Frozen and I have made good progress as of late. I think I am starting to pull my head out on this past honesty issue and I really see complete honesty as the way to intimacy in my marriage. Past honesty was the problem. Talking about details seemed so painful. Not talking about it is not dealing with it. So, I am currently working on giving more information, by writing it in emails to her so she can read it. I have started Word documents and I write some of the story and then I send it to her. That is the method we are using. Anyway, I have more past honesty to go yet, but it is not the only issue I am dealing with. It will just take some time as I have to write more.

Pursuit is a huge issue at the moment. She says that I do not pursuit her and that I can not fake it, meaning that if I just don't naturally have it, then I never will. I say that I love her and that I desire to love her in the way she wants to be loved. She says that if she has to force something out of me that she desires, then she doesn't want it. I don't know what to do. She tells me about the problem and then because she has told me about the problem, by option for fixing it is gone, because I did not think of it on my own.

I am over-simplifying this issue I think but I just am unsure how to correctly communicate her stance. I feel I will make errors trying to tell her side. My side is that I love her. I want to spend my life being faithful to her and cherishing only her.

To illustrate the issue a bit, I will give an example. Yesterday, I had just gotten home, knowing we were going to watch movies shortly after she got home. We both enthusiastically agreed to this RC. I was looking forward to it. I was home, changed out of uniform and then decided I wanted to look around at programming information on the web(if you remember, I am a software developer that is currently on a mobilization in the Army) because some new things are out in my field and because I want to get back into the coding mindset. I will need to have a job after this deployment is done, and I like programming.

I am trying to eliminate sacrificing, since it is a destroyer of marriage and not the habit of a buyer. She calls me after I just got started looking at these things online and in my own installed IDEs and tools at home and there are things that need to be done. A run to deposit money in the bank for blinds we just purchased and a stop at Blockbuster. I am home and she is already out. I am caught of guard by her call a little in that I don't really know what has been accompished and what has not, initially, but in the idea of not sacrificing I communicate that I was interested in looking at the development information. After some talking and a try at POJA(which I think we still suck at) we arrive at the issue of lack of pursuit. Did I not want to spend time with her? How come I did not want to spend time with her? I did want to spend time with her. I also wanted to look at this programming stuff. I don't want to sacrifice, since it is a bad skill that fosters resentment, but what do I do?

Is it independant behavior to spend time doing what I want to do if it doesn't include her? She is not a programmer nor an online first-person shooter player, but those are things I enjoy. I have been away from a prorammin job for over a year and the skill is perishable, so I am interested in trying to maintain it. I enjoy time with friends to play an online game, but the fact is, I haven't played with these friends in months. Less than what you could count on 1 hand in the last 5-6 months I think. Maybe I am mistaken.

She and I spend time together during the week. Currently it goes like this, due to a recent change. Monday and Wednesday is school night. Tuesday does not currently have a schedule. Thursday is MB Study night for 2 hours, where we are taking the Q&A articles and discussing them in a classroom format. Friday is date night. This is an implementation beginning this week. Before we were stuck with my lack of leadership and failure to truly own up to my errors and A by not talking about it unless she pushed the issue. Saturday and Sunday is not totally set up either, but Saturday morning and afternoon she works, so Saturday evening and Sunday are the times available. I can go to have lunch with her on Saturday, or some such thing while she is at work so that is also open.

Is it wrong to want something that only you enjoy and your spouse does not? I mean sitting on the computer programming, reading about it and/or trying to learn it is really not an RC kind of thing, but I want to do it. Is it wrong?

I have been an idiot with honesty. Hiding the truth from her by sugar coating things. She finds out adn flys off the handle. That I understand. Then, in the idea of trying to be honest, I say something that to me seems honest and then once illuminated by her sounds stupid. This sucks. Example. I was in a fantasy football league with some online friends. The guys I used to play online games with all the time ignoring my wife and also continuing an A. They had nothing to do with the A, but I played online with them and ignored Frozen's needs. I totally own and admit that, much as it hurts me that it is true that I hurt her. Well, again, these guys have nothing to do with my A and I have since scaled way back on participating in the online gaming(less than 5 times in the last 6 months... I am sure of it). Well this fantasy football stuff was interesting, frankly because football is interesting to me. I played and have a love for the game. So I would spend time on the sports sites, Fox mainly, checking on roster info and things. There might have been a few nights I did it excessively, but most often I was on checked some things and done with it. So, one evening, I am driving back from school and I call Frozen to inform her of my whereabouts and she asks me something along the lines of so I love her or do I enjoy her or some thing of that nature. I tell her yes I enjoy her and I enjoy fantasy football too.

....

what a bonehead thing to say. I certainly see her side of it in the writing of this and in thoughts prior to now, but I was trying to be open and honest. No, fantasy football does not sit on the same plane as Frozen. Not even the same anything. But in an attempt to over compensate for past dishonesty and lack of openness, at the moment, this statement seemed to be a statement that let her know about me as a person and what I was interested in. Things I like. What I was interested in. I thought it was being open and honest at the time. I fear that I am such a bad judge of what is withholding info and what is not, that here I am saying I love my wife and I love fantasy football in the same sentence, when the initial reason she was asking was for reassurance, I think. That sentence puts them on the same plane and it is incorrect. Well, of course one of the horrible by-products of convincing you wife you are a liar is not being able to unconvince her. When I lied or was not open, she could sense it or I might let something slip and she would catch it. She would then ask about it and I would begin backpedaling or trying to gloss over it by sugar-coating it. Unfortunately, me simply trying to explain myself looks just like the sugar-coating and glossing over... because I can tell in the tone of the question that I ahve done something to upset her... and so lots of uhs and ums occur. And it sounds like I am lying again. I was trying to tell the truth all along and the execution of it was poor. I love, like and enjoy her. More than any single person in the world. I like fantasy football. It is an inanimate thing and I don't even put it on the same level of 'like' as a human being. But, as a poor communicator and as a man trying to always be open and honest in ALL things, I made the mistake of inconsideration and poor timing. I could tell her I like fantasy football some other time when we might be talking about silly things we like in the world. I hope I have explained this well, because this happens all the time. Me trying to be honest and being such a naive child at it. I feel like Brick off Anchorman. Frozen: "Do you love me?" <bats eyelashes> Patriot: "Yes, I love you and I love lamp" <stupid idiot look on face>

Date night is tonight, since she opted for a hockey game. I bought the tickets but I am afraid that it will be a crappy night. She has every right to hurt and I am really making an effort to compensate for my A. I can't honestly expect she will put down her feelings for the night because that is not honest. If she is feeling it, then she is. I know we have work to do ahead of us, but I want to have a good time with her too.

I wish someone would 2x4 me and set me straight. I don't care how much I get hurt or what people think about me.... I just want her to honestly stop hurting inside.

I think you two may be a little over analytical about things, it appears that you both agonize over the meaning of every word and action.

You are both trying very, very hard, and of course she will have hurt feelings, and you will have frustration, but I really think that you guys should just relax a little, and live.

Do you two ever just enjoy each other, and not wonder what it means?

I don't know how long you guys can keep up this pace, it worries me, because I really like you both so much, and I know how much you love each other, it's VERY evident in the things you say, and what you do.

Can you guys go on vacation? Or a weekend get away? Just enjoy being with each other for a while?

Good Luck and God Bless,

-Caren

Pat,
What you are beginning to rekindle is the hobbies and passions that exited prior to Dday. This is a good sign! It indicates that you are coming out of your PTSD that occured on Dday and you are moving forward and engaging your life and your passions again.
We all have them. I used to play golf 2 to 3 times per week prior to Dday. Since then, I have played 3 to 4 times in the 3 and 1/2 years since Dday. I lost all interest's of my prior life and settled into a deep depresiion that has still, to this day, not completely passed.
Your horrible journey, has not completely run it's course yet. You will still encounter these "bad days" in the future. the key is to continue to work through them and grow past them.
Heck, for me it's been 3 and 1/2 years, and here I sit on a Sat afternoon on MB forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
Give yourself a break, you are doing all that it is your power to reconsile and heal your M. Froz may very well be on a different time line than you. Eventually, you will both be on the same page, but don't expect it to happen overnight, or, for that matter, in a year or two. My FWW is still not on the same page as me, but , I will be as patient as I have to be, for, I love her beyond my belief.
All blessings,
Jerry

To Patriot and Frozen,

I am scared to post to you both because your recovery journal has been so helpful to me and I know Bramblerose is your best source. Still felt compelled to post, though.

The area I know best is right in your post. Froz feels rejection; anticipates it, sees it and reacts to it. She craves feeling safe, knowing she is loved by you at all times without doubt. I feel like she believes she can get that from you. My experience says, she can't.

Froz, you are such a loving, smart, earnest and diligent human being. If I told you that Patriot is the same, would you believe me? In his own way, he is as focused and concerned for you as any human alive can be. So are you. You don't have to experience feeling rejected when Patriot (or anyone) chooses an activity "over" you. That feeling is coming from a belief you have. You believe that real love comes from obsession--constant pursuit and focus is what love feels like to you. You fall into it, are wrapped and enmeshed with it. Not unreasonable given that you would feel rejected, unloved or less loved if Patriot doesn't act that way.

You're not odd or wrong here. I felt the same way you did. I couldn't feel my H's love unless...he did this, this and this. Anything less felt like it proved the opposite was true. Your pain is real, deep and seems abiding. Change your beliefs and you can change your pain.

" She says that if she has to force something out of me that she desires, then she doesn't want it."

Realize you can't force anything out of Patriot. What he does, he chooses. Just as you do. Rather than feeling love is falling into something, realize it is a choice. Every thing is does/says to you is coming as a gift of his love to you. Same for what you do/say to him. He is feeling torment from believing he is failing you.

I got to a place where I don't feel any rejection when my H does something he enjoys (the football stat research, games, etc.) because I know that he isn't rejecting me. I no longer feel the need to be pursued because I can see each touch, conversation, honest statements as gifts. I can feel loved in his presence and his absence. I did it by looking inside myself and doing this: If I am feeling rejected on the outside, am I rejecting myself inside? If I don't feel loved out there, how am I doing on showing my love in here? If I'm wanting comfort, entertainment, assurance, security...same thing. What am I doing for me?

I found out that my H was drowning in my need and felt if he couldn't do enough (my needs were huge) then why try at all? He would only get the feeling of failure and he hates that feeling. His feeling responsible for my huge needs told him that he was inadequate, not worthy of love.

Even when I got this really well, I would slip in my perspective and feel last place in my H's love. Because we'd gone through years of addictions--he would spend full days in games, sports, keeping little bits of papers with stats, watching movies...I would trigger to that still, even if was only happening once or in moderation. My fears tripped me up and gave me that hopeless, never-gonna-change feeling. But he has and he doesn't resentment me for it. I state how I'm feeling and he says, "Good to know." I get myself adjusted and then I don't have that pain.

What also triggered me to get it was those things that I saw my H as falling into, wrapping around himself and obsessing about..well, wasn't that love?

LA

Just a curious question..... have u 2 read His Needs/Her Needs?

Re: During recovery, the needs of the Xbs is strong. The Xbs has less patience for stupidity or what they perceive t/b acts of stupidity. I am not saying you did anything stupid but in her eyes, your lack of the 'kind' of attention she wants or needs is what puts the 'stupid' label. I c/b over simplifying here but I think you get my point.

Early on in the real recovery my Xws and I came up with a term when we wanted each others attention on big or small issues. The term was 'can I ask you a question?' If the answer was yes, then the question was asked, if it was met with a no, then the asking spouse would retrest for a better opportunity and the receiving spouse had to let the other know when it w/b a good time to come back with the 'question'. This put the onis where it needed to be and neglect or I forget was not an excuse.

Seems like you are dealing trying to communicate with your W on your level not hers. She is adamant you do it on her level, hence the vicious cycle. Throw in monthly hormonal changes and you've got a recipe for disaster.

JMHO,
L.

I just wanted to chime in and say that there are a few misrepresentations regarding what I want or how I feel in Patriot's post.

I feel like it is important to correct these, not out of defensiveness, but it wouldn't seem helpful to anyone to get feedback on an issue that doesn't exist.

I don't blame Patriot or think any misrepresentations are made out of malice, but out of a lack of understanding, which is part of the problem.

I do fear putting it all out there and trying to be understood and failing, because I have done such an inadequate job of being able to explain it to him in a way that he understands. I fear that no one will understand what the heck I'm talking about and just write me off as erratic and just whatever...

I'll start by explaining that the reason it IS so difficult for me to explain is that some things are based on intuition and emotion. Those things are very often difficult to explain to another person. Try explaining something to someone else that you just have "a feeling" about something. It's not easy.

I think I'll proceed slowly and cautiously with this, if that's okay.



Not entirely accurate. If I have to force THIS out of him I don't want it - not just anything...THIS.



I do understand why he would feel like this. If I could adequately explain the "pursuit" issue to him, it might be easier for him to understand why.


I'm not sure why he was caught off guard. I completely explained to him up front the reason for my call. I called to tell him that I was on my way home from work, and that I needed to go to the bank and to Blockbuster. Because I hadn't talked to him, I didn't want to just go running all over town without knowing what his plans were. I just wanted to let him know what I needed to do, without making a decision for him to go do these things without him. What if HE wanted to go to Blockbuster and pick out a movie? I thought I would just let him know the situation so he could have the opportunity to say what he wanted.



He did say what he wanted. This is what he wanted.


Amen.



I didn't ask either of those questions. For some reason, that is just what he hears.



No, it isn't. It isn't about that.



Not mistaken. It isn't about this either. It has zero to do with the amount of time spent together.



These things are all very wonderful and I very much appreciate them, but it doesn't address this particular issue because it isn't about the amount of time spent together. I don't just want "more, more, more".



No, I do not think it is wrong at all. I have no problem with his doing these things. I am glad he enjoys them.



That is funny. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I wrote that one off early on as just "guy" communication.


I am afraid of this, too.



Yes, he is. His efforts are not unnoticed or unappreciated at all. This is a whole separate issue - one that existed long before the A.



I don't think it's DIS-honest. He knows how I feel. That doesn't mean we have to focus on it tonight.



That is nice of him to say.

I wish someone would 2X4 him, too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> or maybe ME. I just wish someone could help bridge the communication gap. I think it is more my fault for not being able to explain well enough, because he does try to understand.

U 2 need to learn to communicate on each other's level.

Have u both counseled with Steve?

L.

Froz,

You say one thing and do another in your post. That's human. I know you as a strong, honest person. Fix that, 'k?

Do you really want this bridge to be built? What I see as your base issue is this: disrespect.

"I feel like it is important to correct these, not out of defensiveness, but it wouldn't seem helpful to anyone to get feedback on an issue that doesn't exist."

You are saying that his post isn't an issue. He put his thoughts and feelings and you are saying they are invalid. That he shouldn't feel that way. He got it wrong. He heard you wrong. You say you aren't explaining it well enough.

His responsibility is to hear you and restate it as he understands it. Same for you. Then you say whether or not that was what you meant. Listening and clarity. Full respect.

From what I've seen on your recovery thread, you have always been excellent at stating your feelings and doing self-examination. You seemed to have gotten clear on what was yours and what was his, separate, respectfully.

"I'll start by explaining that the reason it IS so difficult for me to explain is that some things are based on intuition and emotion. Those things are very often difficult to explain to another person. Try explaining something to someone else that you just have "a feeling" about something. It's not easy."

Here is disrespect to others. We all have intuition and emotion. You are saying they are difficult for others to explain. This is out of character for you--you're great at "I" statements. The only reason I can see for you to have slumped into this is because your H's post affected you greatly. I dunno. Your feelings are yours. You have to sort them out and find the information in them. Your gut is telling you something, usually intuition is when you don't have a feeling but a mental one. Yep, it's difficult for me. Moreso because I don't trust you to understand me. I control that, you don't.

"She says that if she has to force something out of me that she desires, then she doesn't want it."

Not an "I" statement so you may have reacted to it like a truth. You say "Not entirely accurate. If I have to force THIS out of him I don't want it - not just anything...THIS."

First, re-read his statement as what he believes, separate from truth. This concerns him. Ask how he feels about it--stuck, helpless? Your response told him he had an inaccurate belief because if you have to force THIS one thing then you feel that way. I'm so confused. You are saying you truly believe you can force him into something. I still can't grasp that belief. I'll honor it for you. It's yours.

"I wrote that one off early on as just "guy" communication." You wrote off a concern of his again. You don't have to agree with his beliefs, but respect them is part of that bridge. What he said, he said that twice. Interesting. You have the power to write off, force stuff out of him and cause his concerns.

He feels just as responsible for you--your actions/feelings. Is he as disrespectful? Does it matter? By the very fact you two believe this IS the disrespect. If you are responsible for him, then he isn't for himself. And vice versa.

You both are afraid of having a crappy night. Like you don't have a choice?

LA

LovingAnyway,


He asked first! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



Honest...yes. Strong...sometimes (often times), I don't see what others see where this is concerned.

I'm really not sure what you mean by the first sentence. How am I doing this?


I didn't see that at all. In fact, I was making every effort to be completely respectful. Maybe I was. Maybe I wasn't. I'll ask him.



I wasn't saying that his thoughts and feelings were invalid. I was saying that he was incorrect regarding what he said about how I think and feel.

If he says "She thinks the problem is this..." and I don't, it seems futile to attack a problem that doesn't exist. If he said something was a problem for HIM , of course I believe that would need to be addressed. He didn't say that.

He did hear me wrong, and I still think it is because I wasn't explaining it well enough. I take responsibility for that, so I am unsure how I was showing disrespect.



That's precisely what I believed I was doing.



I definitely didn't intend to be disrespectful towards anyone. His post didn't greatly affect me, in that I didn't feel a strong emotional reaction towards anything he said. I was simply trying to be clear about how I felt and what was not a problem for me so the real issue could be addressed.


I honestly didn't feel that way. I honestly felt that I didn't trust myself to explain it well (because I find it difficult). I tried to explain why I find it difficult.


To re-read his statement:



I don't say that. It isn't true that if I he has to make an effort at something I want, then I don't want it. I don't feel that way.

I'm confused, too. I'm not sure what you mean in your last four sentences.



It was not my intention to write off something he was concerned about. It wasn't something he stated he was concerned about. It was something I was concerned about. I made the decision to stop being concerned about it and to not make a big deal about it. That's all I meant.



I am really unclear as to what you are talking about here.

Orchid,



Wow, do we...

As far as counseling with Steve. I think that is a wonderful idea and I am willing to do that.



Patriot read HNHN and I read LB and then we were going to switch, but we didn't.

Caren,

You are right on target. Can we? I've suggested and/or asked for the vacation thing many times. Can we just enjoy being with each other for a while? Wow...I sure tried last night. I'm not sure what I did wrong. Last night was a disaster. The whole weekend has been a disaster, in fact it seems to be carrying over into this morning, regardless of the fact that I woke up this morning being positive. He is going to be gone all day (work). In the 20 minutes we spent together, things have somehow managed to feel EXACTLY like last night. When he left, he yelled at me, then told me to have a nice day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

LovingAnyway,



Are you saying that I cannot have a M with Patriot in which I feel safe and know that I am loved? Why are you saying that?



Thank you for the compliment.



I do know that to be true about him, so yes, I would believe you.


I do not believe that. I am not asking for that, nor do I desire it. In fact, it would probably be quite cumbersome. I desire occassional pursuit. I desire to matter. I desire to be valued and to have actions that reinforce that value.

I do not feel valued when Patriot tells me he does not miss me. I do not feel valued when he tells me that it's fine if I spend time with him, but okay if I don't. I do not feel valued if I tell him I am thinking of leaving this relationship and he says okay, as long as I leave him a vehicle.

I could go on, but I won't right now. This morning sure did go sour.

In fact, what the heck am I posting on his thread for, anyway? Turning it back over to him, and I apologize for crashing, Patriot. I had good intentions and then everything just kind of blew up in my face. Sorry.

THUMP!!!!!!!!!!

That's me falling to the ground..

geeeze..

lighten up both of you...

way way way too analytical...

you guys are still one from mars and one from venus..ain't no therapy in the world gonna change THAT issue........

to the point of self introspection and psycho-babble over kill....

beware of over analyzing it can destroy

ARKIE

Froz ~ my dear, you need to let Patriot post without jumping in to interpret (ie control) the conversation. It is terribly disrespectful on so many levels. HIS interpretation is just as valid as yours.

I hear you loud and clear. <salute>

{{{Patriot}}}

Keep posting if you feel comfortable. Even if just to get your frustration out here instead of at home. Ark is right..mars and venus trying to meet up is you two.

I don't feel uncomfortable, but thank you for your concerns. I honestly don't feel disrespected, but maybe I am being naive. I appreciate her stating that I have misunderstood something, if that is in fact the way she feels. I like dealing in real too. Real you can fix. Or at least is better to deal with than fake.

She knows I love her. So it isn't she feels unloved. Had that discussion last night. Want is a word we are going to try on for a while. She feels unwanted. Like she doesn't matter.

I have to admit that if she had an A, I would feel unwanted. Not good enough. That's just the truth.

So wanted is the word we will use for the moment.

In other news, we really need to tighten up our usage of POJA and this new rule we made(cause we are funny like that) called the Rule of Break. We had already created the Rule of Up, the little know 5th rule of healthy marriages, which states that he or she who is 'up' or just closer to a requested item retrieves it. Say I am in the kitchen and she is in the bed room and she wants a glass of water. I am 'up' and in the kitchen so the rule states I get it. We apply this with reckless(and humorous) abandon to everything. She might be laying in bed and I am standing in the bed room, but she wants the remote control. Even if the remote control is right next to the bed on the floor and she could just reach down and grab it, the Rule of Up states I grab and deliver the item. Of course, every rule has exceptions. In this case, the exception to the rule is if one finds themselves on the toilet and out of toilet paper, no matter the scenario, the 'up' person gets the paper. The person on the toilet is NOT the 'up' person. I am sure you understand why.

Now the Rule of Break states in a heated discussion, any member of the discussion can halt the discussion without question to take a 30 minute break. A cooling off period if you will. This new rule we suck at currently. We want to power through this stuff and make our marriage better, not matter if our marriage is fighting us every step of the way. This new and very important rule needs to be worked on.

Anyway, I whole-heartedly approve any communication she wants to have with me, including (if need be) discussions on threads each other starts. By my first post, although in error in verbage, was helpful because it prompted her to talk to me and we actually had an interesting discussion that was full of patience and kindness last night.

Then we went to the hockey game and oh well...

I smile right now. Do you know when you give up on the kind of love Frozen and I have?

....never.

I hope no one feels chastised. I am just talking and if I have said anything that bothers someone, it was not my intention to harm.

Orchid: Ok, so now you have options you are aware of. U 2 are sooo near recovery U can almost taste it.....what's holding u 2 back? Afraid of being happy? (not being sarcastic here...think.... r there any hidden fears)?




Orchid: Easy fix. Switch books b4 posting. You each have the tools to help you, yet u 2 are choosing to keep in that vicious cycle. U 2 are sooooo close to making it right. Sooo close.

L.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> very happy *sigh*

I was thinking about you two today (yeah I know get a life LOL)and here is what popped into my head.

Froz calls Pat on the phone "I have to stop by the bank and Blockbuster on the way home. Would you like to join me at Blockbuster or do you care if I pick the movie for our RC time?" Patriot says "thanks for checking with me honey. I really want to read up on stuff related to my profession on the net right now. I trust your judgement and have no problem with you picking the movie"

No hurt feelings or misunderstandings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You both are great!

If only it were that simple. That's actually a little how I expected the conversation to go, but I guess he was confused about why I was calling.

Man, did we have some freaky communication difficulties this past weekend. It was like we weren't even on the same planet. We don't usually have so much trouble understanding each other. I think part of our frustration is that we usually DO understand each other fairly well and that monkey wrench was extremely frustrating.

We tried to POJA the Bank/Blockbuster incident. We tried to be creative and think of a solution that would best accomplish all the tasks.

Because I didn't know where I needed to drive to and I was already in the car when I called him, I just started to head home. I figured I needed to get the movies we already had checked out anyway.

I don't live far from work, so I was home before we even finished our conversation. After I got home, we continued to try to POJA.

Initially, he did state what he wanted. He wanted to work on his programming stuff. I was a little disappointed because I hadn't seen him all day and I sometimes enjoy running errands with him so we can talk about each others days and reconnect.

He heard in my voice that I was disappointed, but his first suggestion, to drop everything and come with me, seemed like he was sacrificing. I didn't want him to sacrifice.

We were also both starving.

When he spends time with me, I would really rather it not be because I want to and he doesn't, but he is afraid I will be upset if he doesn't.

He was right when he said that. I will usually refuse his offer, because what I REALLY want is not for him to spend time with me, it's for him to WANT to. So his making that sacrifice doesn't even meet my need at all. In fact it makes me feel worse - like I had to beg or be disappointed for him to want to do it.

It doesn't have to be this way every time, but it would be nice if there were times when spending time with me were what he really wanted to do, not because he was doing it as a favor to me.

I just want to feel wanted.

Anyway, things had been going very well between us the few days prior to the Blockbuster/Bank incident, so I guess I kind of expected he would want to go with me. It caught me a little off guard that he didn't, which probably contributed to my poor response.

Also I offered, as you suggested, to pick out the movies by myself, but none of the movies I suggested sounded appealing to him (which was fine), so he did want to pick out movies.



The suggestions he made in POJA:

- I could accomplish the bank and Blockbuster and then come home and make dinner while he programmed (what he said he wanted from the start)

- We could both go to the bank and Blockbuster and then we could come home and I could make dinner while he programmed.

I already knew he didn't want to go run errands, and I didn't want him to sacrifice. I realize that this is his responsibility to decide, but I find myself being very afraid of his sacrificing because, in the past, he has had a difficult time NOT sacrificing and it is a large part of what led to the A, in my opinion.

It frightens me a lot that he will sacrifice and I won't know it.

By this time we are spending all our time POJA'ing (without success) and the bank was going to close soon and we were REALLY starving.

His last suggestion:

He could go to the bank AND to Blockbuster while I cooked dinner.

What I hear:

It isn't important to him to spend time with me. He doesn't really desire it all that much. What seemed more important was getting all the tasks accomplished, when what I really wanted most was to hear about his day and tell him about mine and reconnect on the drive.

It seemed like what was most important to him was that he get to pick out a movie, that someone go to the bank, and that we both get to eat soon.

None of those things were what I wanted from the start.

He doesn't have to want to spend every minute with me, and honestly, it isn't at all about the AMOUNT of time he spends with me. It is about that when he does spend time with me, it is because he really has a strong desire to.

Most often it doesn't matter one way or another to him. He seems fine to spend time with me, but fine if he doesn't.

It would just be really wonderful if the midst of all of those times, there were also times where it really did matter to him.

We ended up going to do all the errands together, and thus began the demise of our weekend.

The hockey game was absolutely horrid. We didn't even make it past the first period without incident and we left. I tried to salvage the RC time by saying "You know what? If the hockey game just isn't fun anymore, how would you feel about scrapping it and going to a pub to have a drink and throw darts?"

He said that was fine with him, but he was already pretty frustrated and angry.

When we got to the pub, we didn't even make it past the parking lot and never even got out of the car.

By that time, I couldn't seem to muster any more enthusiasm and was fresh out of ideas and felt like just giving up and trying again next week.

We came home. He made his own last ditch effort and suggested playing rummy. We played two hands and then went to bed.

It was officially our worst date night yet. I'm glad that weekend is behind us. Maybe we were both trying a little TOO hard (at different times). We were both pretty darn frustrated.

froz, it is a male trait to want to just accomplish the task. Sometimes we women make it too complicated.

I couldn't have cared less if ANYONE went to the bank or to Blockbuster, and they were my errands to begin with.

If POJA gets bogged down, try asking "Why."

As in "Why do you want to ___________?"

Or, "Why do you *not* want to _____________"
Mulan