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I was reading ray3's post and I identified something I wanted to tell you. Write it off completely if you choose, but I felt compelled to let you know.
Bob,
You are a passionate fellow. That is cool, but what I don't think is cool is you telling someone looking for help that you are done with them, like they are some big failure because they didn't listen to YOU. It just reminded me of our first MC, who looked me dead in the face, with froz watching, and told me I was simply screwed. Like froz could not learn, listen or understand. It invalidated her feelings and it caused fights between her and I. All because the guy was taking the sessions personal. Like he had a stake in our success to the point that if we did not follow his way on his timeframe, we were doomed. You give really good advice most times, but I think sometimes you seem to take it personal when people don't listen to you or think like you. Maybe I am way off base, and if so, then I am sorry. I just wanted to convey what I saw.
Mulan,
You give good advice most of the time as well. Not every WS here is just like your WS. You seem to post like some folks are just like him. Maybe they are. Maybe they are not. Based on what someone says here, I think it would be hard to tell. I just wanted to point out that you seem extremely unhappy and your posts sometimes read as a vent for that... on to other posters. If you are so unhappy, how come you don't change your circumstance? I realize life is not that easy and I am honestly curious. We beat KMEJ, CarenMC and others for not getting out well after the getting is good. And I am not going to beat you up either. I mean, who am I? But sometimes something that quacks like a duck just isn't. This medium is very good for hiding that one important detail that changes the scene. Just a thought.
I realize that I have called you on the carpet here, so to say. I like both of you. I usually agree with the things you say and the advice you give. I just wanted to point out something I saw with the disclaimer that if it is offensive to you to hear such things from me, then I am sorry. At least consider it before you write it off because you think I have no business opening my mouth.
I am just trying to offer a perspective.
I wish you both well.
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I think that Bob did the right thing in leaving the thread. Ya can't help a person against his will. He is giving ray some good sound, tried and true Marriage Builders[this IS Marriage Builders, after all..] advice and ray is not listening. That is not what Ray wants to hear. If a person is not open minded enough to listen to sound advice then there is no reason to waste time on that person. Ray doesn't want Bob's help, rather he wants novices like bigger, etc to tell him what he wants to hear in direct contradiction to Marriage Builder's principles.
And I don't know, but I suspect that Dr. Harley has probably saved a few more marriages than some guy named "bigger" on the internet who has all of one month's experience on MB.
It's ok for ray to reject the advice that he asked for, but there is no reason to dismiss those as "emotional" who give him advice he doesn't want to hear. And there is certainly no reason for Bob to continue posting to someone who is clearly not listening. And it's perfectly ok that Ray doesnt want to listen to sound advice, that is his right. But it's also perfectly ok for Bob to shake the dust off his feet and move onto someone who wants his help.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It sounded more to me like Ray was trying to learn. It's a process. he can't be expected to "get it" overnight. But, of course, if Bob's advice was coming at his own detriment, he should exit. Ray doesn't want Bob's help, rather he wants novices like bigger, etc to tell him what he wants to hear in direct contradiction to Marriage Builder's principles. We could speculate as to what Ray wants, but it sounded like he was trying to learn. As a slow-learner, I can understand that. It's ok for ray to reject the advice that he asked for, but there is no reason to dismiss those as "emotional" who give him advice he doesn't want to hear. Sadly, some of the posts there did reek of "fire and brimstone" derived from projecting some trigger about someone's own situation. I think it may have been making it difficult for Ray to listen and understand - his responsibilty, of course, but he's new and some patience may be in order. Lately, some MB'ers have seemed to expect some of the newer members to "get it" overnight and become frustrated when they don't.
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p.s I would also add that this thread is another reason why many of the more experienced posters are leaving this forum. They invest enormous time and emotion into helping people understand Marriage Builders principles and are dimissed by some moron who knows absolutely nothing about Marriage Builders.
Bob and Mulan are experienced posters who did nothing more than try to help this man and they are not only dismissed but treated to a hostile "call out" thread. A bannable offense on many forums because it is so hostile. It's easy to see why many of our more experienced posters just give up in frustration and leave after reading this thread and the thread in question.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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a hostile "call out" thread Are you saying you thought Patriot's original remarks were hostile???
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It sounded more to me like Ray was trying to learn. It's a process. he can't be expected to "get it" overnight. I didn't observe any such thing. Rather, I saw a young man who was only open to opinions that confirmed his own. We see this all the time here. But, of course, if Bob's advice was coming at his own detriment, he should exit. Not necessarily his "detriment" but a clear waste of time that could be better devoted elsewhere. Sadly, some of the posts there did reek of "fire and brimstone" derived from projecting some trigger about someone's own situation. I think it may have been making it difficult for Ray to listen and understand - his responsibilty, of course, but he's new and some patience may be in order. Perhaps that is your own bias speaking. I saw some very sound, but unwelcome, advice being imparted. I think that Ray's "difficulty" relates to hearing anything that disagrees with his own opinion. And this is what frustrates folks, when someone asks for help, but clearly doesn't want anything other than affirmation of their own troubling pre-existing mind set.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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a hostile "call out" thread Are you saying you thought Patriot's original remarks were hostile??? Oh yes. Call out threads like this, designed to target certain folks and "call them on the carpet," are bannable offenses on most forums.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Not necessarily his "detriment" but a clear waste of time that could be better devoted elsewhere. All I can say is that I am grateful for those here who have been patient with me while I try to learn and thank God they didn't see me as a lost cause or a waste of time that could be better devoted elsewhere. I think a lot of this issue has to do with a topic which has been discussed many times here - differentiating posting styles - all can be effective, some just reach to people more easily, depending on personality types. I didn't observe any such thing. Rather, I saw a young man who was only open to opinions that confirmed his own. We see this all the time here. I often sound argumentative, too. I guess it's my way of feeling things out in order to gain understanding. I truly find it sad that this case may run off some of the more experienced posters. Their experience can be of great value. Again, I'm immensely grateful for those that didn't quickly write me off as a lost cause or someone who was unwilling to listen. I'm just a slow learner.
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<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Hostile thread? My post is running experienced posters off the board??
It's ok to slam the not-so-experienced and call it advice but mention something to the wise old sages around here and yet again I am a trouble maker?
I remember a thread by some guy running under the name of coach around here. one of the wise old sages, as I recall. He was run off, all right. And the masses said that if he wanted to leave and or come back, that was his choice.
I think the same thing applies here, no? I was simply trying to point out something I saw and do it in as mild-mannered as I could muster.
Bannable? my post? Ok, then report me. Have a mod come in here and strike me down...
and I assume the moron is me, yeah? If so, thanks... I guess.
How is calling someone a moron NOT an attack?
Maybe I missed something.
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Oh yes. Call out threads like this, designed to target certain folks and "call them on the carpet," are bannable offenses on most forums. Calling someone out doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. I thought Patriot had something to say and pointed it out in a respectful manner. Bob and Mulan have the choice to disregard, of course. Perhaps he makes a good point that Mulan and Bob could grow from. That seemed to be his intention, rather than being hostile and ridiculing either of them. If they choose to ignore, shall we write them off as unwilling to listen? If so, what makes them so different from Ray?
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patriot, let me point out that BobPure and Mulan are promoting Marriage Builders principles. This IS the Marriage Builders FORUM, not the "bigger" forum. Not the tell-them-whatever-they-want-to-hear forum. And I don't give a damn what happened in some other thread, call out threads are hostile and are bannable offenses on most forums.
To repay sincere, experienced Marriage Builders posters with call out threads for promoting MB principles is a travesty that is not condusive to helping others understand MB. This is a big reason why the more experienced posters no longer post here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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[
Calling someone out doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. I thought Patriot had something to say and pointed it out in a respectful manner. Frozen, no matter how you try to spin it, common sense would dictate that "calling you on the carpet" via a call out thread is a hostile gesture. There is nothing respectful about that.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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To repay sincere, experienced Marriage Builders posters with call out threads for promoting MB principles is a travesty that is not condusive to helping others understand MB. Interesting word "repay". Are they owed something because they are deemed more wise?
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frozen, do you not feel they deserved a little regard for taking the time and effort to respond to his thread? Did they deserve to be dismissed as overly emotional for promoting tried and true Marriage Builders principles? I don't know about you, when someone takes the time and trouble to respond to my threads, I prefer to thank them for their time rather than insult them. Isnt that just simple common decency?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You don't like my method of pointing out something to 'experienced' posters, disclaimer or no... like we should all just listen to people because they have been here a while. Fine. We can talk about that later. for now I have a request, if you will please help me. I seriously ask for your help. I have quoted my own post from the other thread below. Please point out the "non-MB' portions of it. I certainly do not want to be a moron and lead folks the wrong way. If I am going to take the time to post to people in a thoughtful manner, I certainly want it to be all MB principle based. ray3,
Hello. I too am in the Military and understand completely the issues you deal with on a deployment away from home. I did a tour in Korea. I am on a stateside deployment now. If you are in an area where it is hot, stay safe and do the things you have been trained to do. Time will pass and you will be home soon.
Being open and honest is a great thing. Never stop doing that. My guilt-ridden personality acted opposite and my MO became hide everything from everyone. Unfortunately, my behavior made accountability impossible, and that was fertile ground for me to listen to temptation. No one would know. All that. For you, remain accountable. In everything. That helps an M.
As for your relationship with Kristen, here's the real poop as I see it. She may be a friend from way back. Just one of the guys and such. A fact is a man having a relationship with a woman that is not his wife is a risk factor. If this friend is also a friend of the wife, then the risk is lessened. A mutual friend is better than a female friend singular to you. Talking to this female friend about your personal relationship with your wife increases the risk. If she knows things about your relationship with your wife, like happiness or lack thereof, friction between your spouse and you, problems you have, it is POSSIBLE that your friend COULD use this knowledge to her advantage and play into the things you WANT so you start to fall for her. It's possible. Then again, it is possible that you could have a friendship-boundaried relationship with Kristen and never sleep with her. Some of the important factors to pay attention to is does Kristen fill any need for you that your wife is not? If so, risk increased. Does your wife totally agree with you talking to Kristen and, possibly, does she talk to Kristen as well? Mutual friend and all of that? If so, risk decreased.
The point is having a relationship with a woman that is not your spouse is a risk. Doesn't mean you are guaranteed to sleep with her. Doesn't mean you are guaranteed not to either. A risk. So, identify it as a risk and then you have to make your decision as to what you want to do with that. I am not going to tell you to be all out or all in because I do not know your situation exactly, but I will tell you it is a risk... because it is. Driving down the road is a risk. People participate in that all the time, and for as much as some here might want to shoot that down as an example, the fact remains. It is a risk. Writing off any risk out of hand because "oh come on... nothing bad will happen on the road" is shortsighted. Identify the risks in your life and then place control measures against them to lessen those risks. Standard military risk assessment. Maybe that means you stop talking to Kristen period. Maybe it doesn't mean that. You will be the one responsible for managing that risk in your life.
For your interpretation of the principles here, I don't think there is anything wrong with going on a hunting trip. It can be made wrong(strip club runs, women on the trip and so on) but it doesn't sound like you are doing that. Your wife will have at least one thing she likes to do that either you don't like or she just likes to do herself. Same for you. Look at POJA for your answer on this. But be careful to not make it a 'win/lose' discussion. POJA is about NEGOTIATION. You want something. She wants something. Then you negotiate. It is hard to negotiate if you are not used to it. Frozen(my wife) and I have made it a win/lose deal for a long time. We are learning about this stuff too... but NOT making it win/lose sure seems to be helping.
last thing. Filtering your thoughts through another woman before you talk to your wife. Might seem like a harmless, and even helpful, thing to do. I think a better way would be to learn how to communicate with your wife. Talking to her directly without anyone elses influence ensures she gets the absolute truth from you. Just something to think about, but I can imagine scenarios where you filter something through kristen and the message changes a little to become something not so real. Not really you. Just learn to have tact with your wife. You can learn that. You can learn to communicate the way she likes and needs.
Anyway, I hope I have given you some things to consider, and maybe I have helped.
Take care of yourself. Please point out the bad advice so I can correct my approach here. I do not want to be giving anti-MB advice. Thanks in advance for taking the time to do this.
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How about everyone evaluating and perfecting their OWN posting style rather than critiquing others!
Tactfully, tastefully disagree about suggestions, advice, concepts and theories but PLEASE refrain from "calling on the carpet" others posters for their opinions.
Now lets get back to Marriage Building!!!!!
JustUss
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frozen, do you not feel they deserved a little regard for taking the time and effort to respond to his thread? I don't think it is truly giving if you are giving with expectation on the part of the receiver. I do appreciate posters who take the time to help me learn and grow. Again, perhaps some different posting styles reach some more quickly than others. I also appreciate those who have shown patience with me in trying to help me learn and grow.
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patriot, I find this tack to be a distraction and have no intention of proofreading your "advice." My issue is a hostile call out thread targeted towards other posters who were giving MB advice. THAT is completely out of line.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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frozen, do you not feel they deserved a little regard for taking the time and effort to respond to his thread? I don't think it is truly giving if you are giving with expectation on the part of the receiver. That is a shabby excuse for trashy bad manners, frozen, and does nothing to address my points. I think simple common decency dictates something a little more appropriate than an insult when someone tries to help. Of course Bob and Mulan did not expect anything in return, but I don't think they deserved to be insulted, do you?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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You called me a moron. I was honestly wanting to fix whatever bad advice I was giving. I think making sure I give good advice around here is just what the Dr. ordered... so that I might be able to help someone else. I understand you are frustrated with the 'call out thread', though I didn't see it as one. That aside, becasue we could go on for days on that, I seriously would like you to help me with the post so the ideas I am pitching are not against MB.
It is a request, and you can fully tell me to p*ss off.
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