On the recovery journal that my wife started, you posted the following.


I would like to talk about this. Froz really identifies with this and says it 'feels' right... but she can not explain it to me in a manner that I can follow. I think the difficulty for her and I is that we are both too close to the issue, and therefore a bit defensive about it.

I want to talk. I want to understand. We have been thrashing at recovery for almost 2 years now and it is just not moving very well.

And frankly, I need someone to talk to. I am so emotionally immature, I am like a big toddler crashing around the house beating her to death.

If you have the inclination, possibly you could talk with me a bit. Just here. Nothing private or inappropriate. If you have the time.

Thanks either way.

Sure Patriot,

No problem.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner..didn't see it until now.

So..where do you want to start?

I suppose a good place to start is to take what I have said or examples of what I have done to illustrate the idea that you are trying to convey.

I will make my thesis statement. My goal is to remove any and all subversion, manipulation and otherwise so that my wife can believe the husband she is dealing with is in fact the same man she sees with her eyes. Showing her what is real and true without agenda, pretense or assumption.

So, first.. illustration of this idea until I can mirror it to show I understand.

From this understanding, possibly, I can derive the ability to identify it and then I should be armed enough to change it.

Sound like an idea? Or not?

I truly appreciate you taking the time.

OK..sounds good.

Erm...I'm not going to be able to draw too many individual examples from your posts because I don't have time to look for them on the long thread and I don't have enough familiarity to just pull them from memory.

So let's start with a fresh example ..how about when you thought Froz DD might be pregnant?

I'd like to start by saying that you weren't actually *wrong*..a spouse with a different personality and set of issues might have *appreciated* the approach that you took..trouble is..that one of the main issues between the two of you is transparency [on your part] and Froz being willing to trust her judgement [her issue].

You can't really do anything to fix Froz or help her directly with her issues..first do no harm would be my approach..but you can.. and YOU especially can..make a choice to reveal yourself without involving a "set up".

So here's what I would suggest in a situation such as that one.

Ask Froz..how soon does she want to know what you know.

That minute? After work? When?

We all know that SOME amount of time is going to pass between you having information and you passing it on..does she want to be interrupted at work..will that fly..does she cares if it will fly? Or does she want more to just be in the know asap?

Then..depending on what she says..do that.

Call her at work..tell her you have found something that concerns you and does she want to talk about it now or wait?

If she says now..spill it. Just as it is. Don't try to cushion the blow or protect her little baby feelings ..the truth was enough for you..and it will be enough for her.

Then don't try to contain the fallout. Let whatever is going to happen..happen.

This allows Froz to be your equal..and puts her in a position of strength in your marriage. If you are running ahead of her trying to pave the road smoothly..you can not be by her side at the same time..make sense?

You are going to have to require yourself to let go of the controls. You will just have to turn those talents INWARD rather than manipulate the environment.

Instead of saying to yourself...what will be the best way to appraoch Froz about X, Y, or Z..ask yourself..what is the best way for me to get what's in *here* [points to head and heart] out *there* [points to a place Froz can see] without changing the content?

This will harder than you think..there are issues of fear..I think you will be suprised by how scary that sort of vulnerability will be for you.

Yay! Approval….


….and then I find out how unimportant I am…. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />


I find validation in this statement, but I recognize after the fact that it is selfish. I gain validation from the fact that it is not a wrong approach in every relationship… like I could have done this someone else and it ‘could’ have been all right. My meaning is that instead of being just plain totally wrong, I am wrong giving the situation… or the person, rather. Fact is, I see how I made frozen feel unsafe and I know it is not something I want to continue. Also, the good thing is later on you explain how I could have just dealt with this situation and been plain right. How is any of this selfish? Maybe it is obvious in some views… but I am specifically addressing the idea of I knew that given different parameters, this could have been a right way to tell her, and it is this fact that I was fighting for, wrongly. Instead of giving her what she wanted, I wanted her to take and accept what I gave her… and be happy. I SEE how that is a form of control. My approach did not fit the circumstance.


And this is where the light comes on. “set up”. That is such a true statement. I know I do that. I know every time I am doing it. I know exactly when I am trying to ‘ease’ a piece of information on to her because she is just so fragile.... I totally understand this concept of set up and I know when I am doing it. Those statements are important because often frozen and I have trouble with things because it is hard for me to ‘see’ when I am doing this thing that she hates or that thing that makes her feel unsafe. This one I got. So.. the idea you are pitching here is just speak without the set up. I imagine set up would be the not-so-long-lost brother of sugarcoating (one of my wife’s arch enemies).


Makes sense. And I can do that. My hang up in the past, and possibly going forward though I will be way more aware of it, has been the fact that frozen wants to know NOW!! I mean she wants it dirty, plain, unfiltered and now. OK… maybe that seems like a great idea, but if I know some piece of info that might very well incapacitate her at work… and then I say I have some piece of very bad info… and she says “I want it NOW” You say I just blast her with it.

“Hello?” “Hi Frozen… I have some really bad news… do you want it right now or when you get home?” “Now” “Your daughter might be pregnant and these are the reasons I think so”

In my mind… this is where the breakdown occurs… you know… the nervous one she is going to have. The one I am convinced she will have because she can’t take another hit. In my mind I am trying to protect her with set up so she can still function. You and she keep telling me that is wrong. Can I do it? Yes. You told me how… And she read what you said and agreed… so that is what we will try.

I will gather some bad news sometime in the future.. it is inevitable I’m sure… nd then I will call her immediately and tell her I have something and does she want it now. And then I will let her decide. I am not saying I will be just perfect from here on out, but you have given me something I can work with.

Maybe, at this point, folks think I am really stupid for a smart guy because I don’t already do this. I’m here to tell you… years of training from a family life that fostered this behavior as standard practice. But you have given me something here that I think I can implement.


This has been talked about before… closely after ‘pregogate’. I understand the idea… and I think I can do it. I have yet to run into something that allows me to test the new skills… if I in fact have them.


I will be honest. This is going to be hard when I am a mixture of fixer, reforming conflict avoider and provider. But, I am hoping that knowing this about myself is some ammo to combat these tendencies. Also, I have made some pretty good headway on the CA issues. So maybe it looks good.


Very good analogy and yes, it totally makes sense. Let her be a big girl and let her face the truth just like I have it. She has been screaming at me to give it to her and I have truly fooled myself into thinking I am protecting her by buffering. I get the analogy. Walk with her. Not ahead of her brushing the ugliness out of the way in a fashion that hides it from her. That is not real. Walk with her, let her see the truth and then stand by her and let her be her about it.

Did I get that right?


OK.. I honestly don’t make the link here with the focusing the skills inward. I do, however understand the idea, if it is illustrated above in my responses, that instead of ‘setting up’ and then delivering… just tell her I have something and let her decide if I deliver it now or later. Without buffer. Without sugar. Just plain and like the first car I ever bought.

As is.


Being vulnerable will be a scary thing for me… I am supposed to be a big strong man. No feelings. An oak. Blah blah. How is she supposed to believe I will protect her when I cry??

So… where I think I am at is I understand the ‘set up’ idea. Don’t set up. Let her decide if she wants the info. Check. But I need more on the inward skill usage and I need more on how I am vulnerable. Sure it is scary if I think she is going to pop a gasket because I am ‘trying’ to protect her.. but that is not letting her see ‘me’. That is just not filtering what I know about something else. From above… right after I said “Did I get that right?” I would like to cover that in depth more. Also, feedback on if I did, in fact, get that right(the stuff above it).

Thank you very much.

Yay! Approval….

>laughs<


….and then I find out how unimportant I am…. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />


I find validation in this statement, but I recognize after the fact that it is selfish. I gain validation from the fact that it is not a wrong approach in every relationship… like I could have done this someone else and it ‘could’ have been all right. My meaning is that instead of being just plain totally wrong, I am wrong giving the situation… or the person, rather. Fact is, I see how I made frozen feel unsafe and I know it is not something I want to continue. Also, the good thing is later on you explain how I could have just dealt with this situation and been plain right. How is any of this selfish? Maybe it is obvious in some views… but I am specifically addressing the idea of I knew that given different parameters, this could have been a right way to tell her, and it is this fact that I was fighting for, wrongly. Instead of giving her what she wanted, I wanted her to take and accept what I gave her… and be happy. I SEE how that is a form of control. My approach did not fit the circumstance.

Exactly. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong or selfish about that choice in a vacume..I personally might have responded very well to it..but in context..it was a bad choice.


And this is where the light comes on. “set up”. That is such a true statement. I know I do that. I know every time I am doing it. I know exactly when I am trying to ‘ease’ a piece of information on to her because she is just so fragile....

Stop treating her as though she is broken..she isn't. She is a grown woman with issues just like the rest of us. Do you see the DJ in this belief?

I totally understand this concept of set up and I know when I am doing it. Those statements are important because often frozen and I have trouble with things because it is hard for me to ‘see’ when I am doing this thing that she hates or that thing that makes her feel unsafe. This one I got. So.. the idea you are pitching here is just speak without the set up. I imagine set up would be the not-so-long-lost brother of sugarcoating (one of my wife’s arch enemies).




Makes sense. And I can do that. My hang up in the past, and possibly going forward though I will be way more aware of it, has been the fact that frozen wants to know NOW!! I mean she wants it dirty, plain, unfiltered and now. OK… maybe that seems like a great idea, but if I know some piece of info that might very well incapacitate her at work…

Possibly..but that is her area of operation not yours.

and then I say I have some piece of very bad info… and she says “I want it NOW” You say I just blast her with it.

“Hello?” “Hi Frozen… I have some really bad news… do you want it right now or when you get home?” “Now” “Your daughter might be pregnant and these are the reasons I think so”

Sounds to me like a good example of what Froz is asking for.

In my mind… this is where the breakdown occurs… you know… the nervous one she is going to have.

There's that pesky DJ again. You really believe that she is weak and not your equal..how would YOU respond to being treated as such?

The one I am convinced she will have because she can’t take another hit. In my mind I am trying to protect her with set up so she can still function. You and she keep telling me that is wrong. Can I do it? Yes. You told me how… And she read what you said and agreed… so that is what we will try.

Ironically enough ..THIS *is* the hit. This distortion of reality for "protective" purposes. A truer statement might be..that you are protecting yourself because you don't know what you will do IF she does break down or react in a way that appears bigger than you know what to do with. Do you see that in some ways you and Froz have the SAME fear..manifesting differently. It is about vulnerability. The possiblity of Froz having a meltdown scares the [censored] out of you doesn't it? Froz fears not being able to distinguish between reality and false reality..which is very akin to invalid staus..which is exactly how you are treating her..which propels her TOWARD that type of mentality. See the connection?


I will gather some bad news sometime in the future.. it is inevitable I’m sure… nd then I will call her immediately and tell her I have something and does she want it now. And then I will let her decide. I am not saying I will be just perfect from here on out, but you have given me something I can work with.

I'm sure Froz understands this..and you should understand that if you have a weak moment and fall back into protection mode..she will not be any less upset about it.

Maybe, at this point, folks think I am really stupid for a smart guy because I don’t already do this. I’m here to tell you… years of training from a family life that fostered this behavior as standard practice. But you have given me something here that I think I can implement.


This has been talked about before… closely after ‘pregogate’. I understand the idea… and I think I can do it. I have yet to run into something that allows me to test the new skills… if I in fact have them.

I'd practice on the small every day issues if it were me. Not wait for something HUGE to test the equipment. Just make it a daily habit to the best extent you are able to be as we agree..next to her..not ahead.


I will be honest. This is going to be hard when I am a mixture of fixer, reforming conflict avoider and provider. But, I am hoping that knowing this about myself is some ammo to combat these tendencies. Also, I have made some pretty good headway on the CA issues. So maybe it looks good.

This is where the selfishness comes into view..does it gain clarity now that I point out the connection? You are fixing things for YOU..for YOUR comfort..even when flat out acknowledging that your wife is TELLING you that she doesn't like it.


Very good analogy and yes, it totally makes sense. Let her be a big girl and let her face the truth just like I have it. She has been screaming at me to give it to her and I have truly fooled myself into thinking I am protecting her by buffering. I get the analogy. Walk with her. Not ahead of her brushing the ugliness out of the way in a fashion that hides it from her. That is not real. Walk with her, let her see the truth and then stand by her and let her be her about it.

Did I get that right?

You got it right. Words like..partnership..and support..come to mind..they starkly contrast patronization and controlling behavior.


OK.. I honestly don’t make the link here with the focusing the skills inward. I do, however understand the idea, if it is illustrated above in my responses, that instead of ‘setting up’ and then delivering… just tell her I have something and let her decide if I deliver it now or later. Without buffer. Without sugar. Just plain and like the first car I ever bought.

As is.

I'll try to make a link..uhm..ok..you go to a lot of trouble in the "set up"..right? It is more than a habit..it is a self defense mechanism..as such it will not be easy to just do it differently when the heat is on..so turn those skills for set up inward..and set YOURSELF up. Get yourself emotionally prepped to just be "there" and not "ahead".


Being vulnerable will be a scary thing for me… I am supposed to be a big strong man. No feelings. An oak. Blah blah. How is she supposed to believe I will protect her when I cry??

Your definition of protection is not the same as Frozens. She feels protected by authenticity..she is frightened by artificial contructs that are only called reality..tears and fear and insecurity that you aren't enough are ALL things that she can identify with. It is YOU who are frightened by them and feeling vulnerable..not Frozen.

So… where I think I am at is I understand the ‘set up’ idea. Don’t set up. Let her decide if she wants the info. Check. But I need more on the inward skill usage and I need more on how I am vulnerable. Sure it is scary if I think she is going to pop a gasket because I am ‘trying’ to protect her.. but that is not letting her see ‘me’. That is just not filtering what I know about something else. From above… right after I said “Did I get that right?” I would like to cover that in depth more. Also, feedback on if I did, in fact, get that right(the stuff above it).

Thank you very much.

Welcome..let me know what you think so far. [/quote]

>waves at frozen looking to see who is online<

Noodle


I understand this, but the sad part is this is an ‘after the fact’ learning point. But, it is what it is… something learned.


I suppose I will just have to accept it is a DJ. Why? She is the one telling me she can’t take another hit. She is the one telling me she can’t take one more once of pain She talks and describes how hurt she is, often multiple times in an attempt to MAKE SURE I hear here. I see this as reinforcement of what I have done in the past. Buffer it or she will explode. Water it down or you will be dealing with crazy woman. YOU say DJ. I say she told me these things. But, maybe I am nitpicking or I am just plain wrong. Fine. I will stop the DJs. She is not broken. She can handle anything in life as well as I can. So.. the truth is hers.



It is… yet it is so hard to do because of the reinforcement.



I would be angry. I would probably not be a big fan of the idea. I would probably say something. But, then again, I KNOW me and I KNOW I can handle an issue and I know when I am getting ANYWHERE near my breaking point. I trust me. I have a difficult time trusting others… in certain situations.


I understand that. I accept that. I screw up… she will get mad. And she would have the right.

..it is probably a good idea to NOT start the big items and then test this all out. It is way better when the issues are smaller and tempers don’t have to explode.


More later, but I need to go to bad and I am not in a good mood at all.

So, night.

Hope you are feeling better today..

Yes..an after the fact learning point..like..fire is hot..now you know..maybe some aloe on those blisters....

You suppose you will accept it is a DJ..but why?

Let me clarify.

I certainly did not say that Froz would handle grief or pain or whatever in a way that you find comfortable or even sane..I said that how she handles it is her domain..not yours..attempts to water it down are controlling behavior.

Essentially..I have to water this down SO THAT you will react in a way that *I* am comfortable with.

You don't have the right to attempt to manipulate her reactions to your liking. It is disrespectfull of her autonomy as an adult. You are not her parent..you are her spouse..next to..not ahead of.

Make sense?

Next you say that you feel that YOU can be trusted to handle things..you know where YOUR breaking point is..but you don't trust Froz in the same way.

She could well have expressed a similar sentiment. After all..her trustworthiness is not in question..you may have a good grasp of your weaknesses in some areas..but you have certainly displayed to her a history of gaps in those boundaries haven't you? What freaked her out the most was what seemed to be a point of pride for you. Something **HUGE** was going on and she didn't have a clue! 'Cause of your self control and reaction control. The thing that you feel allows you to "handle" issues in a manner that YOU find acceptable..has contributed to a very weak and strained link in the marriage.

I am. Today was not bad. Sadly, I have had to conduct two funeral details in two days, of which I was the detail commander. No one I knew and when it was all said and done, I was honored to do it. I hope that I and my team have made the moment special for the grieving family.


Yes… I could use some aloe.


I find it difficult to treat someone, even subliminally, different than how they describe themselves to me. Frozen tells me, over and over, how she can’t take even one more hit… so I walk around very gun shy. But, if you say it is a DJ then I need to look at this… but in my defense…. SHE is calling herself this. I am just echoing it.

Maybe I am missing the point.



I understand this. This goes back to other things we have covered above. Give it to her the way she asks for it. She has the right to respond any way she sees fit. And instead of controlling the behavior from her, I can just respond any way I see fit. (I added that last part, but it seems to fall in line with all this.)


Ok… that is confusing. So you are watering down how you are talking to me? Do you not trust how I will react? Maybe I will reach through the monitor and break your desklamp? I understand that you have a right to look out for yourself, but what could I possibly do to make you uncomfortable? Granted, I am not you, so my guess is you have a valid reason. Just curious what it is.


True, I am not her parent. And that does make sense.


So true. I have damn near nuked the marriage with this. No idea if we will make it. We still have tons of work and I could be sure of something if it were ONLY me…. Yet, not many relationships me and myself.

Thanks again. Talk to you later….

I find it difficult to treat someone, even subliminally, different than how they describe themselves to me. Frozen tells me, over and over, how she can’t take even one more hit… so I walk around very gun shy. But, if you say it is a DJ then I need to look at this… but in my defense…. SHE is calling herself this. I am just echoing it.

Maybe I am missing the point.

Yes..I suspect so..because as I pointed out in the previous post..the set up *is* the hit. At least that is how it appears to me. What *I* see and read from Frozen is that she can't take one more instance of her perception of reality being distorted.





Ok… that is confusing. So you are watering down how you are talking to me? Do you not trust how I will react? Maybe I will reach through the monitor and break your desklamp? I understand that you have a right to look out for yourself, but what could I possibly do to make you uncomfortable? Granted, I am not you, so my guess is you have a valid reason. Just curious what it is.

No, I'm not watering this down for your viewing pleasure..but I could if I wanted to. I have read enough from you to have a fairly good idea how to approach you in a way so as to get the response I want. I'll bet that feels uncomfortable doesn't it? I can be very manipulative also if I choose to. I told you that we share several traits..which is why I recognize them so readily. I choose not. I was referring to your approach but speaking in first person.



Thanks again. Talk to you later…. [/quote]

Later.

Frozen agrees with you completely. The 'set up' is the hit. I understand that idea. I am focusing on removing the set up. If I have something, no sugar, no set up, she just gets it. That said, however, my logical mind has in the past made the link that because SHE says she can't take another hit, and I associated bad news with hit, that it was bad news I was protecting her from. Not trying to lie to her, but trying to ease it onto her. I understand this idea though.. No set up. If I have something, tell her. It is pretty simple, really. The big key is to associate 'hit' with the set up, not the news.

I thought, after I read the second portion of your post that I had upset you or made you angry. Is this true? I just want to know, and if so, what it was that did it.

reads like you are taking an action and actually doing it.

If you would have added 'like' or something I might have caught it. If I understood what you said correctly.. sorry I didn't catch it the first time. I really thought you had some issue with being flat out brutal with me.

Anyway, I really appreciate that you took the time to post to me about this subject. It really has been helpful and enlightening. I think I am able to put my hands on something tangible, now. It is still pretty difficult to see the manipulation sometimes.

And yes, being manipulated does make one uncomfortable.

I need to become more knowledgeable of when I do it, so I can stop it.

When it is a way of life..and it is how things have been modeled for you..it can be very difficult to see.

Sort of like..if I didn't do *this* then what WOULD I do?

Then the *clincher* of..well how would that WORK?

Fixers. We make things work. Not always a good thing..Auschwitz worked. Gotta use discernment.

It really has more to do with removing the filters and just experiencing your life in the moment as much as you can and as genuinely as you can. Protect yourself a little less.

Has it ever occurred to you that you may be the WEAKER of the two? Froz is able to be RIGHT THERE in the midst and come out the other side..maybe worn and weary..but she comes out..you and I on the other hand tend to self protect to such a degree that we NEVER went through..always around, over, under..whatever it took.

Can you believe that H would RATHER witness me have a temper tantrum than watch me project?

Not that having tantrums is healthy..he is just more comfortable with that paradigm because to him it FEELS more genuine. Somehow the top of my head blowing off is reassuring that I am actually human after all.

To me it feels ridiculous..I rarely do it and always feel exposed and childish and sheepish afterwords.

Honestly I don't even believe that it IS any more genuine than any other construct. Me having a tantrum is only that.

On the other hand..I have come far enough in my personal journey to concede that it certainly *is* disconcerting to experience emotional distress with someone as "support" who is only able to go through the motions of being with you..'cause they actually already ran the gamut before you even knew anything was going on.

Just tossing some thoughts...probably a terrible day for me to post..but you got what you paid for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

Noodle, you are a very smart, intuitive woman. I am soooooooo happy that Pat posted his questions to you. Pat and Froz are two wonderful people whom I am heartily rooting for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Finding ‘another way’ has been difficult because I have had so many attributes that lead to the way I am. Interesting stuff, though.


Actually no. I never thought maybe I was the weaker person. THAT was an interesting thing to think about. I am still pondering that idea. I am glad you said it though.. very eye opening. Maybe it will turn into nothing for me, but it certainly felt like it came with a “huh” on my end of it… as in “well… how ‘bout that?”


What a weirdo. Lol… I am so kidding.


My head blowing off is scary to my wife. That has to do with her past. My head not blowing off when it seems it should is scary to my wife. That has to do with me… so I find myself in a really dicey juggling situation. Honesty and safety have to prevail. But it almost seems like it has to be one or the other. And then, me trying to achieve the correct balance is really irritating to me because it is strange and awkward. And the lack of normal in it is a constant conflict in my mind… and I am not a big fan of those. I just think life should be so much easier. I naïve approach, I’m sure.


Meaning they don’t walk with you? Meaning they are somewhere else when you are in ******? They saw it and sidestepped it, but you got stuck in it? I am trying to truly understand this last paragraph… and forgive me if I have much on my mind and the comprehension is lacking…

I have to admit that I am certainly getting more than I paid for from you and others. That is a fact. If it happens to be a compliment as well, then yay for things having more than one purpose in life. Lol.

Finding another way..has been for me..really about finding more of myself ..authentically..in healthy ways.

It was an eye openner for me..the day that I realized that my tendancy to use my talents for projection and foresight..were actually ALSO being used to protect myself from "real" intimacy. How can someone be intimate with me if they can't really SEE me? What if I can't see myself?

One time in IC.. my therapist asked me how I *felt* about something..and I drew an complete blank. I couldn't answer.

That was how he described me actually..blank..and that is how I Felt.

Blank until I choose how I"m going to cover the canvas..until I find my angle.

THE complete opposite of a reactionary..except in fact it IS a reaction..a reaction of disconnecting.


The part about perhaps being the weaker of the two..another shocker for me.

I noticed in bits and drabs and snippets that sort of all came together collectively that my H was a person who could be completely invested in the moment.

For example..the night he returned afetr his A..I would be hard pressed to describe his countenance..it was a mix of fear and pain and self loathing and I don't even know what else.

Everything he was thinking and feeling was right there on the surface.

I on the other hand..never even managed to cry. Not once.

Blank. Disconnect.

Every word I said and everything I did was completely the result of my intellectual problem solving ..I *could* not just be with him or offer any real affection..anger..nothing.

Who sounds weaker now?

As for being transparent and therefore scary..are we talking about being honest..or being out of control?

Even when having a fit I'm not out of control on a scary level..more cartoonish...more likely to stomp my foot [for real] than throw things.

I think that there are some situation in which it is appropriate for her to be afraid..such as..if she has been outbursting and spitting venom in anger..she *should* be afraid that you will decide you have had enough..and she should need to take responsibility for that and apologise in order to be back into your good graces..because that is a healthy dynamic..allowing unhealthy ones to continue for either of you just drives the marriage further apart.

You both have personal issues that work against you..everyone does. I can identify with you both in regard to the seeming existance of the unanswerable question of what will be *enough*..I think that there is much personal growth to be done before that question can be laid to rest.

Your mission..is not to discern and fix what is broken in Frozen..but to seek out and repair what is broken in yourself. It is not your job to protect her from herself..plus what a futile task! No one can get between Frozen and herself..you will only be pulled apart in the struggle. She will resent the interference..much a like stranger on the street interrupting a couple who are having an arguament.

Finding my taker and balancing it with my giver is a large part of my way. My giver goes into hypermode, and none of it seems real to frozen. Only recently have I allowed my taker to see light….

I also identify, completely, with the therapist example. I often have the same response. “How do you feel about blah blah?” ….”um… I don’t know”

I get the blank. I am looking for and defining my angle right now. In these days I have been in for the last months.

I used to see “not blowing a gasket” as strong. And it is. However, these rules I apply for work and for professional relationships and situations do not apply to a marriage or an intimate relationship.


Weaker… An eye opener for me as well. Something I have pondered. Still I do.

Invested in the moment. I still have a difficult time accepting what being invested in the moment looks like. It still crosses my mind that my wife is irrational, abrasive and other adjectives that I have told her and have hurt her feelings…but maybe what I SEE with her IS investment in the moment? Hard to tell when I have spent so much time living like I could walk away from a situation in 30 seconds and never come back. Unattached. As long as I got the things… the tangibles I wanted from the relationship, I would play along. I don’t feel that way or apply that now… but I did. I have. I have kept people at a distance… because I have allowed people to get close to me and not once has that turned out ok. Mother died… I was 9. Step mother was a terror… correct or not, my perception. First wife put me through ****** 2 Christmases in a row with divorce threats. The first time, I was home on Mid Tour from overseas. Here is something that pains me a bit actually. I serve in an armed force that provides the freedom that people take for granted half the time. I was a part of a huge organization that provides and protects a way of life. That sounds like being a part of something that mattered. Not to my ex-wife. That I had been gone for 8 months was just the end of the world for her. She is the one that really solidly taught me to think people were being irrational first… and then try to understand.


I have imagined this situation for me with frozen. This sounds really close to what I figured it would be like. Her being feeling. Me being cold and problem solving. Disconnected. Maybe already gone prior to even allowing myself to give a crap again. Blank and disconnected sounds about right to me.






Honestly… Not being there with him doesn’t sound like a weakness to me. It sounds like survival. Like your wounds in private, so to say. Outwardly calm and collected so as to most efficiently clean up the spill. I still need to think on this.


I will get back to this portion as it is late now and I have to get up quite early to go play G I Joe. I sometimes wonder what the ****** happened and how did I get this way. For the longest time I was emotional. I cried, yelled, talked, felt, hurt, worried, all of it. Now I just worry about solving problems. And angry about crappy circumstances. And other things.

Anyway… I am quite tired. I will get back tomorrow and try better, well thought out ideas then.

How have you changed your negotiation tactics to correct for this? That is info I could really use. I really negotiate with my giver… I ask for something, but I am so willing to give it up for something she wants. Anything to make her happy, you know. The problem is… it is not making her happy. So if there is anything you have learned to enable you to negotiate better, I could really use that.

As far as identifying with your husband and seeing the responses he made as one you ‘could’ have made… I don’t think frozen and I will ever see that. Do I want it? I suppose it would be a form of understanding and acceptance, but I don’t think it is something I would ask for. I don’t think it fits our situation, because I don’t think it fits her. I assert that because of our discussions. I wonder if that is something that must be achieved? I don’t really know. Right now I have made my mission complete honesty(easy… I don’t lie) and openness(really difficult because I have to let her see me)

On openness, my difficulties have been these. Knowing when something was worthy of telling her. I find it hard to know what to cover and what not to because it is unneeded. Making sure I cover things so as to not conflict avoid, but then being clumsy in delivery and hurting her feelings with an extremely aggressive remark. She and I actually had a laugh about this the other day. Instead of me just showing her real… hey… here it is… I have a tendency to overcompensate and show her real by … HEY!!! (WHACK) … RAWR!!!!! HERE IT IS!!!!! (jam it in her face and scare the crap out of her). My frustrations with being so ill equipped to do the things she wants get projected back at her. And it is frustrating… I consider myself an intelligent fellow… and being so unskilled at something after so much time spent talking about it is almost overwhelming. I continue to chug away though.



Detaching from my childhood was a needed tactic for me. I have carried it into adulthood. I continue to work on vulnerability, but it certainly is no easy task.


No… intimacy does not fare well in the face of distance.



I certainly considered practical reasons for staying, but I also have sentimental reasons. They are the majority, actually… but the big problem here with me is that even sentimental reasons seem to take a backseat to practical simply based on time of consideration. Loving someone and why seems a shorter discussion with me than the many ways to solve “what will I drive and where will I live” problems. I really am sentimental about frozen. She is a great person that I want to share my life with. Over time, I wonder if she will feel that I love her instead of I needed someone to help me with the mortgage. I really do love her…. But the coldness of logic does not read well in our house. Yet another difficulty I run into. Really, that I drag her through. The only thing that helps us these days is communication. Lots of it. Talking and talking… but even that takes some time to warm up.

I truly feel like I am broken in some areas and my wife is paying for it every day she decides to stay with me. I have luckily given up the desire to ‘look good’. I am only interested in having a good marriage with her and trying anything, and I mean anything, to get that reality.




Not exactly sure what to go into more in depth… but as far as my feelings, I used to cry, feel sad, and a number of other things. Some of it has stayed with me. Read any post where I am trying to defend someone because I thought they got picked on, like the coach thread from several months ago. Defending “weaker” people is something I have carried my whole life. Maybe I am terrible at it, but my desire is driven by care. I want to protect people. Sometimes from themselves. I realize that often, who am I to make the determination that they need help? I don’t know. It is a feeling. Stop picking on this poor person, you mean people. That kind of thing. I guess attachment to a situation because I found it unjust. Being upset at the actions of the many against the few. Maybe that is something….

I wish I could cry. Funny thing is, I do. But not at things that upset me… although I cried a little bit at the funeral of my late Grandfather. I cry at good things. Beauty in the extreme. Kindness. The Budweiser commercial played at the super bowl this or a few years ago with the people applauding soldiers returning from overseas in the airport drew a tear. It was touching to me. It is a massive sacrifice to serve in the armed forces and all too often, that sacrifice is grossly ignored. Well… until the past few years where I must admit that I can not walk through an airport without being stopped and thanked for my service. Not that I expect that and frankly, it is kind of awkward for me. The sacrifice is to provide and protect freedom for a people regardless of what or who they are while my own family pays a hefty price in my absence, my death, my wounds or any other thing that might happen. But, with that said, I chose this life and that is why it is awkward for me to get stopped in the airport. Wouldn’t they do it? Wouldn’t they serve if they believed in a way of life and the protection of it? I do. The United States is the greatest nation and I would die for it. I have carried that belief for a long long time. I could go on and on about serving in the Army. Sorry for the tangent. Point is, I do cry… but only at the most beautiful representations of the greatest human spirit, it seems. The good stuff. The bad stuff simply makes me angry… which leads back to the protection of the ‘lesser’ person. I get angry and want to step in the way. I can take it. And so on….

All of this being a real obstacle for intimacy. Getting so angry about things like this or getting so touched by things like this is in no way tied to my wife. She wants to be the most important thing to me. I understand that because I want to be the most important thing to her. My inability to show the emotions with regard to her is really a difficulty.

I have these emotions with her. I see the beauty. I want to cry when she is so hurt. I want to hold her when she needs me. I want to do anything she wants. But, I try to remain strong and project strength. In doing that, I hide my weaknesses. I hide myself.

I guess I have rambled enough and probably confused you. I fear my wife will read this and say later,’I didn’t know that’. If so… then so be it because she needs to know me. If this is the first time she has heard the thought, then here it is and we can discuss it. I am still learning and trying to be open. Open… my greatest difficulty thus far.

I hope you are able to shed some light on the negotiation tactics. Possibly you could give me a pointer or two on how you are open with your husband. How do you let him ‘know’ you? You and I are similar and yet, not. I do appreciate the time you spend typing to me.

Have I changed my negotiation style?

Absolutely.

How? With intention. Lots of intention.

See..I think it ties into independent behavior.

Negotiating with myself instead of H. Also..self betrayal..negotiating for what I think I *should* want rather than what I *actually* want.

Then just giving my giver the boot..stuff her in the trunk just like I stuffed my taker previously.

Simple? Yes. Easy? Nope.

Shall I give an example?

We were planning a trip this weekend..not one we had been planning for more than a few weeks but we were both looking foreward to it.

A few days before my H comes to me and says he is nervous that we will not have enough money on the trip.

I agree with him..because I really like to have a wide margin..being close the limit is nervous making for me.

It wasn't that we didn't have enough money simply to go..but he was concerned that we wouldn't have enough to DO a lot of things he wanted to do on the trip.

His initial offer on the table as a solution was to delay paying rent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

For me that is not and never would be an acceptable alternative.

However I have accepted similar situations in the past because I was dealing with my giver and not being honest and frankly self betraying.

Resentment ahoy. I hated doing it..and I lost respect for him and for myself and..and..and..the list could go on and on.

What a high price to pay for such a small issue.

Now that I have gained some wisdom in this area..and enforce standards and boundaries I simply said..that is not an option that I am comfortable with and I am not going to agree with it.

We talked about other options..should we camp so as not to have to pay for a room?

Should we bring our own food?

How many activities did we both want to be able to do in order to feel the trip was satisfying?

How much do those cost?

What about gas?

All sorts of questions that we didn't have answers to got asked and figured out and the final conclusion was that we had just not planned adequately to be able to go at this time.

We still wanted to go though.

So we looked ahead on the calendar for dates we thought might be a better option and came up with a financial plan to cover the expense. Made the dates and the figures line up.

No one has to sacrifice..no one has to be resentfull BECAUSE we were honest and even brutal with regard to what we really wanted and expected.

It could have gone badly.

I could have agreed to a plan that I felt guilty and resentfull about...he could have agreed to take a trip that wasn't exciting enough to be worth it to him either of those would have fed bad feelings.

Instead we came up with something that we are both enthused about.

POJA does work..it's hard but it does work..trouble is that people tend to work against themselves when they should be backing themselves and for themselves when doing so is self destructive.

If you have a cure for that in pill form I want to be first in line.

It is different for everyone in makeup I'm sure..but I really think it is just the result of various reactions to stimulus of all sorts..wherever your personal weaknesses might come into play.

What advice can I offer you..from the perspective of someone with a few shared traits?

Use my talents for me instead of against me.

If you have the education..which you do.

If you have the ability to detach..which you do.

Then you also have the ability to look at yourself and determine whether or not what you are DOING is in agreement with what you KNOW and BELIEVE is going to be fruitfull or hurtfull.

You have the ability to pull the plug on your immediate reactions..you know that..you are no slave to your emotions..when you feel the urge to conflict avoid..name it..when you feel the urge to act with your giver..name it..just bringing those things out into the open takes a good deal of their power and sway from them in my experience.

I have actually said..I feel nervous..I want to tell you what I think you want to hear..but I also know that I will be resentfull if I do/say/agree to this.

That brings my H onto the same page and lets him have that firsthand intimate knowledge that he otherwise wouldn't have because the truth is..I am not going to be running around emoting as a rule. I am not and never have neem saying that you should or could change your basic personality into something else in order to be intimate.

You are still you and always will be..so will Froz..it is not fair to ask her to change herself into someone else either.

The idea is to try and refocus with intent those personal issues that misalign you with each other.

Now..it *is* more of an issue for her because you are on the other side of the line with regard to infidelity.

However..I can also relate to Froz..and say that I *have* betrayed my H by not negotiating fiercely and agreeing to things I was not really on board with without him knowing it..and thus feeding a ton of resentment which on occasion completely alterred my vision with regard to him as a person.

I think that she has done this also [getting married with a heart full of resentment and false expectations comes to mind] and if she is able to swallow that information [jagged though it is] and process it she will have a much clearer understanding of the hows and whys of ANY person making bad choices for bad reasons.

I addressed that briefly in my last post when I was talking about being able to identify with him and his feelings and reactions during the A time.

I can't swallow it in one piece. I can't go from zero to sixty in a nanosecond..but neither could he..neither did he.

When I look at it it sections..bite size pieces..one at a time I really and truly CAN see myself making the wrong choice at every given point and then of course..each decision that you make builds on itself and alters your course..by tiny degrees. If it was all at once every person living would fall on their butt from the direction shift..stagger around disorientedly..and work furiously to right themselves.

Do I think it is necessary? It was for me. If I can't get my mind around it..can't understand it to any degree..then I have no ability to empathize and no ability to RELAX because I feel so vulnerable. Like I've been diagnosed with an incurable fatal disease that will take the rest of my life to kill me..but it has no name and no description and no origen and no symptoms.

That is too many unknowns for me. I mention this because of Froz and her fear of distorted reality or perspective..for me..being able to ingest this piece by piece and find myself in it..allowed me to find my action place..my level ground...the place of getting off my knees and onto my feet..trusting that what I see and feel lines up with what has occurred to a reasonable extent. Her mileage may vary.

As for you ..I don't know..overemoting?

Throwing the info out at her instead of handing it to her?

Well..are you being honest? Is it really the same info..not exaggerated?

If she's laughing about it..she probably isn't threatened by it over much.

What does she say?

How do YOU feel about it..and why do you think it takes that overreaction in order to get it out on the table?

Are you aware that you are stuffing? Is it related to her approach? Are you being harrassed into exploding with the info?

I'd need more description to venture any real guesses.

Regarding sentiment and logic..I loved H too..I'm not saying I didn't have sentimental attachments..I'm saying I didn't stay because of them.

Does that make sense?

I'm sure H would be thrilled if I said that I stayed because I loved him..that I couldn't live without him..that my passion burns hotter than the fire of a thousand suns.

However..had that been the case..had I been acting on emotion..I'd be in jail right now.

Cold logic can be your friend and save your @ss..it's just not good company.

The truth was..I was extremely invested..I was going to take a huge loss if I walked..in all areas of life..so if it could be fixed..I would do well to put my effort there.

Those cold facts held me during my own fog and fantasy period..and only just barely I might add.

Just another example that it isn't inherently a bad thing to be wired this way..it just has weak areas and difficulties like every other trait.

I had to chime in to respond to the part about crying for extreme beauty and such.

Ditto.

I am more likely to cry as a result to something that I am NOT invested in personally than something that I am.

Violin and cello music would be an example.

Poetry that speaks to me.

Great epic *stuff*. The budweiser commercial would be an example.

Once a touching moment on the Simpsons..but I was pregnant at the time..so I'm not owning that one. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

However there have been occasions in which I made a conscious choice to engage when my initial reaction was to withdraw.

The one I remember with most clarity was when I had a ratherlate miscarriage.

It was a jumble of conflict for me..because initially I was not happy about being pregnant.

Extreme fertility is a hallmark of my family just as difficulties with fertility is for others.

I felt trapped..scared..angry..resentfull toward the baby.. you name it..every ugly emotion that a parent would be ashamed to admit.

Then..just when I had accepted it and attached..I miscarried.

I actually got to *see* the dead baby on the ultrasound screen because the tech didn't expect it and didn't turn it away.

I felt numb..of course..at first..how else would I react?

Then standing in the parking lot..feeling the coldness on my face [it was October] and seeing my hair fly around and catch the sun ..I remember standing with my hands on the railing and actually thinking..if I do not experience this..I will regret it the rest of my life..so I made a conscious choice to allow the feelings..all of them..guilt..relief..sorrow..loss..failure too.

Weirdly enough it never once occurred to me to call my H at work and tell him. I mean it occurred to me..but not as a viable option.

After all..he would be upset..and there was nothing he could do anyway..why not wait until he got home?

Sound familiar?

So I did..and then we were weirdly out of sync..because he was at the starting point and I had been processing all day.

Plus there really was no good way to deliver this particular message so it had an ackward and artificial quality to it.

Sound familiar?

Now I recognize that as being extremely controlling and selfish and just..weird.

The death of his child was not something he needed to know about right away? [we were very close in timeframe to it being a still birth officially..only a few weeks away]

He's not allowed to get upset about it? Even if it is at work?

So..I still didn't handle it right in total..but at least I did actually grieve..despite my family attempting to diminish and make that grief seem silly. They aren't comfortable with emotions either.

It was Hs family who embraced and comforted and even encouraged grief as legitamite.

SIL actually cried openly in front of me..almost for me..and I will never forget that. She's an empathizer for sure. What a stark contrast..that is about the time that I began to seriously question the wisdom of my reactions and expectations..it isn't when I made most of the changes..but the seed sprouted..let's put it that way.


Well it seems I have given you more than a point or two..if you are not in a text induced coma yet I applaud the effort.

Let me know what you think.