (as a result of several little things), more little things can be introduced that alter the pattern and make it unrecognizable again. It takes quite a while before all the little things add up to a more recognizable bigger thing. And that assumes the pattern is understood to begin with.

This is why the danger signs need to be better understood - and why they aren't recognized or understood.

**It didn't work for me. Her idea of doing laundry is to stuff everything in the washer, then move it to the dryer, then take it out and throw it on the floor somewhere. When you need clothes, you go look in the "clean pile". When you take clothing off (or finish with a towel), you drop it where you are. (This goes for tissues, paper-towels, plastic wrappers and packaging also.) Thus, my child's clothing could be found in every room of the house - P.J.'s under the kitchen table, because WW changed DD's clothes there etc. I don't think any number of years of example would have taught her to pick up after herself.**

TR--Which is my point, she didn't learn it as a child, and for you to correct her as an adult, it makes your relationship w/ her Parent/Child...not husband/wife



**My daughter, on the other hand, is young enough to learn from example - and also I didn't feel any reluctance to tell her what to do. As a result, she has developed at least some habits of neatness. She used to fuss at WW to "put away the towel" (instead of leaving it on the bed or the floor).**

TR--And again, that is your role as her father, to teach her these things.

And it is constructive, because your still learning how to enforce YOUR boundaries, of what is acceptable to YOU in a relationship and what is not.

Ad,

**If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness. I could not talk to my wife about, for example, problems at work, because it undermined her sense of security. I had to pretend to be the captain of the unsinkable ship - while WW was busy drilling holes in the hull.**

TR--I'm sorry your wife is like that, I too have seen my husband cry, and he complains to me about things at work almost daily, and that's my role to listen and offer a supportive ear when he needs it. Just as it's his role to do the same for me when I need it.

I find comfort and security in the fact my husband trusts me in that way to open himself and allows himself to be vunerable to me in that way. It brings an emotional closeness I can't even begin to describe.



**The old fashioned ideas that a man never cries, and never admits weakness or failure - I think she thinks that a man should not have "feelings".**

TR--Okay, that is how my ex-h was, as was the man I dated before him, and well, I didn't have the same connection with them that I have now with my husband. Nor, did I feel safe with them (but thats a whole nutter story).

But just so you know, there are many women out there who desire to have that emotional connection in their marriage,
they wish their husbands would open up to them on that level
and I just think your wife is so skewed by life to know what she really needs to feel secure in a relationship.

I refute the premise of "project" people. Project people implies first off that I have some control over the human being in question. Since it's only throught the mother mystique that I can influence my children, I doubt I could exercise control over anyone else.

Project also conjures an image of a decrepet old house -- a fixer-upper. People are not inanimate objects that can be broken and repaired.

We are self-determined beings. We adjust and adapt. Sometimes, due to our environment we develop behaviors that don't serve us well as the years go by. Once those behaviors heave enough coals on our heads, we adapt and change them to new ones.

AD, you are not "broken." Exhausted and tired is more like it.

As to the whole male/female role thingy... it's such a muddle I can't make heads or tails of it. I know I don't like gushy men. Now that I think of it, I don't like women to gush either. I have seen my brother cry twice as a man, my husband a handful of times, but it didn't make me lose respect for them.

I did ask my STBX to stop telling me about his money problems. Those mostly consisted of having bought inventory and written a check on the expectation that some's payment to him would beat his check to someone else. Since STBX refused to stop writing checks when he had no money in the bank, I refused to hear about it.

AD -

Yes, I do understand what you are saying, but....

Believe it or not, I've never had a problem with boundaries. The example of the kitchen....well, I stopped after saying he pushed past like I wasn't there. Everytime he did that, I DID tell him that was unacceptable behavior. I told him the polite thing to do is to say excuse me or to ask me to hand him what he needs. He looked at me as if I were speaking a foreign language. Sometimes he even laughed at me when I said it. And the next time, it was as if I had said nothing at all.

While I do agree that some people do attract the same kinds of people over and over, there are also some people out there on whom none of the normal ways of handling inappropriate behavior work. I set firm boundaries, made it clear time after time after time when he was not respecting those boundaries. It didn't matter. And what it came down to was this: do I leave him because he's rude to me, and inconsiderate of me, when I have never believed in divorce and have always felt that infidelity or physical abuse are the only valid reasons for it? I had no experience with the kind of emotional abuse that I was dealing with - very passive agressive, very subtle. I'd be in tears and unable to say why even, and I've never had problems expressing myself.

And Deja - yes! I hadn't looked at it that way, but that's exactly it. Deductive reasoning can be much easier than inductive reasoning. You're right - I didn't have experience with this kind of abuse. Add to it that most everyone has these same kinds of stories, and instead of seeing a pattern of abuse, you start thinking something must be wrong with you.

Which brings me back to my point - part of the problem with abuse, especially subtle emotional abuse, is that the victim DOES feel like it's all their own fault. Well, not so much their fault as it is that you feel you must just not understand something correctly. That if you just understood things a little better, it would all make sense. Or even that maybe you really are going crazy. My XH did actively try to convince me of that - tried to make me think I was losing my memory. I tried setting boundaries there too, and it did no good. The only thing that worked in the long run was doing it back to him, and making sure he knew I was doing it on purpose because he had been doing it to me. The problem is - then I felt horrible for doing it to him. The only way to make him respect my boundaries was to enforce them by acting like he did, because it was the only thing he understood. And it was changing me into a person I didn't like very much.

I guess my point is - don't be so hard on yourself, or on others for not getting out of the abusive situation. Just be honest with yourself. Where you weren't setting boundaries, recognize it and correct it. But don't blame yourself for not being able to enforce boundaries in some cases. Going back to my kitchen example - what else could I have done? I made it clear how I expected to be treated, and he refused. I could have just left the kitchen - which would have had the opposite effect of what I intended. I would have been inconvenienced, and he would have had what he wanted, which was for me to get out of the kitchen whenever he wanted to do something in it, regardless of what I was doing. Short of getting physical or simply giving up and giving him what he wanted, what else could I have done?

Sorry for going on so much about this, but this has been a real tough issue for me. I was never exposed to this kind of behavior. We didn't act this way in my family. It really never occurred to me that someone would do this to another person just because he could. So I figured it must be something I did to make him want to treat me this way, and I tried to figure out what I was doing wrong. But the truth is, it wouldn't have mattered what I did, he would have treated me the same.

To me, giving up on the guy on the phone was a case of me having learned from my mistake. I wouldn't have just written him off for treating me that way once. Everyone has a bad day now and then. But I started recognizing the same sort of thing I saw in my XH. He had to win, and for him to win, that meant I had to lose. And no amount of boundaries I tried to set was going to make a difference.

Oh, and it isn't like I wrote this guy off anyway. After really being obnoxious to me, he said I should call him when the situation he was being obnoxious about changed. My boundary? He needed to calm down and realize he had been a real jerk and call me. He didn't. So I didn't bother calling him. And I'm now seeing someone who treats me great, with a lot of respect. And what have I changed about me so that I don't attract abusive types anymore? Near as I can tell, nothing other than recognizing an abusive personality sooner. And even with that, I wouldn't say I couldn't be fooled again. I just hope that I would recognize it quicker this time.

Well actually, W was under the thumb of a controlling mother - and did everything perfectly at home - but only because of constant control. So, out of that controlling environment, without her mother to force her to do things, she let things go. Also, growing up, she never had so many things - such a volume of clothing to manage. It was easier.

While "correcting" her might be wrong, asking my W to pick up her clothes would not neccesarily put me in the "parent" role - any more than asking a spouse to do (or not do) anything. Sticking to the formulaic wording, I could have said "I would like it if you would take better care of your and DD's clothes. Living in orderly house is important to me." The purists would require that I say "I feel <something> when <some condition>", but I don't know a word for what I feel about this - other than "bad".

None of this matters at present - but might in the future. I would like to have some relationship skills - just in case I have a relationship. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Osxgirl,


I'm with you on that. Same for me.


I never thought this. I knew she was out of line, not me. Not that I made no errors - or committed not offenses, but I was always sure that nothing I did could possibly deserve the treatment I recieved.


I think in my case, that was not true. Although these were her issues, I did have some influence. Eventually, I adapted, and whenever a physical abuse incident occured, I just left the house - right then - immediately. Usually, she would be calling me within the hour to appologise etc. One time, after she left me bleeding, I didn't call for 24 hours. She was extremely contrite - and begged me never to leave her wondering again. I should call, at least. Eventually, the physical incidents pretty much ended - or became so minor and infrequent that I forgot about them. I could have done more, if I had been willing to take a firm stand early in the marriage.


Congratulations. And, I sincerely hope you are are right.

The first time we were separated, I was really broken up about it - went to a MC (by myself except for one time). One of the things he told me was that I would have had trouble no matter who I married - and that he didn't see any of me (AD) in the marriage. It was all about her. I'm really worried that he was right - and that I would end up in a similar situation or worse.

-AD

GG,


OK. Refutation noted. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ever see the movie "Seabiscuit?" What did you think of it?

-AD

I saw the movie. I liked it. Horses and dogs may be projects. I'm a bit confused about the connection though.

Maybe my objection all boils down to semantics. Broken and project seems to really objectify people and negate the divine light, spirit, Holy Ghost, what have you, that is in each of us.

All that said, I must confess before my marriage, I thought my husband just needed some inspiration to turn his extremely messy, dirty disorganized shop into a beautiful inviting rare book shop.

GG,

Didn't you notice that the jockey was also a project?

He was a broken, beaten-down, rejected, abandoned young man.

C'mon. Don't tell me you missed that?

And the great depression was on - and there were a lot of people whe felt that way about themselves - so it all resonated with them.

But I very well understand your point about your H. It is a great pity that he did not entrust you with the transformation of his business and life. Maybe the key thing is an invitation to the work. Did your H ever say "I sure could use a woman's eye to help me make this shop a success?" (or something like that?)

-AD

Of course he never said anything close to that. He likes his way of doing things. Any it works well enough for him. He's satisfied. It was me projecting my desires onto him. My fault, I fear.

Forgive me if I once again split hairs. I have no problem with people feeling as if they are broken and worn down by life. I bet everyone feels that at some point. I do have a problem with describing others in such a way.

There's a big difference between "She feels as if she's been broken." and "She is broken." Just think about that nasty phrase "damaged goods." Wow. We are calling individuals merchandise that can be left on the shelf while we take down one that is just the same but not dented, bruised or scuffed.

Then, look at the word "baggage." As in he has got a lot of baggage. This could mean anything from he's had a lot of difficult experiences to the man is a danger to society.

As for the jockey,if he was a project, whose project was he? The owners'? The trainer's? The horse's? Or maybe Someone Else's?

Oh, what a thought! I'd buy project when it is defined as the Creator constantly shaping and refining us. Except when we little creations swat away the paint brush in his hand and get streaked and mess up instead of refined.

I'll have to ponder this.

GG,

I'm not arguing with your POV on this. I could easily take the same position as you have taken.

My situation is this:

My #1 EN is (in Harley's scheme), "Admiration". I actaully don't have to be admired, only affirmed, so... In the love languages model, my language is "words of affirmation".

Now, that puts me in a vulnerable spot. I suppose "needing" anything - really, actually being "needy" for whatever it is, put each of us in a vulnerable spot. With a little affirmation, I can be a much better man that I am without it. In my view, to some extent, that makes me a "project" - because the other person's actions will have (in my opinion) a big effect on my ability to be my best.

Maybe you don't like that terminology. I don't like it either. I'm hoping I'm just fine and some woman will feel fortunate to discover me (down the road a bit).

-AD

Just think what a boring world it would be if we didn't have any emotional needs. Without emotional needs, we wouldn't have any use for each other. Even my darling dog has deep emotional needs. His top need is Recreational Companionship. His second is Affection. Third is Admiration. Fourth is Domestic Support mostly in the form of food, bed, chew toys etc. Fifth is family commitment. He's still a puppy and will be altered shortly, otherwise SF would be near the top.

Now, if only men were that easy to figure out.

But AD, we all need something in a relationship. If we didn't, why would we even bother looking for one in the first place?

And yes, any relationship does make you vulnerable to a certain extent - at least it does if it is real. Because you have to open yourself up to that other person, expose things that they could use against you, and let them know what you need. It makes you vulnerable - but you can't have a good relationship without doing so either.

If admiration is a need you have, here's a suggestion: find a worthy cause, and donate some time to it. Help out somewhere where they really need it. Fr example, I plan to go become a volunteer at a local pregnancy center in a few weeks - I'm waiting until after VBS is over at my church, because until then, things are really busy for me. Places like that almost always need help, and they usually are pretty appreciative and let you know it. So, you'd be helping them and yourself at the same time.

It won't replace the need for admiration from a partner in a relationship - but it could help you be a little less needy when you are looking for someone. Which should help you attract more healthy relationship partners. It's true that we can attract the wrong kind of people by the vibes we put out. So if you seem very needy for admiration, it will have the effect of putting off people who might be good for you, and attracting those who might take advantage of that need.

That's why we talk about working on ourselves. You won't get rid of that EN - you'll just be able to make yourself not be TOO needy.

Does that make sense? I'm not saying you ARE too needy - but if this is a concern for you, there are ways to handle it.

I wholeheartedly agree, GG.

-AD

osxgirl,

Of course "admiration" or "affirmation" or whatever it is - can be harvested on the job, from friends, from family (my 11-y-o nephew, for example) - and from within. I'm not just falling over dead without it. LOL

And, I don't think I'm set up to become the slave of the first woman who fills that need in me.

So, maybe I'm not a project after all.

-AD

*If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness.*

TR--I wanted to add some things here about this. It's not that women don't want to see a mans weaknesses, but she also wants to see his strengths.

I'm not talking physical strength that he can bench 250 lbs or pick up something 20 x's his weight.

It's the inner strengths we desire to see, for me, depending on why a man is crying actually shows an inner strength, the ability to show he's human and actually wants someone there to comfort them in those times.

Crying over the loss of a parent or close friend is a strength, crying over the loss of a job because he wasn't performing up to par doesn't. So the reason behind the tears
plays a huge part in what is percieved as a strength or weakness.

If he is able to accept the fact he screwed up at work, and take responsibility for his lack of performance and work to make corrections in that area, I would see that as a strength.

A man that hears other men making rude comments about women and either joins them or says nothing against it, isn't someone I'd want to be in a relationship with. I wanted a man who isn't afraid to speak up and say something, even at the risk of offending them. I guess it's about being able to call a spade a spade.

It's not that I want a man to 'rescue me" but I wanted someone who isn't afraid to protect me and make sure I'm safe.

Example, One night it was storming really bad here, and there was a guy whose car had broken down and was walking home from work in the rain. I offered to drive him the rest of the way home as it was about 5 blocks from where I lived,
my now husband over heard my offering this man a ride, and asked if I knew the man, I didn't, and he asked that I call him when I got home so that HE would know I got home safely,
I personally thought he was strange for asking as I was an adult and knew the risk I was taking offering a stranger a ride, but his concern made an impression on me. And when I got home I called to let him know I was safe. He couldn't take the man because he was working, but he would have had he been able to.

He's one that if he over hears men talking disrespectfully about women, he says something. He's even called his bestfriend on his language and comments about the man's sister and his wife. He told him point blank you don't talk to or about women that way and it doesn't matter who the woman is. Again, it made an impression and not only on me, but his friends sister.

So, you see it's really not about wanting to be rescued, but more about wanting a man to not be afraid to protect them, not that he needs to get up and bust someone in the mouth, but that he SAYS something.

I actually dated a man who would just as well punch someone in the face if they looked at or made a rude comment to me, and it just wasn't the same. The physical violence certainly didn't cause me to feel 'safe' it only brought on fear that either he or someone else would end up in the hospital, in jail or dead. No Thanks...I don't want to live in that kind of fear.

So it's a willingness to say something that MIGHT end up in a fight, but the intention isn't to get into a fight, but only to stop the comments.

Does that make sense?

TR,

I think you have identified a desirable attribute in a man. A man should be the defender of the weak - including "the weaker sex". Gallantry is, in my opinion, a very good thing. But I wonder ... where are you going that you run into all these jerks that insult women? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Actually, one major problem we had was that W's nephew lived with us - and was very disrespectful to her. She insisted that we take him in, so for the most part, this is on her head. My wife is Russian. N and W conversed in Russian. Consequently, I didn't always know what he was saying - and didn't have the opportunity to defend her. Every time she complained to me about him, I would tell her that I would speak to him, but she asked me not to. Then later, after he had finally moved out, she was blaming me. It was a no-win situation for me.

-AD

Oh my, yes! My H used to say he couldn't understand my "requirements" and therefore shouldn't be expected to meet them. (or try to understand them either, it seems). These were my boundaries! He all but said his inability to understand was because my "requirements" were screwed up. My requirements included things like not telling people my personal business (like how much $$ I made), or about personal conversations between us about our relationship. Also, not taking the food I had purchased for my lunches - especially when I told him what those things were. It was too much for him to remember, and unreasonable of me to expect him to. He felt that any food in the house (or anything else in the house for that matter) should be fair game for him if he felt like it. I can't tell you how many meals didn't get made, and how many lunches I wasn't able to make for myself, because he ate the things he found without even mentioning it. When I tried to keep enough things in the house so he could eat what he wanted, he'd say he didn't want a certain item - then later eat mine. He'd say it wasn't reasonable to expect him to remember what he said earlier, or that maybe he had just changed his mind later.

My own personal belongings also disappeared when he wanted to use them - and I often found them laying around in the garage or basement, or wherever he dropped them when he was done with them.

AD,

**But I wonder ... where are you going that you run into all these jerks that insult women? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />**

TR--LOL, actually, it's not really that they were all 'jerks' the one guy I dated was a very nice man, yet, his idea of protecting a woman and mine were quite different, and he couldn't grasp that I didn't like the 'fighting' as a way of showing he cared. I mean, after all what woman wouldn't want a man to "fight" for her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

And to be honest in my younger days that was my 'childish' understanding as well, I understood the need for 'physical' protection, but I didn't understand the need for 'emotional' protection, I knew the physical protection didn't 'feel' right, but it was something tangiable that I could 'see'. If that makes sense.

Do you remember the old song "Looking for love in all the wrong places"? I was looking in the wrong places, and honestly, I really didn't know what I wanted and actually needed in a relationship to be happy.

I'm teaching my son and daughters the need for both in a relationship.

I honestly think your need for admiration falls in to that you want to be admired for your ability to protect and provide for the woman you love. I think all men have that inner need. Shoot I even see it in my 10 year old son, he needs to feel he can protect the little girls, and they all admire him for that, to the point they are ALL calling him.
He's the little knight in shining armour standing up for them even when he doesn't peticularly like them.