Well, discussions I've been having on other threads has prompted me to write and talk about something...<P>I've been struggling daily with the fact that I'm not in love with my wife. We're making great progress in our relationship. I'm able to open up about my feelings, and we have much better communication. We enjoy our time together. We have great sex now. Love units should be pouring in right? So how come I don't actually feel love? How come I don't have that emotional bond that I so desperately want?? How the hell long is this gonna take?<P>Monday night, I wept in my wife's arms because of the depression and frustration of it all. This truly sucks! I want to feel something more for my wife than just really good friendship. I want to KNOW that she's the right one to spend the rest of my life with. I know I have to give it more time. It's only been perhaps four months or so since it was broken off with the OW. But when do you say "This will never happen for me?" Is it possible that maybe my wife just isn't the one? Do you all think that fulfilling emotional needs is all it takes? Or is there something more? Something intangible?<P>I have no idea. I'm still hoping. I still haven't given up. But I'm very bleak about my prospects right now... <sigh><P>--andy

andy<BR>You have been working so hard at this. Could you be trying too hard?<BR>Is there any way that you can relax a little and let things flow.<BR>One of the biggest hurdles is seeing what we do feel and mot what we don't.<BR>Sometimes the process is so slow that we don't notice the progress.<BR>Have you ever tried writing down every little time that you feel happiness when with your wife? I did this and do those baby steps ever stick out when you take the time to notice them.<BR>I am so sorry you're having such a tough time. Be a little easy on yourself.<BR>Remember:<BR>"Happiness is wanting what we have not having what we want."<BR>Try to lower the expectations for a while and bask in the good things - no matter how little.<BR>

Andy,<P>I feel pain in your post and I read in another post about you weeping in your wife's arms. I am so sorry the two of you are going through this pain. It is intense as many of us know.<P>My husband too is having a hard time with the loving me correctly thing. So far he is not swept off his feet by that emotion by any means. But, and this is a big but, we are getting closer all the time. He is realizing what mature love is about. About love being a choice. That the newness of love is something that comes around once a relationship. (Remember what Harley & many other authors say about it!)<P>He is now here not just for our daughter but because he loves me too. Seven months ago he couldn't say that. Every day gets better although we do have our bad days. Like yesterday. He still uses substances to escape a bit in my opinion. I am leaving all that up to God.<P>Keep praying for those feelings. They will come. Keep praying also for God to destroy your feelings for the OW. Not until you feel nothing for her will you be able to feel that way for your wife.<P>That is my opinion anyway. My husband doesn't say that prayer often enough in my way of thinking but, he has said it.<P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

It's not gonna be, "BOOM! I'm totally in love again." Give it time. With both of you showing love and caring for each other, it'lll come back slowly but surly.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A> <BR>

Andy,<BR>What do you want to happen to you? Do you want to feel like you did when you first met your wife? Do you want fireworks to go off? All that would be great, but we are in a different stage of life now. I know that my H loves differently then I do. Once he questioned the way he acted and felt because I am totally different, so over board, so visual, sometimes I even think smothering. When I asked him if I was too much for him, he said, "No, I can handle it" LOL. When he thought he might loose me because of what he had done, he found that he loved me just as much, only showed it differently, and that's OK! He then quit questioning himself. I think you are having withdrawl from your bad brain period, you are confussed about feelings that you have never had before, You seem to be getting it on with your wife, I don't think you would be as loving as you say if you weren't in Love. Course, I may be wrong, I have trouble understanding men, I am in a love mood myself because my marriage is new, different, stronger, and I am so happy. If you convey to your wife that you are having these feelings it will work on her mind and she will have a hard time helping you to get through this period. It would be better to relax, let the feelings grow, know that you decided to stay with her, picture the future with her, how she has taken care of you and what is down the raod that only you and your W will be able to get through together.<BR>Almost <P>----------<BR>TIME <BR>

double post!<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited September 29, 1999).]

Hi Andy. I hear ya, man. I'm in the same boat. I'm so ashamed of it too. This man has loved me thru something that stripped him of his ego, pride, self-worth ... and who knows WHAT else.<P>I give nothing back. I'm there physically, holding the family as one unit ... but I don't WANT to spend time with him, don't WANT to be intimate with him, don't WANT to talk to him about anything.<P>We never HAD a friendship, so I don't even feel that for him. I'm existing in the marriage because God wants me here, because I don't want to rock my kids' worlds .... everyday I dream of being alone.<P>I ponder aloud if it's truly because I haven't forgiven myself for this horrible thing I did. If i don't like myself, how can I allow anyone else to like me?<P>But that doesn't explain the relationship I had with the OM .... I couldn't believe I was in the middle of an affair that I knew was wrong .... but our friendship, our emotional connection was intense ... like nothing I've experienced.<P>I, like you, long for that with my H ... but haven't a CLUE how to get there from here.<P>I agree .... HOW LONG? A lifetime? I cry at the thought that 20 years from now I could very possibly be just as I am now. Existing. I married him for better or worse. I screwed up badly last year, and I don't plan on doing that again. But I feel like I'm dying in the marriage.<P>

Andy, those feelings that you miss deeply are something that I miss too. The relationship has changed for us. That passion and intimacy are not natural feelings for us any more. I guess I am learning to accept that. I know my husband hasn't been meeting ALL of my emotional needs, and hasn't even been willing to do so, but I think even if he was that the certain magic we had won't be there.<P>I think I am very angry with him about this, as well. He says it is all in my head, because he "never cheated". Regardless, something is missing - and I want it back!!!<P>But the self discovery I have experienced and the new love and respect that I have found for myself - is something that isn't dependent upon our relationship, isn't dependent on whether he is faithful or not, isn't dependent on anyone but me. This - no one can steal, no one can destroy, no one can take away from me. It is a new emotion, a self love that takes the place of the magic that my husband and I once shared.<P>I think I may have more grieving to do? Or something, because when we have sex, afterwards I feel so emotionally raw. I'm pretty good at controlling my emotions until that point. Then I have to start teaching myself how to control this also. It is hard. It isn't fair. Life isn't fair, it is what we do with the hand we are dealt.<P>This passion or magic is not to be confused for the "in love" feeling I feel for my husband. Sometimes my eyes and my smile drips with adoration for my husband. The feeling that I have for my husband isn't the same. It is a different feeling now.<P>Love is an action, and not a feeling. So, I love my husband. But the feelings for him come and go. The magic isn't there, and I miss it terribly.<P>

I bet if you went around and asked everyone in your office if they feel "in love" with their spouse they would say no...unless they were lying to you. I think because of the things that we've all been through lately we question everything.<P>I ask my husband all the time if he feels in love with me and he admits he loves me, but those feelings only happen at the beginning. The difference between my husband and I is that he can accept that whereas I don't want to. My head understands this concept...it's just tough convincing my heart.<P>I read somewhere that everytime you get even an incling (sp?) of love feelings for your spouse that you should tell them. I was looking at my husband the other day load plants into our truck and I thought he looked really hot...I told him. Even though this was just a fleeting thought...it kind of confirmed to me that every once in a while I could get a momintary feeling for him...even though those feelings are far and few between.<P>I don't know if there is something more out there. I think you really have to look back at why you married your wife in the first place...there has to be some good reason, some feeling that was there for her. <P>You said that when you were first married you never used to analyze yourself so much (in so many words). Were you happy with your wife then? Maybe you could stop analyzing everything so much and figure out if she can make you happy even if you don't get those "feelings" Because they won't last forever with anyone.

It's not like I want that "in-love" fireworks feeling (it would be nice, but I'm not looking for that). I'd be happy to feel that "mature" love! I want to feel that. Hell, I want to feel anything! Something! Something besides the good-friendship feeling I have now.<P>Even in a mature love there are certain things you feel for a person, right? You feel glad they're around. You miss them when they are gone. You feel that twinge of jealousy (however minor) if someone flirts with them... I don't have those feelings with my wife.<P>I never had that big explosive love for my wife when we were first dating. Shouldn't there be something to start with?? (btw, if you want more details about my life, read my thread "to hurtingwife", we've been discussing this stuff). <P>Like Maya, I am terrified that in 20 years I'll still feel the very same way. For the rest of my life I'll have to completely avoid having friendships with women because I could potentially fall in love with them. That ain't right!!<P>Last night my wife and I made love, and it was good, but afterwards I felt bad. I felt bad because she seemed so content and loving... arrgh!!<P>--andy

Airheart and Maya, (and others) I may be getting ready for a stoning but.... Based on the many books I have read now about affairs and relationships, I truly believe the "in-love feeling" is mostly infatuation that most couples experience when they first meet. It's the chemistry/spark and attraction when you first are getting to know someone new and experience them physically and companionship wise in life. In my analogy, I think of it as when we get something material that is new (like kids with toys). There is always that initial rush/excitement when we get new furniture, house, electronics, etc... But over time that fades and we settle into a comfort zone of still liking that item or we no longer need it. Relationships that lead to marriage have moved from that passionate infatuation stage into mature/married love usually sometime after the marriage (within 2 yrs) or before the marriage, but the partners still have all those memories. In the book "To Love and Be Loved" by Sam Keen, he states memories and past history is one of the elements of true love you establish with someone. I don't know if either one of you had that type of passion for your spouses in the beginning. True love and the type of love that will sustain a a marriage is different than that "in-love infatuation". I am starting to believe though that a couple has to have that in their past. There is that underlying passion that is still there that will come up when for instance there has been many love units deposited or situations have led a couple to tap into that again. But the fact that as married couples we all have to deal with life (work, kids, money, other responsibilities) it makes it difficult to always feel that passion. Love is a verb, it is behavior driven and not just a feeling. Again this is based on my reading and my opinions. I unfortunately am dealing with my wife not having felt that passion in our courtship towards me...and that is what she is basing her decision to not work on our marriage on. I call it the 7-UP feeling, (never had it never will). I told her early in her affair that we could work on our marriage and cultivate a form of love/passion based on emotional needs, but that it would not compare to the feelings for the OM. <BR>I think we all have to accept that those infatuation feelings will always be stronger more intense than what we had in our marriage (I think that's natural/nature). That relationship has none of the built up issues our marriages have, they can talk about everything that married couples have already done before. The affair couples have many things to learn and experience with each other, though I still think it will crash once the passion is reduced and reality of what their affair has done to others (lies, deceit, dishonesty, pain) pressures them to work on their relationship which is usually not based on more than that passion. Well any thoughts .... I think you guys have to give yourself more time to not have those feelings for the OP. The withdrawal phase sucks for all involved and I have been told it is at least 6 months, if there was any amount of intense emotional attachment. It will start to fade, then you guys have to decide to work on marriage, understanding that high of affair is not what marriage is about, or be free to experience those highs with others though that too will fade and you can repeat the marriage thing or seek more highs.

Heard a couple of really good things this week. They stuck with me, as I'm going through the same thing as you, Andy. <BR> <P>1) Right actions produce right feelings. <BR> <BR> I take that to mean that if I act as though I love him, I will eventually FEEL love for him.<P>2) We fall in love with the thing that we focus the most on. <P> I think I believe that one. ALL my focus was on the OM. Even now, while I'm supposed to be building this marriage, I find myself still thinking about him. <P>I used to think this was a battle of my heart, but now I think it's a battle of the will and the mind.<P>I do see slow progress but sure do wish I could experience the spark that made that affair so damned appealing.

Well, it's been more than 6 months for ME ... it's been over a year. The intenseness of the withdrawal has faded, but at times (like today) it's overpowering again.<P>I know ... just hang on. Well, I'm hanging alright .... like you, airheart, I just wanna FEEL something .... desire to be with him, desire, to make love to him, desire to communicate with him, desire to spend time with him.<P>Yeah, airheart, my H seemed very content too. That's painful for me ... because in effect he has gotten what he wanted. He wanted me to stay and be his wife, and here I am. Sure he's happy now. And I'm all closed up, not communicating, suffering in silence because I can't stand the thought of hurting him any more.<P>I don't wanna tell him that I STILL miss the OM and his friendship. ([censored] that he is) <BR>And so I just exist. No it's not the right attitude, and I'm suppose to be DOING something about this .... but I cannot figure out WHAT to do.<BR>

maya, interested in your opinion if you think your husband has changed since the affair or changed your environment that led to your affair? I know you have said he has been great and stood by you, but I am not sure if you feel he has met your needs or maybe you are not letting him meet those needs. (I read your thread about you having issues ) I also understand your affair did not die naturally and did not last long? Is it possible the big what if? is rearing it's head? Maybe since you did not get to experience it longer or did not get some closure? I think you chose to give it up to work on your marriage? You answered one of my threads about exposing the affair, being the pressure that led you to stop. Food for thought.

<P>** if you think your husband has changed since the affair or changed your environment that led to your affair?<P>His attitude has changed emensely, but I see him falling back into "habits" now that he's comfortable in the marriage again. I can't expect him to do handstands for me the rest of his life -- especially when he's getting nothing in return, except having his wife there.<P><BR>** I know you have said he has been great and stood by you, but I am not sure if you feel he has met your needs or maybe you are not letting him meet those needs. <P>No, there is still something missing, which is why I still mourn the loss of OM ... he filled those needs completely. Maybe I am unwilling to let H fill those needs. He never has, and I don't feel like he ever CAN. They are two different men with two different approaches to women.<P>** I also understand your affair did not die naturally and did not last long? Is it possible the big what if? is rearing it's head?<P>Not sure what you mean about rearing it's head again. The OM is in another state now and has been thru a couple more women -- all while still being legally married (they are in the process of divorcing) There's no chance that he'll come back for me since I "made" my choice.<P>**Maybe since you did not get to experience it longer or did not get some closure? I think you chose to give it up to work on your marriage? <P>No, I didn't give it up to work on my marriage. I felt my marriage was irrepairable. I stayed because I felt God wanted me to.<P>**You answered one of my threads about exposing the affair, being the pressure that led you to stop.<P>The pressure from my friends I felt was God assisting in showing me what HE had in mind. I'm very concerned about what others feel, and I foolishly listened to my "righteous" friends that said possibly I wasn't even SAVED if I was choosing the route of divorce. (some friends, huh?)<P><p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 29, 1999).]

Andy,<P>When I made my first post to marriage builders, it was a cry for help because I felt the same way you do now. I had ended my affair and gotten away from OM (everything I was supposed to do), yet a year later- still no feelings for my H. I stayed for my children. <P>In that first post, I admitted that something huge was missing in my marriage, and that I was afraid of my friendships with other men, for fear I could so easily fall in love with someone else. Of course, I was trashed all over the place for admitting that. But it was honest. <P>It's been a little more than a year for me since I've seen OM and I still miss him on some days- and some days I don't think of him at all. I try every day to look for things in H to get back some feelings besides 'loving him like a brother'. Sometimes its there, but for the most part, I have to act. I have a hard time kissing him still, and I hate that about myself. We just don't have the same emotional bond that I had with OM, and once you've had it with someone, you don't want to settle for anything less. Since H and I were never emotionally intimate with each other, I was bowled over by the feelings I had with OM. I dream of having this type of relationship with H, but I've come to believe that not everyone is capable of that. I could be wrong, I don't know. I think it's awfully lonely to be in this type of marriage, and that's why I comb these pages every day... searching for the answer, some light at the end of the tunnel. <P>I hope no one gets upset about this post, I am just trying to be honest.<P> tamis<BR>

Thanks, Tamis. You said my feelings over and over and over and over.<P>**I have a hard time kissing him still, and I hate that about myself. We just don't have the same emotional bond that I had with OM, and once you've had it with someone, you don't want to settle for anything less. Since H and I were never emotionally intimate with each other, I was bowled over by the feelings I had with OM. I dream of having this type of relationship with H, but I've come to believe that not everyone is capable of that. I could be wrong, I don't know. I think it's awfully lonely to be in this type of marriage....**<P>You expressed what I've been trying to say. It's very lonely.<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 29, 1999).]

maya,<P>For a whole year, I walked around thinking I was the only person who had ever been through this. My OM was from my job, and after everything came out to our spouses, OM's wife made sure everyone at work knew. I felt like I had a scarlett letter on my forehead, with all of the stares and gossip. For some reason, most people didn't think less of OM- they painted me as the pursuer. I was even told by one co-worker that of course ANY man would not be able to say no to a woman waving her crotch in his face. AS IF that is how it went. Anyway, having all of these people know what happened made me feel so alone and ashamed. BUT, now that I have found this place, and found people who have felt all of these same feelings, I'm actually picking my ego and self-esteem off of the floor. I'm not alone, I'm not the only one, and its so wonderful to realize that. Thanks to you too, as I always identify with what you are going through.<BR> tamis<BR>

Tamis, can we e-mail?<BR>

Sorina,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>1) Right actions produce right feelings. <P>I take that to mean that if I act as though I love him, I will eventually FEEL love for him.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I can't quite make myself believe that's true. That means, then, that if I fake it with anyone, that I'll eventually fall in love with them... No. There has to be something deeper. Something there at the very beginning that connects you. You can't just fall in love with any ole person that comes around...<P>Again, let me stress that I fully realize that the "in-love" feeling is only around for so long, then it turns into a mature love. Hey, I'm cool with that really! But what if (big IF here) you never had that "in-love" feeling to begin with?!? Is it still possible?<P>Maya, you are right. It can be so lonely.<P>--andy<P>

I can't tell you how many people have told me to act "as if"..... I can't fake ANYTHING ... well I have been able to fake .... er ... um ..... (that's another therapy session)<P>But to fake enjoying someone's company, enjoying someone's touch ... I cannot do that ... absolutely cannot.<P>

Eeeek .... double post!<p>[This message has been edited by Maya (edited September 29, 1999).]

Gee whiz, this is depressing.<P>This makes me think that Harley is right in HNHN, that the straying spouse is always in love with the other person.<P>And if that's true, well, why the heck bother? <P>I'm not judging any of you, but it sure must be hard on your spouses. I'm not sure I could live forever with that; knowing I was "second best."<P>There seems to be a common thread here -- that none of you ever really had that "spark" with your spouse. Do you think that would have made a difference, if you HAD had that early on?

Yup, it's gotta be hard on the spouses. That's why I don't share these feelings with my H. I cannot bear to hurt him anymore. I just figure I'll "get over it" someday.<BR>

Hi guys,<BR>Airheart, I was thinking about you after reading about how you were crying in your wifes arms and I was going to try to paint a picture for you. I don't think I will now after reading this thread. I cannot tell you how sad I am right now reading this. I am not here to throw darts at you by any means. This just goes to show you how much hope people put into reconcilliation. You can't help how you feel, and you can't be blamed for wanting more in your life. It is probably niaeve(?) to think couples can actually go back after such an exciting time as the in-love awakening. Even if it was based on alot of false expectations, it still happened and the feelings, the all important feelings got to be aroused. <BR>Even as I watch my house being sold and my wife starting to live her new life separate from me, I was still holding on to a little hope that she would come back but really how could she? Based on what you are feeling all your marriages were the lie... and mine too. I feel sorry for all of us here, the pain is something that we will all live with the rest of our lives. One of the byproducts of this beast called infidelity. You guys know feelings you have never felt before or ressurrected feelings that have been gone and now are living with that knowledge. I have to live with the knowledge that I was never the right one even though I thought I was for the longest time.<BR>I am so sorry you all are feeling this way, I wish we could all go back and do it differently. People change, it's too bad thier marriages don't change along with them.<BR>Again I know you can't change the way you feel...... I just needed to ramble....<BR>Michael

Maya<P>My wife has many the same feelings that you do. The other man was already living with another women while he was telling my wife how much he loved her. She still misses him. This is not easy for me to hear, but at least I know where I stand. I wish I had some words of comfort for you. <P>I'm off to round 2 with the mediator this afternoon.<P>Tom

Dazed - I do share this with my spouse. Sometimes the tears are too hard to hide. It is like he doesn't know what to do about it. I tell him, we need total honesty in our relationship. We can't hide any secrets from the past, because it is being held between us - it is keeping us from that intimacy...... Oh, well - he says I'm crazy.<P>Great for the healing, ya know?<P>But anyways, we DID have that passion. I wouldn't miss it if I never had it, but we had it. <P>I'm glad I had it. I'm sorry it's gone.

It is depressing...I'm scared I will always be in love with the OM! I actually just called him and let the phone ring only 3 times and then hung up. My hands were shaking uncontrolably when I hung up...just like a drug addict going through withdrawls.<P>I was saying to my husband last night that if I wasn't married it wouldn't be that hard to get over the OM because I know that I would be able to find that "in love" feeling with someone else. But since I'm married now I have to grow up, be mature, and make love a decision not a feeling.<P>I've been dumped by guys before...and, yeah, sure it hurts, but it's always been easier to get over them when I knew another guy could be just around the corner. Shallow of me, huh!<P>Tamis--<BR>I too am looking for some magical answer on this forum. I'm hoping that one day I'll read something that will smack me across the face and make me say, "oh, I get it now"!!<P>I also agree with you about being afraid to have friendships with other men for fear of falling in love. I guess I fall in love too easily...especially when people admire me. There's actually another guy, besides the OM, who was just recently saying to me how dissapointed he was when he found out I was married and another guy who gave me his own private line if I ever wanted to call him at home and his wife would never find out.

I don't think I ever went through much of an infatuation phase with my husband - I was attracted to him, obviously, and he very soon became my best friend. I don't recall ever feeling really "bowled over" or any of the similar feelings recounted here. But I remember very clearly realizing that I loved him - it was a feeling of overwhelming peace. Izzy, obviously I don't think that infatuation stage is necessary - I still love my H very much, and he has been gone for seven months.<P>Maya,<BR>My H said once that if he came back, that I would be happy, implying that he would not. Perhaps he is resentful because he thought I always got the happiness I wanted. During his bouts of depression, which each have lasted at least a couple of years, he has been irritable and often mean. I have certainly not always been happy, but perhaps I just didn't require as much to be content. It is not that I had more to be happy about than he did, it is just that it took less to make me content. I am not sure if he is capable of being happy for very long.<BR>

d&c -- I think absolutely it would be different if I had those feelings at the beginning... Maybe possibly I never would've even strayed!!<P>I get so bummed when I think about all the pain I've caused my wife, and I think maybe it would've been better for her if we never got married. Then she would've had a chance to find someone who truly loved her with all his heart! <sigh><P>mkn -- please don't get depressed just cuz of a few of us! There are plenty of other success stories out there. And I don't plan on giving up yet. I don't know how long I'm willing to try, but I'm not giving up. I so much want to be a success story.<P>My wife knows exactly where I stand on everything. I'm still pretty amazed she's keeping me. She hates the "second-best" thing. Shoot...<P>--andy

Dazed: I am not still in love with the OP and it doesn't sound like too many on here are either. We are just in love with the affair. The feelings, emotions, attention, the whole thing. For many of us, like me, we thought that during the rebuilding of our marriages that we would be able to recreate the feeings we had with the OP's with our spouses(because we love them and want it to work out more than anything). But, as you have read, try as we might, none of us has been able to accomplish this. We think about the affair when we see lovers or happy couples or hear love songs. It makes us sad.<P>In my case, I am trying SO SO hard to accept that the man I married, and have been with for 27 years, is the one God wants me to be with. He is wonderful and I do love him so much. I would give ANYTHING to feel for him what I did for the OM though. I ache for that. My H knows all about my feelings. We discuss this a lot. There just doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it. Hope you don't hate me too much for being honest.

I do think it would have been easier to get the feelings back if H and I had an intimate emotional bond before the affair. (actually I'm fairly sure the affair would not have happened at all if that were the case). But since we did not ever have it, it just feels impossible. There is a saying "you don't know what you're missing" and that applies here. Before I had met OM, I didn't even know what an intimate friendship could be like. And after you know what you are missing, well- you miss it...<P>Maya, I'd love to e-mail- my address is **edit** <P>tamis

Hi Folks,<P>I have no idea if this will mean anything....I've been thinking of how it might be for my H (yeah, I know, I shouldn't speculate...just trying to understand!) and the lack of "something" within our marriage.<P>I know that the exceitement and variety of the lifestyle that he is into right now is the main attraction for him.<P>The way I see it there are three choices for him to make.....<P>1) Keep jumping from one relationship or activity to another whenever someone or something starts to smell of the routineness that he experienced with marriage and life.<P>2) Come back home and work on the marriage with me.<P>3) Take a good look and try to figure out what exactly is the missing ingredient to the unhappiness by eliminating the possibilities of what it could be.<P>What I mean by the 3rd is - maybe it's not your "spouse" per sey....maybe it's simply the routine of it all. Maybe it's the finality of the "fun of the chase". Perhaps it's something inside that needs to be released through fun and adventure with some mystery!!<P>It could be anything!!!<P>I know that I have sometimes felt a yearning for the above things : to have some CHANGE!!! The difference for me is that I want that change to be accompanied by my companion in life. I dated enough to know that - yeah, it could be a real ego booster and a varied amount of recreational and communicational moments that I might be missing now.....but that doesn't mean I can't make my own with H....does it?<P>Does this make any sense to you guys? I know that somewhere within my H he feels connected to me......he has said that in 10, 20 or 30 years he will want me to grow old with....he just needs to do this now!!! <P>I think it's pressure related....you know, the whole life and settled responsibilities of house, spouse, bills, etc. The regularity of it all.<P>Do you think I have anything with this thinking or am I totally off base - not looking for specifics for my H - just thoughts for general discussion with you who's shoes I have not walked in.<P>Any insight....either from or to me?<P>Thanks,<P>Hugs and I hope that you are led to what you seek!!<P>Sheba

Sheba,<P>For me, I was betrayed. I just think that perhaps when honesty returns that the passion can come back. <P>I feel like I am feeling very raw emotions after sex. The sex is wonderful, it is always wonderful, and it doesn't matter how much more exciting that can be. It is the raw emotional feeling afterwards that I feel such a sadness for - That part of the passion, the oneness. I feel like I have just had sex with every thought in his head after we have sex. It just hurts my feelings.<P>Otherwise, everything feels normal.

Hi everyone,<BR> As someone else said this is a pretty discouraging thread....but I'm glad everyone is being honest. My question is "why did you all marry if you weren't passionately in love?"Was it just friendship? <BR>It's strange , but my H said that he never felt those feelings for me but I KNOW in fact that he did...I was there. In fact he was more passionate than me and pusued me....we were definitely head over heels. In our case, the history has been "rewritten" . (I'm not saying that's anyone's else's case just ours).....Lu

Hello everyone...<P>I'm different because my H and I married after meeting six to seven WEEKS before... yup, folks, it was a blind date and we ran off around seven weeks later and tied the knot!<P>I was passionately in love for seven years, and when he cheated I thought I'd lost it. Nope ... back it came and same for him (ask him, I don't lie). I felt passionately until about two years ago, and totally hopeless last year as I neared my 40th birthday. Mid-life crisis and I did the unthinkable - I then cheated.<P>Now, I am very slowly finding the love that was lost. Every so often I get that surge of electrcity when I look at him. He is SO gorgeous, always has been. He's having a harder time loving me the way he'd like, but the love is still there on both sides. <P>I say it IS POSSIBLE to find that love again. Getting over the OM was tough, honestly, but it has happened. Luckily the OM did something very selfish last week that opened my eyes for the last and final time. I suddenly realized that I DON'T WANT HIM no matter what happens with my H. And I'm hoping that my H and I grow old and grey(er) together <P>------------------<BR>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<BR>

Sheba,<P>I've thought about that, and I truly don't believe it's wanderlust for me. Heck, I want the kind of long lasting "grow-old-with-you" kind of relationship! It was never about the "fun-of-the-chase" for me. In fact, getting into an affair was the last thing I wanted to do, and I was depressed all the way through it, cuz I knew I would most likely end up with a broken heart.<P>Lu -- I've thought about your suggestion too. Could it be that I just don't remember correctly? But no. I remember how I felt back then... Check out my thread "to hurtingwife"... It pretty much describes my life story... <P>--andy<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited September 29, 1999).]

WOW, I appreciate all the honesty you are all talking about regarding feelings. I really am starting to feel that way about my potential for recovery in my marriage. Airheart, maybe Maya, I think it is hard to even get that passion those feelings back with your spouse if they were not there in the beginning. My wife is telling me that, and I actually remember that feeling (of not getting that passion towards me). My only question now is if the feelings one has towards an affairee are actually more intense because of the ?illicitness, deceit, forbideen?, type of situation that breeds those feelings. You know it's possible some people seek that type of rush, or when they find it can't forget what it felt like. I have never gone skydiving, but they say that it is a rush to experience. I personally am too scared to try that. So those type of intense emotions probably have no place in a marriage. So what to do? I guess your spouses have to decide if how you feel will be enough for them (personally, I don't think I want my wife back based on this discussion) and you have to decide if you can live 'comfortably' and be reasonably happily married. Does that make sense? I noticed a couple of betrayed people do remember that passion in the beginning, and again I say it appears to be important to a marriage. "Private Lies" by Pittman, talks about that passion that leads to married love. I feel sad and bad for airheart and Maya trying to feel emotions that may have never really been there before. Maya, if it has been a year, I am not sure if you have gone to counseling? Has a therapist said anything about how to deal with that realization. I hate divorce (especially with kids) but we all owe ourselves happiness and our spouses deserve to be "first" and not second best. At least that's the way I am feeling today, even though I don't believe the OM for my wife is her true love either. They say affairs teach you something about your marriage and there are times it says, "Well, you both need to be available for true love to find you" since the first time either one married for the wrong reasons. Mine married for the type of spouse potential I was, but did not include the passionate love aspect.

Hi again,<BR> I know this is crazy (YES, I do believe I'm crazy!) but I was wondering if those who don't feel anything for their spouse would be jealous if someone else wanted them or maybe if THEIR SPOUSE had the affair? I've felt such jealousy and love for my H in a way I hadn't for such a long time because I almost lost him to someone else ...but he knows I've always been here for him . Does this make sense.? I know this sounds crazy but it's like in High school when what you can't have you want and what you have is "ho hum"..I remember a post awhile back and I think it was from Maya where someone she knew came back to the marriage as the other person was moving on and starting to date..Just rambling and definitely not coming up with solutions!!! Lu

By god Andy, are you sure your name isn't ------ ? I wish you could talk to my H. He is struggling so hard as he feels no-one understands where he is. See, you describe all the things he says. He is so sad that I have told him I can't be friends with him if he leaves and never comes back, because of my feelings for him, it would destroy me everytime I saw him. He feels sad, because we are friends, and he would miss that. But, the more counselling he has (individually), the more he seems to realise that he has just never had that connection with me. He feels it with so many other women.... not just the "in-love" feeling he has had for his 2 most special ones, but a feeling like they come from the same place, an understanding and appreciation of life in the same way..... something that he has never felt with me. When he is with them, he feels nothing missing, nothing that makes him want to be with someone else, because they connect with the real him. We were married quite young, and I was the only one he had ever felt really close to then, but over time, when he got to know others, even in a friendly sort of way, he realised that we were completely different people .... neither one better or worse than the other, just different, and that he wanted a relationship for life with someone who he connected to in the first instance, not just romantic love. He has spent years being frustrated with me over so many things, I have been so confused about his responses, and tried to change, but it seems to be our fundamental differences that are at the root of all the anger, frustration and his need to seek out emotional support elsewhere. Not that I couldn't give it, but just that he needed it in a way that was just right for him, and my way just wasn't. But that my way probably was for someone else.<P>His big mistake was pretending to me for so many years that everything was ok, and whenever things weren't, not identifying the real reasons behind his frustrations. He continued to lie to me, not just about the OW and what they made him feel, but about his lack of feeling connected to me in some intrinsic way. He continued to perpetrate the myth that he loved me and his life with me, by writing and saying beautiful things, but underneath, was so sad, depressed and crying out in pain because we seemed to be struggling to meet each other, and missing. I therefore continued to love him, and still do, and the pain for me now is unbearable. I could go on and on.....but guess people here don't want to hear all this.<P>Because of all this, even though his relationship with the OW is a deadend, they are still kind of emotionally involved, I guess she just understands where he is at..... he knows that although he want her, if she is not avaliable, there is probably someone else much more right for him than me out there somewhere. And that the daily struggle in life with me was not worth staying.<P>This just hurts me so badly, but I have to try somehow to accept this, I guess. My anger comes from him letting me believe all these years that he really truly loved me, then finding my life rewritten over the past 6 months, with revelations about other women, missing feelings, things said that weren't mean't etc. He never told me the truth about his feelings, although I see now so many things were a cry for me to somehow understand, without him having to identify and explain. He is a good and loving man, with so much to give, I just want him to share it with me, but, like he has decided - I'm a really nice person, but maybe just not right for him. The trouble is, I gave all my love to him, as I think he is a fabulous person, and don't know how to stop that after so many years. Andy, I would love to talk to you some more, but have taken too much space already. emailing you would probably make your wife feel too uncomfortable I guess? even if she read everything? let me know .....I will be away for a few days, but back after the weekend. Sometimes I feel like maybe I might be able to understand all this, coming from you, because often we can't see things which are right in front of us, because they cause us too much pain to confront. <BR>I just really want to understand all this, and reading this thread, my H could have written it instead of you. <P>Ps -I read your thread to hurting wife, and there was not one thing that you said, that I haven't heard from my H recently. He feels so bad for hurting me, for denying me the chance to be with someone who really loves me ........ I am so confused, and hurting so badly about all this .... just trying to understand...... I know an affair was probably the last thing he wanted, he is a wonderful man, gentle and kind .... life is so sad and confusing....<p>[This message has been edited by sosad (edited September 29, 1999).]

this is a very hard thread for the betrayed (our worst nightmare) to read but thank you all so much for being so honest. Really appreciate it.<P>I know its probably all been said before, and Im probably just a slow learner ;-)<BR>(maybe even in these posts), but can you put into actual words again *exactly* what are the things you are missing or the spouse isnt doing? Are there actual "things" or not?<BR>are they the same "things or needs" as before your affair or have they changed? <BR>Does having an affair mean that marriage can never stack up against it?<P>I try so hard but after reading this thread wonder if theres things Im just not doing cos Ive never had an affair and just dont "know" <BR>thanks

I read this and it really got me thinking and questioning this "in love" thing.. My H is currently going through withdrawal and I know he may have some of the same feelings as most of you who are in withdrawal.. I got to thinking about my H and I when we first were together.. How much in love we were... How much we missed each other when we were away from each other etc. etc... So we did HAVE that... both of us... and my H is the betrayer in our situation, so I have been thinking about how do I feel about him?? Am I "in love" with him?? The answer is no.. not like the silly way we were when we were first together....Its like everyone else wrote.. Its a mature love... I love him because of many reasons, but it is a choice and a commitment.. I am wondering how most of you felt about your spouses before your affair.. Did you feel love for them then and it has went away since you found someone new? Or didnt you not have any feelings for love for your spouses thats why you had the affair.. For those that did have some loving feelings for your spouse and got mixed up in the excitement of the affair, you are longing to have those "in love" feelings you had for your affairee, and because you dont, you think its wrong or it wont work..... I think the expectations are unrealistic... No one I know that has been married for a number of years ever has that romantic high for very long.. its just doesnt happen... I mean.... I dont think I feel any differently toward my husband than he does me... What kind of love we have for each other is normal... but the difference is ... his brain is all wacked out because of his affair...he compares the high with her to life with me... I must seem boring to him,,, and believe me,,, I am not boring at all.. its the mask of withdrawal.... I will guarantee, if he left me, in time he will be feeling the exact same way about her than he does about me... ''''that is the ordinariness of real life.... Like someone else posted.. You know how exciting something new is when you buy it and after a while its not that big of a deal anymore.. thats the way we all are... We all expect there is more to life than just everyday living... some of us get it and accept it and are happy in that others cant accept it and look for happiness elseware, whether it be alcohol, drugs, affairs... I would wonder how you would all feel in a few years if you divorce your spouses and saw what life was like without them... I would be curious to know if you would then appreciate them more or not... Some would, and maybe some wouldnt... The grass really always does look greener on the other side....some of the most unhappy people I know are the ones that really never get that it isnt, and they go through life chasing the green grass and they never find it... and they never realized they have it right in front of them if they look hard enough... Happiness is in wanting what you have....

Hi Mickey,<BR> I have to say I agree with you.I feel alot of resentment towards my H because of him thinking there has to be "more" or something is missing.I feel like he may never be happy with me because of it. Harley seems to think, however, that you CAN recapture that romantic in love feeling if you make enough love bank deposits...what do you think?<BR> I would like to hear from K on this....<BR>K, what do you think, is it only a matter of love deposits , how have things been with you and your W,does this stuff (MB) really work? Lu

Lu: I think I may agree that you may be able to recapture the love,, but I think it really takes a lot of work.... on both sides.. And I think sometimes people dont think you should have to work at it.. that it should just come to you.. I dont ever think my H will have the intensity with me now that he had with ow.. and that is just plain and simple....because we are at a different stage in our love than he was with ow... We had that stage...time for the other stages.. but I do think you can do, and try new and exciting things to get the spark back and not take each other for granted.... I am curious Lu... What finally did it for you H.? I mean what made him finally start to snap out of it... I am curious..because I think my H is finally starting to see clearer... I dont know what has done it for him... Maybe her moving a block away from us woke him up and made him realize what kind of person she really is... her true colors are starting to show ... just like Harley says...

mickey -- Hey, how's it going for you and Mike? I haven't heard from him in a while. So either he's not needing anyone to talk to or he's feeling way too depressed to talk to anybody (hope it's the first one!).<P>This thread has seemed to take on a life of it's own, hasn't it?! whew. I didn't think my original post would generate so much response. And I'm so sorry it's been discouraging to the betrayed's who have read it. I wasn't intending that when I posted. I was trying to work out my feelings and maybe see if someone could provide some insight.<P>Most of my feelings and thoughts are scattered throughout this thread and also in my other thread discussion with Hurtingwife. So I won't go over any of that again.<P>I just want to say that I am totally in agreement with the idea that "romantic love" grows into "mature love"... Yup, totally cool with that. But what if you never felt "romantic love"? My big question! What do the experts say about that?!? What would Dr. Harley's response be? Don't know.<P>I know many of you betrayed folks claim a "mature love" for your spouses. But when you found out about the infidelity, you were completely heart-broken! You felt betrayal and jealousy! Why? Well because you have that "loving" feeling, that's why! That's it! That's what I want. Right now, if I found out my wife had an affair, I couldn't say with any certainty that I'd be crushed. But dammit, I want that. I want a relationship that I'm afraid of losing.<P>--andy<BR>P.S. to sosad -- if you didn't see the other message, you're welcome to email me whenever you like. I discussed it with my wife, and she's fine with it. My email address is **edit**.<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited October 01, 1999).]

Yeah, this is pretty depressing. Makes me wonder if the wait will be worth it.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris

Hi Andy!! I am doing real good... So is Mike... I had been noticing some subtle changes in him over the past few weeks, actually right about the time we left for vacation and he told me about ow moving around the corner from us.. I saw some changes, for the better, but I dont really get my hopes up too much.. Then I get a letter from him the other night... Mike wrote to me and told me that he is starting to feel better about us, and is starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel.. He says he knows now that his future is with me.. Said "hang in there sweetheart" and always remember I love you.. He also said that I was being GREAT!!! So.. it was pretty encouraging.. I am wondering what has finally sunk in with him?? Just time, I dont know.. I do think that the ow moving really opened his eyes.. It was pretty selfish and mean of her to do something like that... Its terrible.. We both have to drive by her house everyday.. The counselor thinks she is psychopathic... anyhow... I dont know but I cant believe anyone would do such a thing... I have just tried to ignore it... Ok... now to your question about the Romantic Love... I dont know the answer... I do know that my H did have that for me and he told me he had it for me for a longggg time... Said the last 5 years were the best years of his life... H used to get a little jealous of guys etc.. and he was always very afraid of losing me... Then ow entered picture and it seemed all that went down the toilet.. Things changed overnight... literally.. it was unbelievable... So, I am hoping H can get those feelings back that he had before,,, but like I said he cant compare them to the intensity of the affair feeling because they wont be that intense, but they can be real good again.. I thinkk... Without getting to personal... the intimacy in the bedroom has been incredible...!! I mean.. Like better than it was at first.. We both have opened up a lot since this has happend and I think it has made for some spark and some excitement! We both are pretty happy about that... I think my H is at least using his head a little in trying to figure this out... He can weigh everything, and everytime he weighs it.. ow doesnt make sense for him to leave a good marriage, a beautiful home, great in-laws, freinds... basically his whole life in order to have some fun for a year and find out in the end that he exchanged relationships and lost a whole hell of a lot in doing so.. Hopefully the affair wont fool him..... Its weird Andy... When Mike left and went to live with ow.,, he told me several times that if he could pray about one thing, it would be that someday he would be lucky enough to have me back again... He told me I am the only one he ever wanted to be married to... over, and over and over.. He never did want to lose me, almost like he just wanted/needed a time out to have fun and then come back.. Now I know why many counselors and Dr.s call it temporary insanity.. One question for you.... Did you really never feel in love with your wife at first? Why did you marry her? I am just curious.... Also... if your wife met all your emotional needs, do you think you could be happy? What needs does she not meet?

mickey, hey it's great to hear that you guys are doing so well! I'm happy for you. And envious I guess. <P>I know what you mean about the bedroom aspect. We've gotten better in that area too. I'd say it's better than ever. I wish everything else would follow...<P>I think I'm probably thinking about stuff too much. I'm just gonna give it a rest I think. I'm tiring myself out worrying about it all the time. arrgh!<P>BTW, if you're really interested in my story (why I married my wife, etc), check out my thread "to hurtingwife". In the course of my discussions with her, I talked about all that stuff...<P>take it easy (and Mike too!),<BR>--andy

airheart, good point about your thoughts if your wife had an affair. My wife told me recently, she was wondering why it did not bother her alot (or felt jealousy) thinking about me with another woman. I also wonder if during the courtship/beginning of a relationship if one spouse does not have that romantic love feeling, how it affects them down the road. If you never had it back then, how can you get it now? Also, it sounds like the physical aspect can override your emotional feelings because physical sex can be just as fulfilling. I also have been told that how you fight or fought in the past says something about how much passion you feel towards each other. Does anyone agree? My wife and I rarely fought and I would say never passionately. I do not express my anger outwardly, and maybe if that passionate <BR>fighting is not involved it affects how you both relate intimately with each other.

Wow, izzy! Great thought about the fighting! My wife an I have never had any big passionate fights either. In fact, our councellor mentioned that right away. She said she noticed the lack of passion in our relationship throughout the years. Not just in our sexual or emotional connection, but also in our fighting...

Andy,<BR> I'm always interested in your posts because my H feels like you do as far as not being in love with me. It's only been 2 months since he saw the OW and 1 month since he talked to her. He tends to have an addictive type of personality about work, hobbies, OW, but never did with me. Funny thing is,I DON'T WANT THAT type of relationship. He doesn't know if he EVER had passion towards me. Don't you think some of those feelings have to do with one's age and maturity level at the time of the marriage? Maybe if you met your wife now you would have those strong, passionate, in love feelings for her???? Once you have an affair and experience those feelings, maybe you tend to compare that with what you think you should feel in your marriage. I don't know, I question all of this as well. How is your wife doing? Where is she finding the strength to hang in there? That certainly is a sign of dedication and deep love which I'm sure you're aware of. I would bet she deserves alot and can't imagine that in time you wouldn't have loving feelings for her for her dedication and love if nothing else. Good luck to you both and please keep giving her a chance with your patience and perseverence. I personally think it's best not to put a time limit on it, but truly can identify with the frustration, anxiety, and fears. My H and I are there too!<P>------------------<BR>

Hi jennifer,<P>I'm amazed that you got down this far in the thread... it's really getting long now!<P>I recognized long before I met the OW that I was not really happy, not really satistfied with my marriage relationship. I didn't really know what I was missing, but I knew I wasn't fully happy. I remember having discussions with my best friend about that. We used to commiserate together cuz he wasn't happy either (and in fact he went on to have an affair too).<P>My wife and I were discussing last night how we really felt about each other. She's not really sure about her love for me either. She says that she's been thinking about that for a while now. The reason she wonders is because, a few months before discovery, I told her that I didn't love her anymore and wasn't happy. She was sad, but she didn't really want to fight for the marriage or anything. She was ready to give up. It wasn't until she discovered that I was actually in love with someone else that she really lost it. And she thinks maybe it was the whole betrayal thing that hurt more than anything else, plus she felt like she was competing for me with someone else, and therefore she didn't want to lose me to another woman. So, we're both really thinking about the whole thing.<P>In the meantime, we're enjoying our company together (both alone and with our son). We try to do stuff together at least once a week (we're not getting the 15 hrs that Harley recommends, but that really sounds impossible to me!). We've always been able to get along and have always been good friends. Just never had that full-blown passion. I think my wife thinks like you do; that the full-blown passion isn't necessary, and in fact she doesn't care if we have it. I kinda want that, especiall since I never had it with her, and I know what it feels like. I want to know what it's like to be in a long term relationship where you started out with the passion. Ugh... I always end up not being able to correctly describe what I really want, and everyone tends to distill it down to "you want the affair love vs. the mature love"... that's not really it...<P>--andy<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited October 01, 1999).]

Man is this a train wreck or what. I struggle with my addition to the OW a lot, but what I struggle more with is trying again with my W. I’m still kind of young and I think I could find somebody else and tonight I couldn’t go home to my W and kids and I don’t want to.<P>I can’t stand the thought of hurting them 2 / 6 / 12 months down the road. Quite frankly I’ve played enough with this fix it stuff. I’ve begged God to make things good again and just stop the pain – but it doesn’t stop it just gets more and more intense. If I was suicidal it would be over for me already, but because I’m not I just want to be alone without having to fix what was broken years before I ever met the OW. My affair started right around our separation and somehow I thought I fit into this category. <P>And I do in a lot of ways, yet I don’t in that I wasn’t happy for years. I should’ve got a divorce after 1 kid, but instead had two more just to complicate things.<BR>I just want to be alone on a desert island somewhere with either the OW or a case of beer. I don’t think I’m going to be able to stick this thing out. Either w or w/o the OW (who has already moved on) I think I need to do the same thing.<P>I believe God will not let anyone endure more than can handle and quite frankly I can’t handle anymore. I cannot continue to bear the pain and agony I’ve been experiencing.<BR>

Okay, you all have just about convinced me to go ahead with the divorce. <P>I know we had passion for each other. And it actually lasted quite awhile. We were together for 5 years before getting married, and another 3 before having kids. That's when it started to change (big surprise, huh?) <P>But whatever the reason, he doesn't love me now. And I don't want to spend my life with someone who doesn't love me just because its 'comfortable'. <P>But here's a thought. When I first started plan A I was doing a million things for my H. Every day I thought, "what can I do for him today so he knows how much he is loved?" You know, I think I fell in love in my husband all over again. Perhaps its like they said, you fall in love with the thing you focus the most on. So stop focusing on yourself or the OP, and just try making your spouse happy for a change. They certainly deserve it. And you might find it works wonders on you, as well.

fighting indicates how much passion ????<P><BR>NOT!!!<P>

This thread scares me to death. I couldn't even read it all. Here I am fighting to keep the tears from flowing because I miss him so much and wondering how I will be able to make it if he doesn't come back. Then I read thhis. Now I am scared if he does come back I am not sure I could handle his lack of love or feelings for me. I couldn't take it knowing he really wanted to be with her. How can you take more pain. I've never hurt this bad before. Somewhere in this thread I don't remember who said doing plan a focusing on her S made her fall more in love with him, I think she is right. And that makes it hurt even more when they do leave. I have thought about the fact he would go through a withdrawal, I think I can handle that but what has been talked about on this thread I don't know It maybe just one pain to many. How can one deal with this?<P>------------------<BR>di<BR>

airheart, maybe we should just trade wives . I really do not think it's an issue about affair love and married love. But what you are saying is having that passion at the start makes a difference. It really seems to for the people that have posted, it's like a foundation for the marriage which makes it stronger, and allows the couple to go thru daily routine living knowing they can tap into that passion and connect if they really try (like it comes out in fights, or when both are reaaaalllly in the mood ). <P>"I didn't really know what I was missing, but I knew I wasn't fully happy. "<P>Also, another thought and feeling that my wife had right before her affair. She and I had also discussed (in the last 18 mths) this missing element in our marriage. BTW, Mrs Mush, I am talking about fights, disagreements, strong discussions, not angry out of control rage type. Just those discussions that bring out the emotions in us. I am not an emotional fighter so I know that is hard for me, thus my wife and I never (i think) had a strong passionate fight/discussion. I am also a conflict avoider so that could be another reason.<P>My wife and I have always felt we had a best friendship and have always communicated pretty good. I still feel that our conversations might not have clicked emotionally for her (maybe she did not feel that way or allow herself), even though we talked alot. That is probably why everyone has been shocked about our separation since the outward appearance was always happily married, but the behind bedroom door lack of passion/inlove desire was missing for her noone knew about (of course). Well.. lets keep this thread going...even if it is a little depressing I find it to have been the most honest and upfront all of us have been in a while (lets got off the sideshows).

Oh yeah BTW, I had been meaning to ask how many of you in marital recovery have done all the four guidelines to recovery as Dr Harley talks about in SAA book. Airheart, I do think those 15 hours (or close to) are important along with the protection and honesty guidelines. How have those aspects gone? I heard of a good idea for couples to have fun. Play Twister some night just the two of you . Wear appropriate clothing and maybe some fun mood music.

Hi Andy,<P>I don't know if you've been keeping up with my story but I've been reading your posts and your story sounds so much like my OM's. <P>I've told my family about the problems in my marriage and how serious things are. Even though I haven't revealed the affair, like I've said they've seen his blowups, jealousy for little reason and completely understand and are very supportive. I spoke to my Mom last night and she said "honey, listen to your heart, your heart won't steer you wrong". God, that killed me. I know she means well.<P>I've been having extreme difficulty working with OM, I think we're both driving eachother crazy. I sent him a nasty email and then confronted him with all the things he gave me and threw them back at him. I know, not very mature, I was asking for trouble. He in turn got nasty with me. I get so angry at everything. Before I left work yesterday I apologized and said "listen, we're both here to earn a living and we both deserve a pleasant working environment, I think we both know what we need from eachother in order to move on and we should both respect that." He was very upset because I wasn't acknowledging him at all, not even a goodmorning or goodnight, so I told him I would try those formalities to keep some peace. He inturn promised to try and not look at me and leave me alone. He said, with tears in his eyes, I had a 2 hour lunch with my Dad today, my dad finally releaved alot of what he was thinking but was hesitant to say that he feels even though the short term consequences of a divorce are very difficult that in the long term it would of been better to leave now. I was shocked his father said that, I just said I'm sorry and I can't hear these things and walked away.<P>What a mess.

Hi everyone,<P> This thread is getting so long, maybe we should start another. Anyway, food for thought...**edit** there is a chapter about making yourself HAPPY and she claims people who are happy with themselves and their life in general tend to have happy marriages....what do you think? I know in my H's case he was depressed ,not happy with his job ,felt like he was getting old, etc,and then bam.....the affair was a great "fix".....he said the same thing- that there was something "missing" in the marriage but I honestly think it had alot to do with HIM.....probably way off base again but trying so hard to understand! Lu

Lu--<P>You're so right! <P>I was a happy person before. Ever since I've moved I've been depressed and unhappy. I'm unhappy with my job and with my life in general...which in turn made my marriage miserable. I kept looking to the OM to fill a void that I was missing.<P>If I could just be happy with myself everything else could fall into place! It's not easy making yourself happy though!

izzy -- We've been trying our darnedest to keep up with the Harley guidlines. We've been honest and have tried like heck not to love-bust. I think we're doing a good job in those departments. The time thing... well 15 hours is very problematic. We might average 10 hrs a week. This is if we count the time we spend together after my son goes to bed. <P>hum -- yes I've been keeping up with your story. I think about your situation alot and I hope things work out for you. Your husband worries me... I know how similar my story is to your OM's. Which is why I've sympathized with him on some of your other threads. I've actually been not responding to you because I don't want to say anything wrong.<P>Lu -- You know, I wasn't really all that depressed with my life before the affair. In fact, things had never been better up until I met the OW. We own a nice house, I had a job that I liked alot, I have a great son... I wasn't depressed at all. The only thing I knew was that I just wasn't happy with my marital relationship. I felt that I just didn't love my wife.<P>well, probably noone is reading down this far anymore... This thread has gotten way too long, and I think it's depressing too many people to continue anyway...<P>--andy

Andy,<BR>The last I had read from you, you and your w had not taken the emotional needs questionaire. Sounds to me like you need to start the work! A friendship is a great place to start. Now start taking the questinaires and building a plan. Go to the articles section here and read the article on "Building a Plan to Avoid Conflict etc" Start doing something. I believe that this relationship stuff takes a whole lot more work than anyone ever told me. Good Luck! You and your w can make it and you will love each other if you lay the proper foundation.<BR>

Airheart,<P>OK, I’m trying to redeem myself after my last post. I’m only in the seventh week and I get to work with my OW. As I continue to share the same emotional roller-coaster you’re on – I invite you to reflect on the thoughts I have. In terms of why I stay in my marriage<P>1. I have three little children whom I love. Best case scenario, after a divorce I maybe able to see them ½ of there life, more likely 1/3. For me any choice I’m going to make to leave my marriage has to be real good – because I’d miss my kids a lot.<BR>2. One of our main issues was sex – in the past 7 weeks I’ve had sex more times than I can could and in more places I can count. Sex isn’t an issue anymore and it doesn’t sound like it is for you.<BR>3. I developed a lot of hate and anger for my wife not meeting my sexual/emotional needs for most of our marriage. Because I didn’t handle these issues maturely in the beginning – I developed indifference and hate towards her. I’m choosing now to try my hardest to redevelop the love we once shared and this time not mess it up.<BR>4. The OW – no matter how perfect, how beautiful, how loving is never going to live in the same house and me and my children – so in a sense that relationship has a big negative for me.<BR>5. I choose to love my W, get married, fall out of love, and start hating her and then to give my love to the OW. I now choose to take my love back and give it to my W – whom it belongs with.<BR>6. God has a great big heart. Even though I gave up on him to save my marriage and I gave up on him to take away the emotional hurt from leaving the OW – he can still help. Every time I get drawn to the OW or start thinking about her – I ask God to take away the hurt and not to replace it with hate – but indifference. I also try to get myself out of situations that I know will remind or cause me to miss the OW more (I messed up last Friday).<BR>7. When I’m old and on my death bed or young on my death bed I don’t want to deal with regrets. I don’t want to say hey I was married twice and the first one I messed up but boy I sure did good on the second one, especially if the only reason the first one didn’t work out was because of the OW. For me I cannot live with myself and I couldn’t ask my children to respect me if I ruined their life because I couldn’t go through some struggle to try to save my marriage. And when I say ruin I mean ruin, obviously there are exceptions in emotional or physical abuse situations but that’s not my case. If the OW is preventing me from making logical and sound decisions because of my emotional feelings then I say drop the OW.<BR>8. Finally even if I don’t ever feel “in-love” with my W again but am otherwise happy in our relationship that’s OK. Let be honest with ourselfs the OW certainly would’ve gotten old after a while – for me I don’t want to dump my W, marry the OW and find guess what I have the same feelings in the new relationship – because I think I almost certainly would.<BR>9. The last thing I would add is deceit – have you been deceived. For me another couple I knew went through the same thing I’m going through except they are now divorced, actually my OW also got divorced pretty much for the OM (not me). When I heard their story I was furious how could someone place such little importance on their marriage. But I was almost ready to justify my actions – but nothing changed and it is still a bad thing to do. For me I’ve chosen to work through our problems and if they can’t be resolved – say good-bye. But I now have motivation to do this because the OW is gone. If I had her waiting in the wings guess what I’d make up my mind in about 3 days to get a divorce cause I couldn’t reconcile with my W because I was deceived.<P>

Airheart,<BR>I am on the betrayed side of it all. And after reading your post and thinking about it for the last couple of days. I would think that you should set your wife free. You might not have those feelings that you try so hard to get for your wife but....I bet someone else would truly love your wife in the way she should be loved. If my husband had to struggle so hard to want to stay with me and love me (which might be the case I don't know) but rather than him lie and tell me how much he wants this marriage to work after a two year affair. I would really want to know if he felt the way you feel. That way rather than sink anymore years into this marriage I could move on to something so much better than someone who does not love me or needs to make such an effort to create love for me (like you explain). SET YOUR WIFE FREE!!!!! She will end up in a beautiful place with someone that will cherish every breath she takes. And set your self free as well you only live once go find what your looking for and stop holding your wife back. What goes around comes around and I suspect that she has a lot of good to come from what she has gone through with all of this part of her life. The truth is what will set you free!!!! Let me repeat myself one more time. There is someone out there for your wife that would really want every inch of her she should get her chance rather than waisting precious time caught up in your struggle.

So Airheart,<BR>How would the above suggestion make you feel? I don't know if I agree with it or not, Guess that's not the point,but I wonder what emotions you would feel knowing that some other man loved your wife. Sometimes when I am feeling indifferent towards my husband, I imagine the other women that would want him. It puts things into perspective for me. Would you believe that the wife of the man I had my affair with was flirting hot and heavy with him, long before her husband and I ever even thought of having an affair? Used to infuriate me. Ironic isn't it? Anyway, something to think about.

Willy -- sounds like you've come a long way! I congratulate with you, and I happen to agree with almost everything you said!<P>KWAS -- Well, she doesn't WANT me to set her free. She wants to work on this. If I go to her and say "I'm setting you free. Go find someone who will truly love you." That would sound SO MUCH like a cop out to her. Plus there is the matter of my son. Don't you think we both owe it to him to try to make things right?<P>--andy

andy,<P>Don't get mad...

andy,<P>This began as the dreaded double post!!! Egad...<P>Anyway, andy... thing is this. It breaks my heart that you don't love your W like you want to... now how can that be accomplished? <P>I wish I could give you the magic words to make you see that you have a CHOICE here. I didn't think so either - you KNOW that! I thought I couldn't help how I felt. But when I began to concentrate on HIM instead of ME and my needs, everything changed. It was so easy that I still can't believe it! You loved her more than anything once... look into her eyes, really, REALLY look! See how she's trying SO HARD to make you happy. Try to live the pain you've given her, feel it. I know you feel terrible, I know you have terrible remorse... but on the other hand, you tell your W to her face that you don't love her like you should and still love the OW. I know you think your W is a saint, and she is. My H would NEVER have accepted that. You are so lucky, and again, I know you know that. I just SO MUCH want to lead you by the hand and SHOW YOU what to do so that you can love your W as you should. It is a CHOICE. I never realized and I feel like such a fool for not seeing it before.<P>Please don't be angry... I would never hurt you on purpose...<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited October 05, 1999).]

Sheryl,<P>Now why on earth would I be angry at you? Your advice is so good. And I agree with it up to a point. Yes, to love someone is a choice. But you just can't choose to love anyone can you? Some people are your type and some people aren't.<P>It was easy for you because you loved your husband before. So you chose to love him again. I'm truly truly envious of you.<P>I have never loved my wife "more than anything" as you put it. That is my WHOLE PROBLEM. I never had ACL (all-consuming love) for her. So we get back to the crux of the problem. Can I still fall in love with her when I never had ACL for her before? I'm not saying that it's impossible. But it will be harder for me than it was for you.<P>Also, I don't tell my wife that I'm still in love with the OW. I never ever mention her. If she ever comes up in conversation, it's because my wife broached the subject, not me.<P>One more thing. FWIW, my wife doesn't believe me when I say I never had ACL for her. She thinks it's still the withdrawal talking. Who knows, maybe she's right. We shall see. I am in this for the long run ya know!<P>take it easy Sheryl (and you too 3wishes!)<BR>--andy

andy,<P>if you didn't feel that ACL, what were you thinking the day you asked her to marry you? (don't read that sarcastically, it's meant as a reflective question). Were you happy that day?

What is the definition of ACL? Immature love (puppy) love, having that physical chemistry love, connected on emotional terms? I didn't have that with my husband when we first started going out but i do now and he doesnt, go figure. Maybe it takes almost losing your h or w (or losing them) to figure out what you had all along with them was what was real? maybe if someone is there for us we take them for granted? And maybe if that person finally tells us that they have fallen out of love with us and to go on with our lives that we realize that we actually do/did love them ACL-like?

*******Well, she doesn't WANT me to set her free. She wants to work on this. If I go to her and say "I'm setting you free. Go find someone who will truly love you." That would sound SO MUCH like a cop out to her. Plus there is the matter of my son. Don't you think we both owe it to him to try to make things right?<P>No, I think if you do not by now feel the feelings you should for your wife and you have never had those feelings then you need to take the time out in your life to figure out what you want....love comes from within there might be something deep down that causes you to make the decisions you do. You might need to take time out to love yourself before you search for love from anyone else. If you have unresolved feelings deep down and you do not love yourself then you will always run into this wall down the road you will never be able to really love someone else until you love yourself. Your son will do fine either way if he has two committed parents. But suppose your wife does find true love then that is much healthier for your son to see his mother cherished the way she should be. And what is he learning now (to bite the bullet and do what's right at the expense of all of the family) If you set any thing free....at first there is fear,hesitation,doubt but eventually it will work out. This is just my opinion, since I found out of my h betrayal I have read and studied a lot about why we as humans make the decisions that we make and treat people the way we treat them. What is in me that I excepted things in my marriage and did not pick up any warning signs (h affair was 2 years) At first I was so devastated that I felt I had lost my own identity but through searching and learning I have never felt closer to myself than I do now. How healthy can it be for anyone knowing that the other is "hangin' in there" just for the sake of a child. Don't let anyone hold you back from your true destiny. Lots of luck to you and your family. I do not think your lucky because you have someone accepting your feelings and you as is..like your wife is so willing to do, I think that's is weighing on you and you should pick yourself up and be true to those around you. I also have someone who does not ask me what I want but rather tells me that we really need to work on our marriage. He has yet to say "what do you want" I think he is avoiding that question! Instead he's pleading for us to make it work...and asking for forgiveness and one more chance. We are currently going to marriage counc. so we will see...but I refuse to work anything out just for our daughters sake it has to be for love!!! I'm worth that and so are YOU.