I am working on a study of God's view of marriage, divorce and re-marriage. It will be similar to the one i have in my tag line below. I heard this series of sermons several years ago, and since my marriage is headed toward D, I thought I might get that out there. Especially with the arguments that have come up on several threads here concerning re-marriage, marriages that start with adultery, etc.

So, stand by. I hope to have that up here over the next week or two.

One note I do want to post is concerning Christians judging. I will go into this more in this series. But, I want to say that those that think that the Bible says Christians are not to judge have not read their Bible completely.

Christians are to judge. We are commanded to judge. In the end days, Jesus will allow us to judge the demaons and unbelievers. As a matter of fact, the BEST judges are those that are following Jesus and listening to Him.

We make judgments all of the time. About many things. All of us...believers and unbelievers. The issue the Bible raises, as some have brought up, is that Christians are not to judge hypocritically. Now what does that mean?

Does it mean that if we have sin, that we cannot judge any other sin? Of course not, because all of us have sin. And God would have never commanded Christians to judge knowing we were sinners, if only those with no sin could judge.

The Bible does command Christians to judge. "Judge ye a righteous judgment." But we are not to judge hypocritically. Now, what does that mean?

How about this...if I am guilty of murder, I have no rigght to judge someone else for murder. does that mean I cannot judge someone who is guilty of adultery? Of course not. If I have never committed adultery, then I am free to judge that person.

Jesus said that those that were sinless could cast the first stone at the woman caught in adultery, right? Wrong! What He was speaking of was those that had not committed THAT sin could cast the first stone. How do we know? Well, right after He said this, He began writing in the sand. What did He write?

Well, it is very evident what He wrote...because as soon as he wrote it, they all left. What He was writing was "Pete and Nancy" "Joe with Betty", etc. He was calling out all those guys in the crowd and basically saying "I know of the adultery you have had in your lives. And as you can see, I have named all of you and your OW."

You see, after they were spelled out on the ground there, they realized that if they were to stay and cast that stone...that after they killed the woman, they would have to get in the pit themselves and be killed by stoning.

So, they all left!!

Jesus could have stoned her. Why didnt He? He didnt stone her because the law had not been met. The law clearly stated that BOTH affair partners were to be stoned. And since she was caught in the act of it, then without the man, Jesus let her go.

Judgment of sin is NOT condemnation! It does not mean we cannot forgive, or show mercy and grace.

But those that believe that Christians are not to judge have not taken Scripture in its entirety...and thus, are in error.

Anyway, as soon as I can start getting this up here...on the issue of divorce and re-marriage...I will.

Standing in His Presence

While we don't always see eye to eye on religious interpretation...the statement above should be one that EVERY long time poster on these boards takes home and meditates on...

Judgement with grace
Grace with judgement

In balance...

Thoughts for all of us...on both sides of the equation...

Kudos, MM

Mortarman,
I agree 100% with your interpetation re: the Bible and
judging.
For me, it is the degree to which certain people relish
the pleasure of laying judgement on others (the visual
of a cat licking cream from its whiskers comes to mind)
that leads me to believe that they are too close to the
pain of infidelity to fairly judge anything having to
do with infidelity.
JMHO

Oh I believe there is a balance. That being said, I have no problem calling something that is wrong...wrong! Ask Mrs. W. When she came on here, she was a foggy WW. So did soem of the other FWSs that are still on here. And I wouldnt put up with their fog. What was wrong...was wrong. And I told them so.

But just to sit there and say "repent or die," isnt helpful. We must also continue to show the way of repentence. And it is thru that repentence that they will (we all will) receive the grace and mercy that we need.

Too many people do not understand what repentence means. My wife was never repentent...never. Sure, she might say she was sorry. But sorrow isnt enough. Repentence is threefold:

* Expressing sorrow and asking for forgiveness from God and from the person(s) they transgressed against;
* Turn back to the right way, as God has outlined;
* Make amends for their sin.

Without all three, it is just smoke...just fog. And I, just like many on here, have little patience for that. For the WS that truly wants to "get it," then all of the grace and mercy in the world should be shown.

For the WS that wants to justify and continue in their sin, then I take Christ's view of that person. He says when He meets the person who never repented, He will say "I never knew you."

And for that person, judgment will then turn to condemnation. And eventually...damnation.

Standing in His Presence

Respectfully, I agree with your interpretation regarding the ight to judge. It can be argued and interpreted in any way a thinking and clever person would like to do it.

You clearly state that only under certain conditions, in God's eyes, judging is acceptable. IMO, those conditions have not been met for the people doing the attacking here and it is very upsetting to see the vitriol that gets tossed about on the assumption (by the person doing it) that it has been met.
That is what my own argument is about. They are beating people up and trying to validate it by using Christianity, which, IMO, is skewing the intentions stated in the Bible for what is being done and why it is being done.
I am not a hypocrite to point out to someone that their "judging" is not actual judging in the strictest sense of the word. Being a judge implie balance and fairness to all parties. I don't see that happening here in some cases.
I agree with paige. Some of us are too close to our pain and fear from infidelity to be sound judges about infidelity.

Sorry if that bothers some of you. It is my opinion and only that, based on my own studies and experiences.

Mortarman

I hope you don't mind me interjecting a few quick queries and comments about judgement.


As an athiest, I'm a bit perplexed as to the purpose of the judgement you're commanded to do.

Let's just assume, for a moment, that we're not talking about judgement in a legal sense where there are enforceable consequences (fines, prison, the death penalty). Instead, let's assume we're talking about the 'judgement' that is often discussed on this board.

In a social sense, it seems reasonable to judge people by their actions (or whatever criteria) to determine who you want to spend time with or who you want to allow access to you or your family. If you know someone is committing adultery, then it seems reasonable to me that you might avoid those people. On a message board, it seems reasonable not to post to people that who's values and ideas you find offensive. Or, I suppose, it might translate into trying to explain your point of view and the merits of your value system. I don't really understand any point in name calling or other types of provocative behavior (and I'm not suggesting that you do any of that, I'm just including them for the discussion).

It appears to me, and outsider, that the purpose of judgement as a commandment would either be 1.) to protect yourself from unsavory influences, 2.) to punish the offender as much as you are able or 3.) to rehabilitate or reform the offender or at the very least to discourage the offender.

Of those three purposes, only 1 and 3 seem to be consistent with the 'love the sinner, hate the sin' philosophical bent that Christianity seems to espouse. Punishment seems to be the province of the Christian God rather than his followers. Of course, I might be wrong (I don't claim to be a Christan scholar).

Assuming, for the sake of discussion, that I AM right about judeo-Christian ethics, then the question seems to be: what is a way to judge that fits within the ethics of the religion?

Should judgement be protective?

remove yourself from unsavory influences.

Should judgement be punitive?

Attempt to inflict pain, discomfort, anxiety, etc in order to punish the offender.

Should the judgeent be rehabilitative?

Attempt to persuade or convince the offender of the severity of their offense and offer solutions or suggestions that lead him/her back to (or into) grace.

I'm generally less interested in whether or not people judge -- but rather their behavior after they have judged. Judging and then inflicting punishment just seems like such an .. ineffective and hostile way to go through life. I wonder whether or not, when people ask others not to judge, they are really calling people to behave in ways that are more consistent with rehabilitation/recovery or protection/withdrawal rather than punishment.

Just a few musing thoughts -- none of which are projected towards your behaviors, Mortarman. (nor any other particular person's behavior, for that matter)

Mys

your friendly, neighborhood athiest

Good point. God says "judge ye a righteous judgment." That means, judge according to what He says, what He wants. His will. If you are relishing in the judgment, then you are not following Christ.

And thus, you are a hypocrite.

That doesnt mean that you cant be harsh, or be forceful in your judgment. Jesus went thru the temple whipping people and turning over their money tables. Thats a pretty harsh judgment!

So, just because someone is harsh, doesnt mean it isnt a righteous judgment. I am harsh with my kids when they really screw up. Doesnt mean I dont love them. Does mean that I will destroy them (they may "feel" like I am destroyign them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />). Doesnt mean that I wont show them mercy and grace afterwards.

Standing in His Presence

It's not the coward's way, that's fo'shizzle

Many argue and misinterpret the Bible. If I have, I am always open to anyone that can show me in Scripture where I have erred. I have been wrong before!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I think I know of some of the posts you speak of, and in my opinion, I dotn see vitriol as much as I see people standing up for right and wrong. I might have missed it, so if you can point me to some of it, maybe I might agree with you. But, do read my last post...because harsh judgment is not always vitriol.


Again, I wont speak for all of the posts or posters, but you would have to give me some examples. Jesus "beat people up" in the temple...He flogged them. That's pretty harsh. But very, very justified!! So, I would say that harsh judgment has to do with the sin and the sinner. And if the person doing the judgment is doing a righteous judgment...it can also be harsh. Now, if they are judging harshly just to pile on someone...that's different.


Again, you would have to show me where this happened. I am not saying it didnt...just that I didnt see it. Were soem harsh? Sure. And I think most of it was justified. At least what I read. One note: fairness does not mean being nice. fairness does not mean letting sin just be a "grey area" thing. Sin is black and white. If it is sin, it is wrong. Period.


That is possible...


Opinions are fine here. I have issued a few of my own on here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I also know that the only opinion that ultimately counts is God's. Hopefully, I am aligned with His. If not, I ask Him to just hit me upside my head and get me back in line!

Standing in His Presence

Ah mercy and grace.
Ok, after it is pointed out to the lady whose marriage began with an affair that she did something unethical, and she says, yes youare right, I have come to understanding...
what then?
How about some mercy and grace for her?

As melody said earlier, people who commit such immoral and outrageous acts, should be in prison...I disagree with that, though it certainly reminds me of the Platonic stance that people who commit damaging acts are either lacking in understanding or crazy. Those who lack understanding should be taught and those who cannot be taught should be put somewhere where they cannot harm society because they are insane.

It seems that those who have learned and have been taught and who come back for more education and greater understanding should not be beaten up for the past mistake after a certain point. They have already learned.

It brings us to the idea that myschae then presents, the third option which is to punish someone and inflict pain on them for their mistakes.

I would be willing to bet that though many of us may not have had an affair, how many of us have been susceptible to various other sins against the people around us. Should be all be punished endlessly even if we come to understanding, offer remorse?

The problem, as I see it, is that what is happening here in that locked thread is that somebody is preaching to the choir.

What is it that people really want to address? The past mistake that the person in error has learned from ( and that some posters are being nasty to them about despite the admission of guilt and the undersatnding now in place) or the current situation that the repentent sinner is trying to heal?

I dunno.
I just want to say that in all of the time I have been on these boards you are the only person who has openly discussed this sort of thing from what seems to me to be a true Christian standpoint of compassion. I don't view you as weak, not having a strong faith or being a pushover because of it.
Thank you so much.

No, it is not! I have GREAT respect for the FWSs on here. To have overcome their sin, to have repented...to have done all they could to make amends for what they did...that wasnt easy. As a matter of fact, it was damned hard! Cowards need not apply.

And most know that with what they did, some things will remain. Some consequences will remain. And while those consequences do hurt and you do feel for them, those consequences ar still theirs.

Never, ever ask the Lord for what you deserve!

This is why marriages that start with an affair end. Almost all of them. The whole marriage was based on a lie. Based on rebellion. It would be much easier for a WS to save their marriage, then to make a marriage based on adultery work.

Dr. Harley speaks to this. While marriages that begin this way CAN make it, he does admit that they will have a much steeper hill to climb.

Just my thoughts.

Standing in His Presence

Before I continue to post to you- I should in fairness
let you know that I am a repentant former OW who 3+ years
ago did marry my affair partner.
I have chosen with the support of my family and with the
full reconciliation of my faith to endure that steep climb.

I am here to learn.

This is a LIE. I said people who don't know right from wrong should be in prison, as a tongue in cheek statement. You and I both know I never said this woman should be in prison. If you are going to quote me, be honest and quit the lying, please.

Great question!!!!!!!!!! And the longer answer will be in the sermons I post soon. The short of it is this...has she been repentent? Has she expressed her sorrow and asked for forgiveness? Has she changed her ways? And has she made amends? If she hasnt met this, then she hasnt been repentent. And if she hasnt been repentent, then she should not expect grace or mercy. From anyone.


Not sure that was what she meant, Black. But I will let her chime in on what she meant. I read something different, but I wont speak for ML.


Aaahhhh. But what about the guy who committed murder, who is on death row. but comes to Jesus, is saved...and has learned that what he has done is wrong. Should he still not be executed? Or should he just be let go, since he is repentent?

Sometimes, the consequences of sin still come...even with grace. In this life. The issue as I saw it was that a person that begins an adulterous marriage should expect consequences. I thought that was what ML and others were saying. I may be wrong. But if a person enters one of those relationships, and then it happens to them...I mean, what did thay expect?


Again, not sure what that means. Grace and mercy may still come and still have consequences attached to it in this life.


Again, the point I thought they were making wasnt that they should be punished endlessly. I know ML and the others too well to know that isnt/wasnt their objective. But, if a person starts an adulterous marriage, they may hope that it will turn out alright. But they should not expect it to. Even the odds speak to the fact that if you expect no adultery and a good marriage out of a marriage that began with adultery, you are deceiving yourself.


Again, they may want to heal it. But some are trying to say that, for example...if you drive drunk and wrap your car around a tree and are paralyzed, dotn expect to get up and walk again. Even if you are sorry. Even if you have learned. Sure, there might be a miracle (and marriages that start with adultery, that succeed...truly are miracles). But to count on it, to expect it...is folly.


No problem. I try to side with Christ. I dotn always do so, of course.

But again, please understand...in the case of the person we are all talking about here...what should be expected is exactly what she got. The consequences came for her sin. That doesnt mean I am happy about it. It is ALL very sad. But it wasnt an accident.

Some people are handicapped or paralyzed today because of their sins. And while I do wish they didnt have their afflictions, I also know for some of them...they caused them. And while we can tend to them and show compassion and grace to them...we should never allow them to lessen the fact that the consequences they got were deserved. And earned.

The key is to get them to have a life that follows Christ even thru their afflictions. Thru their consequences. To say "I know that I deserve this, Lord. I know I caused this." And then, as Jesus said, after he asked for the cup to pass..."nevertheless, Your will be done."

JJ should be asking that His will be done in this...not that he heals her marriage with the OM.

Standing in His Presence

It is not a lie.
You said people.
I didn't say you said the woman in question. Please re-read what I wrote.

I would appreciate any efforts on your part to stop the abusive attacks on me.
Thank you.

And as long as you do know what you have done and where you stand...and are willing to follow the Lord and accept any consequences that may come from what you have done...then you are more than welcome!! And the Lord will walk you thru this all.

Standing in His Presence

MM, I would refer you to the JustJilly thread that was locked this morning where BlackOpal did this very thing [twisted scripture]. She took the scripture "Judge not lest ye be judged" and took it out of context by lecturing others they should not JUDGE. [only she is qualified to judge, I guess] It was pointed out to her that one could only come to that conclusion by leaving off the subsequent passage which clearly makes the case that it was admonition against HYPOCRISY, not judgement.

When this was pointed out to our dear BlackOpal, she resorted to personal attacks rather than explaining that rather glaring PROBLEM in her "interpretation."

BlackOpal, there is much twisting and turning in your points here, and you should not be proud of that.

You are a liar, dear, and as long as you continue to misquote me this will be pointed out.

So what are the "outward signs of an inward change" that would be the indication to the REST of the world that she repented?

Divorcing her previous affair partner?

Remaining married, but expressing her remorse and regret to the FBW?

There seemed to be many people clamoring on the other thread that the entire marriage was amoral and wrong that it seemed like that was the only form of repentencet that THOSE people would accept.

Does she have to show that repentence HERE ON THIS SITE, PUBLICALLY, IN THE FORM DEMANDED BY THE MASSES for help here?

Or what?

I stayed out of that other fight...it's the same battle I've had monthly on this forum forever...no point fighting something that no one will take action to change.

The answers will be posted soon, Owl!

Standing in His Presence