I'm not D'd yet.

(Just starting with that so that none of you ladies think I'm fishing over here).

I'm feeling like I'm so broken and messed up by this marriage, that I won't *ever* be back to my best again.

I know there are some ladies who prefer "project" men.

What's with that?

Is a poor misunderstood, mistreated, good guy, a good project?

Is the entire idea of taking a "broken" man just a bad idea?

In answer to this last question, I would say "yes", even though I'm likely to be one such man.

What do you ladies say? What are the criteria for an acceptable "project" (if you entertain such candidates)?

-AD

I don't want a project. I'm trying to heal myself. I want someone who is constantly working to improve themself too.
To me, a project man as you describe is a codependent behavior, an enabler.
Become an emotionally healthy person and you will attract emotionally healthy people (and learn to avoid those who aren't).

Amen to [color:"blue"] Newly's [/color] post. I know that some people (men or women!) gravitate to those "needy" types...it helps them feel better about themselves cuz they "fixed something". Not me!

[color:"blue"]AD [/color] - you know the MB routine, you've been here a while. Use the stuff you've learned here to improve yourself and you'll probably be fine. In fact, I'm sure you've already improved in many ways since you typed your first post back in 2001, so just continue the process. (And it IS a process, for all of us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

AD,

You are probably further along than you give yourself credit for....

Been here 4 years? You've HAD to have learned something whether you wanted to or not...lol

Just to get back on topic...No projects for me, thank you very much, and I won't be a project for anyone else.

Did one project and that didn't turn out well <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rebornman

Well, I am not female, but I agree with newly/avondale wholeheartedly..your post made me feel actually kinda nauseous (no offense intended AD). Why would any of us want to enter such a relationship, is kinda crazy, instead of being healthy, we deliberately enter an unhealthy, and potentially enabling/co-dependent, unhealhy relationship. AD, you must fix yourself, at least enuf to hold up your end of dating, (one has to date to complete the last steps of healing, cause you need a partner to push/pull with... and that is ok, but you are still responsible for your behavior even then).

People who seek projects, are themselves revealing by that choice they are a very screwed up person. Healthy people only seek other healthy people (or reasonably close, cause none of us is perfectly healthy)...but we should have the basics down pretty good. Not be needy, make committments, be dependable, be honest, discern and meet others needs, communicate our needs, not be obsessive, clingy, jealous, angry etc.

"Why would any of us want to enter such a relationship
Because sometimes that's all we know from our FOO, and what we recognize.
BTW, it helps to have good, emotionally healthy friends around to call you on your behavior - particularly when you don't see the issues clearly.

Thanks folks.

That's the answer I expected. (The right answer in my opinion).

Is my W's OM a project? (a thought that crossed my mind).

I've seen (on MB forums and IRL) women who seem to go after "projects". I was just curious what the ladies on this forum would say.

I think a man has to be a MAN.

Ladies, however, still have the "damsel in distress" model available to them - and it works pretty well on a lot of guys. I think W reeled in both me and OM using that model.

But, you know, it goes both ways. A "project" lady isn't a good prospect either. I've noticed some on MB (and IRL) who seems so shaken by the abuse, mistreatment and etc., that I would have a hard time respecting them after they submitted to all that. I feel uneasy with that conclusion. My W had a terrible childhood. Does that make her forever unfit for marriage? Or, should she have waited until she was, oh, about 50 and "fixed herself" first? Love does not "conquer all", but isn't it worth anything?

-AD

I have a big problem with how you worded your statement here

*I would have a hard time respecting them after they submitted to all that.*

As a child, where for most people abuse starts, it's a matter of survival to submit to abuse, it's not like you have a choice to which family you are born in to, or can really stop the abuse if you wanted, short of destroying your family. (and what child wants to do that???)

However, once your an adult, you do have choices, a choice to heal or a choice not to, and in most cases, people who come from those backgrounds don't really understand the depth of emotional damage that was done.

So they tend to believe that just admitting it happened is healing, as it does bring a sense of relief to share it with someone, but the truth is, that's just the beginning of the healing process.

Now on another note--what does it mean to you to be a "MAN"?

TR,

I'm not always good at "wording" things. When I say that I would have a hard time respecting somebody who submitted to abuse, I'm not talking about my W or about any child - but about an adult. I also repeat that I am very uneasy with feeling that way.

"What does it mean (to me, you asked), to be a "MAN"?

Ah, that is the question that I thought I knew the answer to, but have been proven wrong by the results obtained. I am re-examining this issue - and coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that much of the stereotyped male behaviour that I rejected long ago may serve a purpose - and that I did my self a disservice by rejecting it.

But if you are asking me, and not my STBXW, what are the attributes that a man should have - I would say, first of all, that most of these attributes are simply the attributes of a mature adult - and not in any way limited to men. They would apply to both men and women.

Attributes of a mature person (first):
1) The ability to make a plan and follow it through to the goal.
2) The integrity to do what you have committed to do.
3) Truthfullness.
4) Willingness to admit responsibility for faults and errors - and eagerness to take corrective action.
5) Readyness to accept and accomodate and forgive the faults and errors of others, while allowing those others to carry responsibilty for their own faults.
6) Ability to accept that which is outside of the individual control and adjust to accomodate it. (mature people don't beat their heads against the wall).
7) Understanding of your place in a matrix of people in society - but also the possibility to change that place to a more favorable one.

Attributes of a man:

You tell me. TR.

-AD

AD -

You might be surprised at how easy it is to get "caught" in an abusive situation, even as an adult, and how difficult it can be to get out of it.

I've finally come to realize that my XH was emotionally abusive. My whole family saw that for a long time, but I didn't. Some of it is very, very subtle, and makes the person being abused lose confidence in themselves, without even realizing why.

In my case, I've had to try and answer the question of how I could let someone else do that to me, and why it took me so long to get out. In the end, my XH's A was really the catalyst, and not the emotional abuse (though many would consider As to be emotional abuse as well). The answer for me? Well, I got there in the first place because he did not act like that in the beginning. At the start of our relationship, XH was kind, considerate, attentive, and flattering. Somewhere about halfway through our marriage I was telling him that I felt like I was an afterthought to him. By the end, I was telling him I would be happy to still be an afterthought, because I never entered his mind at all. One example: if we were both working in the kitchen, and he needed something from the cabinet I was standing in front of, he would just push in front of me without saying anything to get what he needed. Not physically abusive - just like I wasn't even there.

Now if he had done that sort of behavior in the beginning, I would have told him not to let the door hit him on the way out. Even if it had jumped directly to that from the normal (saying excuse me, can I get in that cabinet, or asking me to hand him what he needed), I would have told him to hit the road, I'm sure. But it sneaks up on you. He got more and more disrespectful of me over time.

And he did a whole lot of little things that, if I said them out loud to someone, I usually got a response of "oh, yeah, mine does that too," or "yeah, mine does this." In other words, none of the things he did seemed that bad, more like the annoying little things we all do that we learn to tolerate in each other. But when you put them all together, add in the fact that he did these things a lot more often, plus a lot of the things he did were done because he thought it was funny to make me doubt myself, it wears down your self-confidence over time. Not only do you start feeling worthless, but you don't even realize that it's all these things the other person is doing that is making you feel that way. It creeps up on you a little at a time. Most people, including myself, were amazed that I let him do that to me. But it crept up so slowly that I didn't even realize it was happening. I just knew I felt miserable most of the time.

And as far as just leaving a situation like that - well, first of all, it's hard to leave an abusive situation when you don't realize it IS abusive. Also, in my case, I don't really believe in divorce. Infidelity is really the only thing that was a legitimate reason for divorce. And even then, I firmly believe that you should try and get past it, assuming your partner comes around and stops that behavior. When I found out about XHs A, I committed to working on the relationship, even though I'd always said that would be the end of our marriage. I tried to reconcile, even though, from the first day, a part of me really didn't want to at all. Why? Because I believe so firmly in marriage. I made a vow for it to be until one of us died, and I don't break promises easily.

In fact, through most of our attempts at reconciliation, though I did truly try, I really didn't want to. I felt like the A gave me a ticket out of the marriage. So, I chose to stay in an abusive situation, even though I wanted to leave it, because of the strength of my belief in those vows. I've often said it would have been easier if he had physically abused me, because I would not have tolerated that.

So, to bring this a little more back on topic, I think you're right about it not being a good idea to get into relationships with "project" people. But just because someone was in an abusive situation (as an adult) doesn't mean they would be such a "project." It really depends on how they have handled it afterwards, and if they've done some healing.

I know in my case, there was a guy I started talking with after we were separated (but before the divorce was final....and I know now that was a bad idea, but in my defense, at the time I thought the paperwork would be done any day at that time, not knowing my X had managed to screw things up!) I know now that I talked to him longer than I would now; back then, I hadn't gotten much of my self-confidence back. But I had evidently gotten some back, because one day, after we'd been talking for a couple of weeks, and acutally met in person once, we were talking on the phone, and I realized he was treating me much the same way as my X did, and I got very mad. I didn't talk to him again after that.

Now, though, thinking back on all of our conversations, I know that he wouldn't have made it past the first one. Even though he was being nice, and there really wasn't any one thing I can put my finger on that he said at the beginning to make my radar go up, I can tell you it would have.

I guess my point is - yes, sometime people gravitate towards abusive or co-dependant relationships. But just because someone was in one doesn't mean they are that kind of person. In my case, it happened so gradually that I just sort of became "desensitized," and didn't recognize the behavior for what it was. With a little distance from it, however, I can recognize it again, and, in fact, think I am more aware of the subtle signs, and you can be real sure I'm going to be extra cautious from now on. As they say - fool me once, chame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me!

Oxgirl, I think that was a great description of an emotionally abusive relationship. It happens little by little over time, and you can't even believe it. You think you must have understood something wrong.
And Denial plays a big part in staying, your H couldn't possibly be behaving that way could he?
I am so happy to be out of an emotionally abusive relationship; although with kids, I still get subjected to his abuse and odd views of the world.
As I've said before, my goal is to become emotionally healthy myself, so that I can model good behavior for my children (and pray they don't get caught up in the co-dependent cycle again).

AD,

I personally agree with what you wrote, concerning mature adults. Which boils down to treating others with "respect" which falls into so many different categories.

You respect the other person enough to be honest with them,
even if what you say might hurt their feelings. Why? Because you (again respect) them enough to believe they are fully capable of handling their own emotions (self-control) and not lash out in anger because their feelings have been hurt.


I would describe a man as a "servant-leader" one who is not going to ask or expect someone to do something that he, himself is not willing to do.

If he wants a sexually intimate relationship with his wife, he will be emotionally intimate with his wife. He will lead by sharing himself with her on an emotional level, letting her into his world.

If he expects his wife/children to treat him with respect, he treats them respectfully. And they in turn learn to treat others respectfully.

If he wants his wife/kids to pick up after themselves, he picks up after himself. If he isn't picking up after himself, how can he expect his kids to learn to pick up after themselves? Why should he expect his wife to pick up after him, he is not an infant, who can't care for himself.
(as that takes the marriage to more of a parent/child relationship, than a husband/wife partnership)

It works both ways though, if a wife/mother doesn't treat her husband with respect, the children learn men aren't to be respected. If a husband/father doesn't respect his wife, the children learn women aren't to be respected.


What is (in your opinion) stereo-typical male behavior?

There is another point of view here too about the nature of abuse, and what happens when one is already married B4 realizing it exists.

It is non-trivial to end a marriage, and it is still - in my opinion - a virtue to give someone a chance to change. Many marriages have been fixed because one or both parties were willing to make the changes necessary. It is NOT easy to know when or where to draw the lines however. I'm not saying one should go into a relationship planning on doing this work but when you are already there it is another story. Being willing to work on it is one thing, knowing how to do that is another - so many people think they are "giving things a chance", but don't really have a chance of success. This does not necessarily mean they are subjecting themselves to abuse.

Now - about the nature of abuse: Not all abuse is overt. Therefore it can be veiled as something else, including twisted into looking like the opposite of abuse. This is an insight I've recently gotten from my lawyer (my legal $$ at work!). All the rhetoric in the world about how much someone did for you, can be mostly smoke and mirrors. Sometimes if that person really did do some of those things for you, this truth can hide the fact they are expecting unreasonable things in return.

It is also true that people who are messed up from their own family backgrounds may end up emotionally abusing others who do not realize what is happening to them. It is NOT always easy to see this when it happens to you, especially if YOU were raised to take responsibility for your own behavior (instead of pointing fingers at the other person and being hypercritical of him/her.)

Also, if you are a person who tends to be accepting of opinions that differ from yours, you can have trouble drawing the line between doing this in a healthy manner, and recognizing when it is unhealthy. I think it depends on how much you know about healthy / unhealthy behavior to begin with, and how good your personal role models are / were. And, it depends on whether you know how to spot people who are not "safe" as opposed to those who are basically "safe" but might need reminding from time to time. We are all a product of our genes and our experiences, and we are all capable of being not-so-nice at times, and not-so-safe at times.

I am going through this learning and growth process now - learning what was not "safe" in my marriage, and also where my boundaries were violated (before I even knew they were "boundaries" of mine). In my first M I didn't realize my H was an alcoholic because he was a dry drunk until the last year of our M. I knew nothing about alcoholism except for stereotypes which did not fit him. My current H is probably a narcicisst - something I had never even heard of until people on this list told me about it. And I'm sure there are many other emotional disturbances I know nothing about and therefore would probably not recognize either. Any of which could cause harm to me in a relationship if I don't learn to spot them B4 it's too late.

I may have some growing and learning to do, but I do NOT consider myself a "project" person. I consider myself someone who's positive side has an Achilles Heel to it: I am capable of misinterpreting behavior and being too trusting, which leads to giving people the benefit of the doubt when I shouldn't. I need to understand this better. But, according to your definitions, I'm probably one of those who "submitted to abuse". I, however, reject that assumption and its corresponding label.

osxgirl,

Oh I understand how people gradually get into abusive relationships. I never would have imagined that I would let somebody treat me as WW has treated me. And, of course, in the beginning she was respectful, thoughtful, affectionate. It took a while before she got to the point of hitting, kicking, scratching, hairpulling, namecalling etc. etc. In some effort to be fair to her, she is past most of that now (except the verbal stuff). But I did allow her to do that - and that makes me think I am vulnerable in some way. I don't think it would neccesarily have happened to another man in my place.


Oh, I understand this impulse. But I think, as Deja has pointed out, that there may be alternatives. Just because a person does something which hurts you does not mean that they are a bad person - or that you cannot have a good relationship with them. This is especially true if you have not firmly communicated to them that you will not stand for this treatment.

I have a theory that some people seem to repeatedly get into this kind of relationship - not entirely because the "abused" person chooses abusers, but because the "abused" person does not implement boundaries in a constructive way. I don't know how to express the thought clearly, but I'll try. Take your example of your H's treatment of you in the kitchen. It may be that a large percentage of people would have ended up treating you that same way - if they spent enough time in the kitchen with you. It's not that it's entirely your fault, but that you are responsible for protecting yourself from the thoughtless actions of others. I can easily imagine a scenario where one person is resenting the action of another, but never tells them - and the "abuser" keeps on doing the same and worse, simply because they are not put on notice that this behaviour is hurtful. But after awhile, the accumulated resentment and bitterness become overwhelming and the "abused" one lets loose - seeking justice.

But, if this is the case, it's almost like a trap for the unwary man who comes along, doesn't know he's doing anything offensive, then suddenly finds himself accused of "abuse". Good boundary enforcement is good for both people in the relationship. Poor boundary enforcement by one party has negative consequences for both.

I'm not sure if I've communicated my thought clearly.

-AD

TR,


I used to believe this, but no longer do. It looks like a quote straight from W. Harley.

If the wife expects the man to be her foundation, he cannot show her his weakness. I could not talk to my wife about, for example, problems at work, because it undermined her sense of security. I had to pretend to be the captain of the unsinkable ship - while WW was busy drilling holes in the hull.

And, I suspect this is not an attribute unique to her.

The old fashioned ideas that a man never cries, and never admits weakness or failure - unfortunately, may be a better model than the currently popular (in America) ideas. My wife is the only person who has seen me cry since I was 10 years old. I wish she never had. She once said "A man should not have needs". (She denies it, but she said it.) I think she thinks that a man should not have "feelings". I honestly wish that I didn't. I could be a much more effective person without them.

-AD

more for ...

TR,


It didn't work for me. Her idea of doing laundry is to stuff everything in the washer, then move it to the dryer, then take it out and throw it on the floor somewhere. When you need clothes, you go look in the "clean pile". When you take clothing off (or finish with a towel), you drop it where you are. (This goes for tissues, paper-towels, plastic wrappers and packaging also.) Thus, my child's clothing could be found in every room of the house - P.J.'s under the kitchen table, because WW changed DD's clothes there etc. I don't think any number of years of example would have taught her to pick up after herself.

What I had to do was to enforce a boundary. I needed to say "This house is a mess. Pleas hang your clothes and put the laundry away. Please don't leave clothes in the kitchen. Please change DD's clothes in her room or in the bathroom - and put the dirty clothes in the hamper. Please pick up your garbage. Don't leave it for me." But I didn't say those things - or didn't say them often enough.

Of course, if I said those things, I would have gotten "I'm not your slave" or similar responses. You see, my failure to implement good boundaries resulted in my being subjected to this disorder in the home. My example was not enough. I had to be willing to endure the negative response. There was almost always a negative response to everything I asked of my wife.

My daughter, on the other hand, is young enough to learn from example - and also I didn't feel any reluctance to tell her what to do. As a result, she has developed at least some habits of neatness. She used to fuss at WW to "put away the towel" (instead of leaving it on the bed or the floor).

(Now, I'm griping. Sorry. It's unconstructive.)

-AD

Deja,

I agree with you in most of what you have said.

My W was very very messed up from her background - and she didn't/doesn't realize completely how much she hurt me by her behaviour. Nor does she reallize how easily she could have gotten better use out of me. She grew up with a controlling, manipulative mother - who seems to have been her only role-model of how to get what you want from a man. I feel sorry for my FIL (as does at least one of his sons).

You conclude that you are not a "project", and I'm glad for you.

I'm not sure that I can say the same about myself.

-AD

Are you sure you're project & not just a man in need of some understanding & compassion? Or a man who could be paired up with a better match next time out?

To me a project man is one who has serious issues regarding very important relationship skills. ie, serious conflict avoider coupled with passive aggressive tendencies. Unwillingness to regard his role in problems, unwillingness to truely work on problems. There are more but these are just a few.

.

AD -- this makes me think and question. I did not think of myself as a person who did not implement boundaries, but I guess that is what I did(n't) do. Now, I'd like to explore something further on this topic. Do you think a healthy relationship needs to have boundaries firmly established? Or do they get established when - and if - needed?

This reminds me of getting a new puppy. I set boundaries VERY firmly until the pup is housebroken, and knows the house rules. But they are the kind of rules I would expect an adult dog - any adult dog - to know. You don't dig in the garbage. You don't chew the furniture. etc. Ditto with people. I really expect adult humans do not read each other's mail, listen in on their phone calls, tell their whole family how much $$ their spouse makes, or help themselves to any and everything in the fridge, including food purchased for future meals, and their spouses weekly lunches.

It seems to me if you have to lay out all your boundaries in advance, there is something wrong with this picture. But, maybe I'm wrong - obviously my track record isn't that good!