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#1583929 02/08/06 02:29 AM
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Hey!!! I was looking through the post "Psst - RLD...." and I need to tell you about a conversation I had with ww last night. I approached her with my need to develop a marital separation agreement (a GREAT suggestion by a friend who is divorced). She does not like discussing the divorce - and defended with passion her reasons. I listened to her. I did not defend myself. I just listened. She talked about how for 12 years she feels that i have never listened. How she felt she was in a box, and I would travel, and work, and come home and open the box and give her all my love, and put her back in the box. And I listened. I looked her in her eyes, and told her I hear her. My impulse was to defend - but I just listened. I told her that I wanted to protect my custody rights. She told me that the kids could have no better a father - that she would not find a better man. But she still stands by her divorce. She is afraid of the box. Of no intimacy. Of my not receiving her passion.

I have come to terms with the divorce. I am ready to move on. But I still feel like it is absolutely the wrong choice. I have reconciled the pain - the ......

I have given up on it. But - I think it was Mortarman - who said that the love is like a car battery. You can wear it totally out. But come back in a day or two and it will have regenerated enough charge to crank one more time.

That remaining small charge is there. But I am afraid to turn the key. Both Harleys told me it was over.

But I see hope. She claims she does not. She said she anguishes every day with this decision. She asks herself if she really wants to divorce this man. And she has tasted the wild, single life. She may have a man in the wings right now.

We both agree that it is in the kids best interest to stay in the same house. But I told her I could not deal with her going out with other men. She said she knows - as if agreeing. But she still stands by her divorce.


What is going on in her head?????????????????

This is kinda hopeful - and I want the best for my kids. I can not stand the thought of a day without being in their lives - without them being in mine.

She is teetering on the edge of maybe - just maybe - thinking of some day giving the relationship another chance.

I am not anguishing. I am not passionate except for my kids. But I want to make the right choice. God is a god of forgiveness. Of grace. And who am I to defy that.

Sorry for rambling. This is kinda my blog - my journal - but with questions.

She has done a LOT of reading of fairly new age stuff - stuff that empowers her to feel like she must make herself happy. That really complicates things.

Anybody know about any of this?

G'night.

far

Last edited by foundareason; 02/23/06 12:28 PM.

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FAR, I see some glimmers of hope there. Listening is huge for a woman who feels she was not heard for a long time. I think you will find many of us FWW's had the very complaint about our H's. Have you thought about asking her to go on a weekend just the two of you? Just to reconnect. To give her a chance to talk while you listen? Or perhaps a marital retreat if she is open to it. Family life does their weekend to remember here in California. I think the first ones are in March. I am going to ask Dorry to post to you too.


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She has done a LOT of reading of fairly new age stuff - stuff that empowers her to feel like she must make herself happy. That really complicates things.
I just saw this. That is the kind of entitlement crappola that scares me. Where does she stand with her faith?


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^bump^ for Dorry


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She has done a LOT of reading of fairly new age stuff - stuff that empowers her to feel like she must make herself happy. That really complicates things.

Anybody know about any of this?


Yes, unfortunately, I do know alot about the New Age Movement. It's EVERYWHERE in our culture - some hidden, some not.

This website describes it pretty well (read up):
http://www.carm.org/nam/nawhatis.htm

A couple of important points about New Age:

What the New Age Movement does not do.
It does not teach that man is a sinner - Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:3.
It does not teach that man is dependent upon God for all things - Isaiah 43:7; James 1:17.
It does not teach that punishment is eternal - Rev. 14:11.
It does not teach that the wages of sin is eternal separation from God - Rom. 6:23; Isaiah 59:2.
It does not teach that Jesus is the only way to God - Matt. 11:27; John 14:6.
It does not accept Christianity as the truth - 2 Tim. 3:16.

The New Age Interpretation of Christianity
God is not a personal heavenly Father but an impersonal force.
God is all and all is God. God is not the "wholly other" creator of all, but part of all that exists.
There is nothing that is not God. (This is pantheism.)
There is no sin, only incorrect understanding of truth. Knowledge is what saves, not Jesus.
He11 is not a place but an experience here on Earth; it is a state of mind.
Jesus was just one of many way showers of divine truth. He exemplified the Christ consciousness probably better than anyone else.
Christ is a consciousness, a form of the higher self. It is possessed by all because everyone is divine. "It is not Christ that can be crucified" (Miracles, Lesson 303, p. 441).
"A miracle is a correction...It merely looks on devastation, and reminds the mind that what it sees is false. It undoes error" (Miracles, p. 164). A miracle to a New Ager is not God's intervention into this world to perform His will but the realization of the true reality that God is all and that you are God.

The New Age View of Man
Since all is God, and man is part of all, then man is God. This is pantheism.
This is an eastern mystical belief system that has crept into mainstream America.
God is not part of creation. He is separate from it and made it (Isaiah 44:24).
Therefore, man is good by nature.
Man is not good by nature (Eph. 2:3).
Man has infinite potential.
This arrogant conclusion based upon false concepts of grandiose self worth, is a deceptive, self-satisfying indulgence into pride. As Satan wanted to be like God (Isaiah 14:12-17) and encouraged Adam and Eve to be like God also (Gen. 3:1-5), the New Ager listens to the echo of that Edenic lie and yields to it willingly.
Man is one with the universe.
Again the difference between man and creation is blurred. Man is made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26). The universe is not. Man is different than creation.

Scary stuff if you asked me. It's in your kids books at school talking about how we are all part of the whole - one with nature, etc. It's in your kids cartoons - talking about using the force for good (Daniel 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces : and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.) It's on TV everyday (Oprah is a big New Ager along with many many others). Everything in our culture has absorbed it.

But, what is most scary is they are using Christian terms to confuse people. Oprah talks about God alot. She even talks about Jesus. But, she is certainly not referring to the God of the Bible or the Jesus I know.
http://www.goodfight.org/hwowinfrey.html

I'd get her as far away from the New Age Movement as possible (if you can) because this is driving her away from you & away from God.

Last edited by Want2BStrong; 02/09/06 01:27 AM.

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She is a Christian, but has been reading tons of stuff that is not in line with scripture. It helps her feel better about her decisions.

What a day. I called and asked ww to the Valentine's banquet. She was flattered. We discussed going someplace different. We agreed that she would let me know.

My son heard the conversation, and asked "daddy - who did you ask on a date?" "Mommy." He was suprised. He said "I thought you and mommy were getting a divorce." My 4yo daughter said - "mommy broke up with you." I told them that I did not want a divorce, that mommy wanted the divorce. That I did not think it was the right thing for the kids. (I know that my 12 yo has heard inappropriate conversations when I was not home)

Well - apparently it came up later today. WW emailed me, and let me have it for giving the kids too many details. Now she feels she has to defend herself (duh!!!) - and I should not have brought the kids into a complicated adult situation. She pointed out that it would be much more mature to tell them that there are grown up situations that are hard to understand.

This morning I had a small amout of exitement (not putting any eggs in a basket, though) about the possibility of taking a baby step in the right direction. Then it all seems to have been blown to he11.

Oh well.

Patience.

And time.

I will keep you posted.

far


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If I attack the new age stuff, it will drive her away. I will need to lure her - covertly - back to scripture. And yes, scripture and Christianity is used all over the place in the new age stuff.

I am typing a note in response to her email right now.

So how do we lure her back???

far


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Is she attending church with you? FAR, look into the Weekend to Remember www.familylife.com

Tell her no strings, you can stay in separate hotel rooms but you want to give your kids every chance to have a happy life. See what she says.

You are correct that you can't slam what she is reading. Let's see if we can't get some other Christians here to give you some ideas of luring her back to Christ. Perhaps change your thread title asking for Christian help??


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FAR, how are things going?


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FF - funny you ask....

Twice this week I have had conversations with ww during which she stated that she would not find a better man than me. We had a little bump - I discussed things with the kids, told them stuff in kid language - but told them that MOMMY wanted the divorce, that I thought it was wrong, and that I did not think it was the best thing for them. She emailed me railing me. I emailed defending, and we volleyed a couple of times. BUT..... I finally approached her in person and said we need to talk, so we are clear, and understand each other.

Well - saturday after taking the two little-uns to Curious George (ww, me, and the kids) - WW let me in on some info. She has a court date scheduled -but she is scared to death freaking out! She is afraid of making a mistake - but does not want to return to her life 2+ yrs ago (sadness, etc.) I told her, as I had written her in the emails that she could stay in the marriage and not feel that way. I told her I am a different man.

She is seriously doubting her wisdom with this divorce. I asked her later what did she want to do when she grows up. She wants to complete her masters. She wants to home school. She wants to do a bunch of things that will only work if she stays married and works it out.

I am tired. I perceive that she may still have something going on with someone.

I have not been comforting her. I have let her stay with her doubt by herself. I do not tell her I love her.

But I do.

But I am tired. I am working on the marital separation agreement, and hope to give it to her by wednesday. That should really make the confusion and doubt get really focused.

I am ready to move on. But I want nothing more than for it to work out. And now SHE is talking about it!!


Well - she is at least doubting the divorce.

She hugs me like she means it. And does not let go. I hug her back.

I guess i need to brush up on my SAA. It feels like we may be getting close to a decision to recover moment.

I have given up. And now this!

Am I excited??? Am I worn out???


THAT is how it is going!!!

I understand the comment by Harley that when the WS finally comes around, they have to work hard, because the BS is ready to quit. He is.

Anybody understand what I am saying???? (tongue in cheek..)

cautiously considering being mildly excited....

far


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I think the fact that your WW is having doubts is promising. The last thing I would do now is come on strong to her. Didn't the Harley's suggest that you were approaching the end of your M?

Hopefully you will get some good advice from some of the vets on here.

I thought your flame had gone out?

I wonder what others feel about doing a strong Plan A for a few more weeks and then hitting her with Plan B.

far, don't give up hope. You came on here a little before me and I followed your thread so I'm glad to see there is still hope.

Remember as long a one parter is still willing to salvage the M, it can be done!

Good luck


Married 10 years, Legally Seperated Aug 2,2006
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Hope - Thanks.

I do not plan to come on strong. I explained to her the benefits of staying married. But my plan right now is to move forward as if she is continuing the divorce. And it is not a show. I am moving forward to protect myself, and my rights as the father of my children.

When I stated that my flame had gone out, it had. I am interested in my kids having the best situation, and survival of the marriage is the best thing for them. Otherwise, I would have been out of here months ago.

I am chewing on my thoughts. I have lots of 'em, and need to do some serious journaling.

Thank you all for your support.

Mortar explained his car battery analogy to me. Sometimes when your car battery dies, you crank it until it seems nothing is left. Come back a few days later, and enough juice will have developed for a couple more good cranks. That is where I am. I had dis-engaged, and begun to re-arrange my psychology as a single father.

There is a little smoldering under the seemingly dead fire, but it will be gone soon. I am thankful for plan A, and how well it has helped me move through the pain, and completely burn out the love I had for ww.

far


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{{FAR}}

Not a 2x4 because I think you are an amazing dad, but I do think apologizing to your WW/stbx for telling the kids SHE wants the D will go a long, long way. There were many times I wanted to tell my DD but she KNEW from observation how hard mom was trying and I did not have to spell it out.

I would continue to move forward with protecting you and your kids while keeping a crack in the door for your WW to come to her senses. I think you are doing a great job except for the above convo with the kids.


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(((FAR)))

I wonder if your wife is too scared...

I think your wife is having glimpses out of her fog...and it's what is confusing her. You see - when we are in "the fog" we become COMPLETELY convinced of things. You see she is feeling more confident, more sure if herself than she has in years, more independent...and all while she is WW...so that means (in her head) that you must be the problem, and the marriage...cause she never felt this way before...and these new feeling are motivation enough to BELIEVE that divorce, leaving, finding someone new are the BEST things for her - and for her kids, since she will be happier.

Let me guess - is your wife also a talker? like to talk about her feelings, talk about changes she thinks you should make? etc. And sometimes - if you had a bad at work, or she was nagging, would you just kinda brush her off? to her - that became neglect....and she felt resentment, unloved, etc...and it eventually led to her frame of mind. Right now she is convinced it was probably your whole marriage...but you see, she is having glimpses of reality - reality that it wasn't all that bad and it is CONFUSING the heck outta her....

This is mainly because of the way YOU are acting - you are staying calm, you are listening, at the same time as communicating your boundaries...You aare showing her LOVE despite all that she is doing...that LOVE confuses her - I bet she thought deep down you really didn't love her...

I agree that an apology for telling the kids will go a GREAT long way...and like FF said - keep going forward, but keep that crack open as long as you can....cause she is confused and that is really a good sign - it really is...


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Dorry - FF - thanks. I really need the advice and direction right now. I am moving into unfamiliar territory (possible recovery).

YES - she is a talker. And I did not do a good job of listening. She always seems suprised the last year or so when I listen without interrupting, then sumarize what she told me.

I did apologize for telling the kids that, and told her that I would encourage them about her love for them.

I have been very guarded with my words with her. I am quiet - but I listen well. But I do not say much.

I do not verbally tell her i love her. But i did text message her on Saturday: "I DO love you. far."

She mentioned that she got it, but could not text back.

I think she is starting to see through the fog.

My dad gave her my grandmother's ring when she died. She treasures it, but has not worn it in a long time. She pointed out this morning on the way to work that she is taking Nona to work with her today. She is wearing the ring. I prayed that she would hear my grandmother's voice during the day.

I am still working on the marital separation agreement, and moving forward as if she is going to finalize the D. I plan on giving it to her to review tomorrow. (happy valentines day!) I will not be mean or caddy - but businesslike when I discuss it with her. Reading it, I think, will be no fun, and a 2x4 of a dose of reality. She is very, very afraid of a future divorced.

BTW - we are going out tonight. Just the two of us. Any suggestions?

Thanks for the advice. Keep it coming. YOu guys are saving my life.

far


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BTW - we are going out tonight. Just the two of us. Any suggestions?
Yes...talk and listen. Don't be too quiet. Be up, cheerful, talk about how great your kids are, how proud of them you are, talk about what is new or interesting in YOUR life. Then listen while she talks. Look directly into her eyes while she talks. Smile, smile, smile. Don't be afraid to tear up if you are feeling sad, it is ok for her to see you sad.


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Will Do!!!!

That is what I would do naturally.

far


foundareason
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See! You are doing great.


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Okee dokee. Dinner went well. Conversation was back and forth between light and serious. But the evening went well.
She is very seriously considering trying again.
BUT - she is vehemently opposed to MB. She HATES being categorized (she stated "I am NOT a WW" - saying the letters - I am not even sure she knows what that means.) She despises the idea that she fits a pattern. She is not interested in discussing an MB directed recovery.

Oh well - fogtalk. There was lots of fogtalk tonight.

At the end of the evening she brought up that I called her shrink and told her that she had talked about suicide. She then explained how anyone that knows her would never consider that she would do such a thing. I told her that for the last two years, I have not known her. She commented "Well, that tells me a whole lot."- with attitude. That kinda pissed her off. She is still kinda steamy over that one. But every event that I thought would be the dealbreaker has followed the book.

One step at a time. She is more confused right now than ever in her life, she told me tonight.

Well - a good evening, all things considered!

OH!!! We held hands a lot after the table was cleared and driving home.

I have told her a couple of times that it would be good to be a couple again. She is aware of the positives of recovery. (she hated when I used that word...)

She is still very defensive of her actions and decisions.

Still not putting any eggs in the basket, though.

I will give her a copy of the marital separation agreement wednesday - for her input and so we can edit it, unless advised to the contrary.

far


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Good job, FAR. You might consider leaving a copy of "After the Affair" for her to read. It is the easiest to read from the WS perspective, IMHO.


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