Loved this one AD
Too funny!! Your grandmother has some spunk!!!
Karona

It depends on what you call creepy, in all honesty.

I think it's creepy if you're not clear with all the people involved about what's going on, whether they ask you for clarification or not.

If everyone's clear on what's going on and fine with it, I don't see a problem.

I understand people not being fine with kissing multiple people on the same day, because that would wierd me out. I wouldn't say the word is creepy if it's all handled with Radical Honesty, but it would be clear to me that kissing means less to that person than it does to me, enough so that I shouldn't be kissing/dating them. But it would be fine with me if they did multiple dates a day with other people who were fine with it while I moved on without them.

For the number of times we've talked and been together, I would say that I'm appropriately interested in her. In fact, although I didn't have the sparks with K that I had with my XGF, of the seven women I'm currently communicating with, she has the most potential of something more developing.

K didn't have to tell me that she liked me alot on our first date. I read it in her body language. She just confirmed it when we talked next on the telephone. Did she commit faux pas by "showing her hand" this early in the relationship? Not in my book. I don't play that game. My XGF used to "hide her hand" and it would drive me nuts. I was getting mixed signals and it was setting off my "trust issues baggage".

My only concern is that she not set herself up to be hurt if things don't work out between us. Topie25 put the guy on the "friendship only" burner because if she allowed herself to really like the guy only to have him fall for someone else, it's painful. It's less painful if you're not so invested. I want K to be guarded with her feelings for me because I can't make any promises at this point.

I've done some research on the definition of what a player is. My own interpretation of a player is - a person who manipulates the feelings & emotions of another person in the guise of a relationship for personal gain. For men, it is for sex, for women it is for money. That's why I consider it an insult to be refered to as a player. But, I've read that the definition may be broader to include those people who understand human nature and use that knowledge when attracting the opposite sex. If that's so, then guilty as charged. But doesn't everybody do that to a certain extent? I mean, women don't put on makeup because its fun, do they? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

To answer my own original question, I would have to say that there is no one right answer. It is different for different people. What wouldn't bother me, does bother other people and probably vice versa. My new rule is to allow 6 hours or more per date. Oh... and never look at my watch during a date. Heaven forbid I should just want to know what time it is... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> (K gave me ****** because I glanced at my watch the last time we went out)

And for the kissing question... I think it just goes back to the exclusive issue. Is it something that should be just be reserved for exclusive relationships? That's a personal decision. Past that, frequency is (in my book) irrelevant.

Yip, like I said, it's a matter of semantics and extremes. So we agree <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. In my book, it does not need to be sex as the personal gain. It could be anything that you want - sex, money, affection, company, fun, excitement, whatever.

Dating is by definition a game of sorts, we try to figure out the other person while they try to figure us out. So to some extent we are all players when we date.

What I consider players are those people who misrepresent themselves in any way to get what they want. It could be anything from outright lying, to much more subtle things. If you feel like you are always honest, then you are fine.

But, if you (for example) tell your dates that you are looking for a longterm relationship and are ready for one, and in reality (for example) you feel that you are still grieving over the loss of your last GF and really are just trying to kill the loneliness, then you are probably misleading them. See what I mean?

Big Guy, I am not calling you a player, I hope you heard me on that already. I am just saying that I think (from your posts) that you are a good guy (like me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), and so I want you to act like one with your dates. And it's easy to get excited about multiple dating - I am just saying that people who get really into multiple dating have a very short step to make before becoming players. I'm just trying to keep you from taking that step <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Peace.

AGG

Just a quick update on that... the person he was really interested in; it turns out they aren't all that compatible anyways. But that's his loss... he's still on that backburner, and it's all because he said too much too soon. LOL.

The lesson here? It's STILL important to keep our mouths shut (about other dates) at the early stages of dating, when just getting to know someone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Karen

I'm not out there dating yet but I do have to say I would be offended also. If you want to date 2 women on the same day keep it quiet. lol... I know you're out there trying to make a connection and I'm assuming that you have to go out with several people to do that. Just don't hurt anyone's feelings. God....I'm kinda started to dread dating now. lol. I've been asked out a zillion times already and I'm overwhelmed with that. Holy Cow!!!!
Good luck Big Guy

Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I'm such a geek.

This is why it is really important to establish objectives up front.

I am not looking for a long term monogomous relationship. Therefore I do not date people who are seeking that. I am very very upfront about that.

I have committed to not become "involved" until after my daughter graduates from high school. I'm not going to cause any disruption to her life in terms of introducing her to BF's, moving anyone into my home, etc.

I only date when my XH has the kids. Anyone who doesn't understand or respect my boundries - I won't date.

I do not consider myself to be a player -- whatsoever! I am very honest about my intentions and situation.

I'm just the opposite of you Lexxxy. I ONLY seek long term monogamous relationships and, because I'm not looking for one right now, I don't date. That doesn't mean I sit around the house and boo-hoo. I have friends of both sexes and I do things with them. I guess by some people's definition, because I take a single female friend to dinner and give her a little kiss at the end of the evening, I'm dating. But it isn't dating in the truest sense. If it were, I date men, too.

Whoa, you take men out and kiss them at the end of the evening? Kewl, you have some really relaxed male friends. A lot of guys would freak out over that one.

Well, I think "dating" inherently has some sort of a romantic tone to it. It may involve sex, it may involve kissing, hugging, or flirting, but there are clear differences between dating and simply hanging out with members of the opposite sex.

I still wonder what the objective of "dating" is if not to lead to a relationship? When someone says that they simultaneously date many guys for a long time, what happens on these dates? If they presumably don't sleep with all these different people (that sounds really creepy, even if it's been discussed and agreed by all parties), do they kiss them all? That sounds kinda creepy too, to me. If not that, then how is this "dating" any different from "hanging out" with buds?

I guess I am having trouble understanding the point of going on dates if you are not willing to have a longterm relationship. Is it just to pass the time, have someone buy you dinner, or what?

Dating to me is like courting, it is a process, but with a goal in mind, not a way of life.

AGG

No, the guys only get a kiss if they promise to respect me in the morning and I expect flowers on my desk by noon. LOL Really, though, I have no problem hugging a close male friend I haven't seen in a while. I'm secure enough in my masculinity that I can show affection to other males.

Why not date just because it's fun? It's FREELOADING. Yes, you can do most of the same things with your buddies, but buddies don't meet all EN's (and I'm not talking about SF). What is creepy for you may not be creepy for someone else. Some people consider it creepy for a single woman to be alone with a man who is not a relative. Does that make them right and you wrong? No, everyone is different.

Courting is a RENTER looking to BUY. But if you're not in a position where you want to BUY just yet, as Lexxxy is (and me), then why not date just because its fun to date?

Why more than one? Dating multiples makes it easier to maintain emotional distance. If you don't want to BUY, then dating multiples helps you avoid that position.

LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I don't understand dating for the sake of dating. But I can understand that it works for others, so no problem.



Like what? I am not being difficult or obtuse (I hope), I just don't understand. I have many female buddies, and I enjoy their company, I enjoy chatting with them, and spending time with them. But this is not dating.

What EN's can dating meet that buddies can't meet, other than affection and SF?


Of course, I wasn't trying to pass judgement. It's just that players are defined as those who use people for sex and affection with no longterm plans (at least that is the definition I read), so I am struggling to see the point of a non-player dating without sex, affection, or longterm relationship goals.


I understand. It's like window shopping <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I am afraid of window shopping, because I inevitably see something I want, but to each their own <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

I think that when you go on Match, most people assume that you are looking for a relationship. Now, you can say that you want to take it slow, which is fine and good, but I think if you honestly tell women that you have no intention to ever get involved with anyone exclusively, that your e-mail box will be lonely. What do you think?

AGG

Primarily I was thinking about affection, but I suppose you could throw in attractiveness, admiration as things you don't really get from buddies.




I think we need to nail down the definition of "player". I agree with your first definition, not with the second. If two people agree to be affectionate or even have sex with each other without committment to longterm plans, they are no more using or playing each other than two buddies who meet conversational or recreational needs. In both situations, ENs are being met, the only difference is the perception of exclusivity appropriateness.

If I want to hold hands with a girl without considering longterm plans with her, that doesn't make me a player, does it? I'm using her for affection and haven't committed to marriage... What if she's just a good friend. Am I playing her then?

I think, all we're really talking about here is who defines what activities should be exclusive.



Without sex, affection or longterm relationship goals, its not dating... its called hanging out together.

Dating is learning about another person and once a certain level of trust is established, meeting each others ENs that aren't met by other relationships in your life.




More than once I've encountered women who don't know what they are looking for. Did that prevent me from wanting to go out with them? No. To say that you never bave any intentions to get involved with someone exclusively is a lie. How can you be so certain that you are going to feel the same way a year from now? No, I say I have no desire for an exclusive relationship right now. And that is the truth. It is radically honest. It's not playing them.

TBG, you've repeatedly described what you are doing as "feeloading." Don't you understand that freeloading always cost somebody? The freeloader is letting someone else pick up the cost of his grand old time. This isn't right. Believe it or not, TBG, what you are doing is using women. This is not only disrespectful to women, but isn't a healthy way to strengthen your taker.

Ah, so there is a difference in your evenings with women (the ones you kiss) vs. men.

No, no difference. A friend is a friend. But males in the U.S. get very uncomfortable if you kiss them, so it's best not to even go there. I do have some European friends who don't think anything about grabing you and giving you a kiss. It isn't "gay" behavior to them.

I suppose if I thought that women were hapless creatures incapable of providing informed consent and constantly needing to be protected from their own decisions I would agree with you, but I don't, so I don't.

I don't force any of the women I go out with to hold my hand. If she choses to hold my hand back despite knowing that I hold other women's hands, then that is her prerogative. If she choses not to hold my hand knowing that I also hold other women's hands, that's ok too. I don't make my dating her conditional on whether or not she holds my hand.

I don't try to get her to hold my hand by leading her on that she is the only woman to do so. THAT is what a player would do. I am honest with her and allow her to make an informed decision. I call this "treating a woman as an equal". Yeah, I know, it's a strange new concept, but hey, I'm a progressive guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tell me again how this is using her? If she gains benefit and I gain benefit, then at best you can say we are using each other. But then, when you meet recreational needs on your man-dates, one could argue that you are using them in the same fashion. How do you justify being so disrespectful to your man-friends?

You may be thinking, what's the big deal about holding hands? That's my point. Affection is affection. What we are really arguing about is where people draw the line for exclusive affection. Passing judgement on people who don't draw the line at the same place you do is unproductive. (and a little rude) To each thier own as long as they are honest about it, is what I believe. (and as much as you may think you know where I've drawn my line, you don't)

I don't know where you are getting your definition of a freeloader. Mine is from Dr. Harley's concepts of Freeloaders, Renters and Buyers.

Freeloading describes the level of reciprocal care a person is willing to provide in a relationship. It's not about getting a "free ride" off of anybody. It is a self-focused approach to relationships. Not always a pretty sight, but I can't begin to tell you how difficult it is for me NOT to put other people ahead of myself. It is second nature to me. And I see where it has damaged ALL of my past relationships. Until I learn how to speak up for myself and what I want out of a relationship, I will never have a successful one.

So, think of me what you will, but I will continue to treat women as equals and be focused on myself for the time being.