Hi HL,

Rollercoaster... remember? You keep seeing flashes of good in your W... give it time.

DO address this in MC tonight. Straight up--- your W does NOT want to get a D (you offered D or MC, she pushed for MC, remember?). This gives you power. Ask MC why you should stay if she's vowing not to love you. Talk about love.. this is what is missing. Tell MC you dont feel love from her. Put this in their court, OK?

I'll bet you she does not think you are hurt or vunerable. Tell them you cried in dispare today. The truth is never wrong... tell them your truth!

I've logged on remotely, you would not believe where I am right now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I'll probably not be back till Monday, I didnt want to seem flakey <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Hang tuff, remember the big picture, and work on your back-up plan. Nothing has changed since last week, she just verbalized what she was already (not) doing. WS's babble, she's still VERY self-centered and this will not change quickly. BUT IT CAN CHANGE, and that she's in MC and AA are good signs that she's got potential. Do you know how many BS's never get that far? Please take care - Dru

HL, your strength in your situation has been a big lift for me in my own situation. Dru's right, its the rollercoaster. This is nothing new to you.

If you dont mind me asking, what do you feel her intentions are by going to MC if they aren't to fix the marriage?

My truth. I don't want to cry. I want to laugh. I don't want pain and hurt. I want joy.

I don't want to feel like leftovers. I want to feel like a five course dinner.


Potential? Where. AA in itself makes her feel good. She gets 3 hours a night two days a week to go out. The other day she told me about hitting rock bottom. No crap it wasn't the A you blame your drinking on. You waited another 2 and a half years to hit rock bottom. Geez. BTW she started AA after the A for the second time but when she realized I wasn't going to D her she went right back.

MC? Yes I don't want to get out of my comfort zone. You do most of the work why would I want to leave this. I don't put in nearly what I take out who else on this planet would do that. I might actually have to make an effort to please someone to get what I want.

She blew me out of the water last week. I asked for two stinking things from her after the A. Two. Neither one requiring any extra effort. NO EFFORT. After three years of promising she would do them and I say she has but hasn't she says "I don't like doing that." Then why promise? Why say you will? Not once not twice but many many times.

And again I repeat there was no extra effort involved. So what do I ask for soemething that requires less then no effort? Is winning me back not worth some effort?

Heck MC in itself takes some effort but it was either that or the divorce so she picked the one that would be less uncomfortable.

I am just tired of this. I really really am.

Lang,

We were posting at the same time.

Why go to MC? Because not going would take her out of a very darn comfy situation.

She talks a big game about being ok on her own but she would not be able to do the things she liked. No more new clothes, no more nail and hair appointments. No built in babysitter for her meetings. Nobody to cook dinner. Nobody to run their tails off making the life she has more comfortable.

Hang in there HL, it might be a low in the rollercoaster. I know I've had days where I wanted to throw in the towel only to feel completely different days later. I agree with Dru that you should tell all of this in MC.

Normal,

Thanks. Yes it is a rollercoaster and this is a low.

I am going to tell them MC about it.

I just think that at somepoint over the last 3 years I should be able to point to one thing I have asked her to do that wasn't like pulling teeth.

When I say that I don't even mean for me. I mean if I asked her to get rid of a trigger in our home it was never done the first time I asked. If and when it was done she made a production like I asked her to give me her first born. LOL.

I really think a lot of it has to do with how the 3 years she lied to me is playing into it as well. Some of the things I thought were bad enough became even worse after each new truth came out.

I am not focusing on the things I wanted her to do to make things up either. I am thinking back wondering how she could let my YS come into my home with a football the OM gave him then refuse to get rid of it.

At the time I didn't know about the A yet but why fight me to get rid of it.

I can't explain it well but it seems like to me what she did wasn't wrong unless I knew the truth. If that makes sense.

She acted according to what I knew not what the truth was.

Hey, HL, I was dropping in an checking on you before I got to some serious work.

Looks like you hit a little rough patch...as strong as you are, I'm sure that you will be fine...I hear your frustrations.

Well, I'll get back over here when I can. you have a wonderful day...it's beautiful here!

Well last night did not go as planned at MC but it was good and opened the door for the big discussion.

The MC asked how the week was and my FWW started talking. I smiled when the MC was trying to hurry her a little in getting to her point. As she talked he kept saying OK, OK so you..... In other words get to the point. LOL. I thought he was going to explode.

He asked me what I wanted to talk about I said the lingerie issue. Meaning I asked her to do something she said she would and then didn't. This was really a way for me to open the door to the PA behavior. She didn't want to talk about it.

He said well it is important to him so we should at some point maybe later on in the session.

So later on came and he brought it up.

My FWW said "when he asks me to do it then I don't want to. It's not that I won't but I don't like to be told what to do. When I want to I will and the more he asks me to do it the more I don't want to do it. It is like he expects me too so I don't"

OMG I said that is exactly what I have been trying to say. She just told the MC she is PA without telling him she is PA. It was at the end of the meeting and I said next session that is what I want to talk about. I want to talk about that statement. I asked him to write it down.

The other thing we talked about was her not taking ownership of her part. I said "I take ownership and will never say what I did was right. However, I wasn't always the one that started the name calling and escalation. There were several times she started that." Her first reaction was she didn't. She pointed out that I used the words never and always and we shouldn't use those words. The MC told us that earlier on. You shouldn't say your S always or never does something.

He looked over his notes and said "In that situation the use of those words is probably appropriate." I would hope your H thinks it is never ok to call you names. He also said he wasn't always the one to start the name calling are you saying he was?" Ok so now she is backed into a corner she can't say yes and she can't say no. That question was danced around for quite some time.

I then talked about the whole car incident and how she demand I let her out of the car because I got a little snippy with her. She claimed she didn't know I was upset. I said I walked through the door and said "I am so pissed off right now because of the car." Um how do I make myself clearer then that? So what do you talk about? The car. Can you say sore subject.

Then we went over exactly what happened. He asked her did she really think disrupting the days plan by leaving was an appropriate reaction? She said no. I just didn't want to be around him.

He asked how it ended. I said I explained to her that I was upset and that she I shouldn't have been short with her but it was a really sore subject. He said how did you get to that point. I said I kept thinking the words "Do not escalate until I calmed down enough to explain it to her." He said really. I said yes. He said well you did the right thing. I said well I wasn't going to ruin the day for my family.

He asked me if I felt like when I was upset if the people around me know it. I said yes. I will tell them I am not in a great mood right now so if you could just give me some room I would like that. Or be on your best behavior for a while. He said does she do that. I said no isn't that what we were just talking about. He said how does that make you feel. Like I am not allowed to ever be in a bad mood. That I need to deal with whatever life deals me and still be the rock.

He said what would you like for her to do. I said give me space and not touch on sore subjects. He asked if I did that for her. I said absolutely. If she is in a bad mood I give her space if she asks and I certainly do not touch on subjects that might upset her. He said well that is a good idea.

God I can't wait until next week.

Hey HL,

Hang in there! It sounds like you are going through the worst bit... when your eyes are fully opened and you see the ugly things exactly as they are...

I think Dru put it best:



This situation calls for absolute directness. It sounds like you have done exactly that in trying to get the discussion around to talking about her P/A responses. That, instead of hearing requests, which she, as an independent adult, can CHOOSE to fulfil (or not).... she hears demands that threaten her autonomy. So she rebels, like a toddler or teenager.

It sounds like she has trouble perceiving that she is responsible for her choices. Its her skewed filter. This is something that a C can point out to her. If she is hearing the same message in several places, such as at AA as well... theres a chance that she will get it. It may take time. You may not want to wait that long?

About her remorse... she sounds like she is so caught up in her own pain. She has not understood or moved on from her past. She is still living it, in her mind. She sees everything through its filter. So, I imagine its going to be really difficult for her to empathise with anyone else's pain at the moment. Its just where she's at. Again, maybe you can't wait for her to catch up? It sounds like she is making steps, with MC and AA... she is trying, in her way.

If you are near to the end of your patience, though, the most honest and fairest thing to do is to lay it out directly in MC. Sometimes its surprising what other people can accomplish when they are really motivated!
Please, keep on looking after yourself... and don't forget detachment, with love.

Smur,

Thanks. Yes I am caught in a boomerang relationship.

Sometimes it becomes so overwhelming then I come here vent. Jump up and down and violla I am centered.

I have it on the docket for next week to discuss this.

The funny thing is when she made the comment she didn't realize the box she opened. It will be interesting because this is where she will either move forward or retreat.

So I am again centered and feeling better.

To be honest I don't know if I can wait that long but heck I have been a big enough jacka55 to stay this long whats another week or so. LOL

Hey there,
I quite like the name change... why not a frog? Whats wrong with frogs? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

About the MC session next week...you sound very focused on making sure the MC understands that you wife is behaving in a P/A way... I wouldn't be so sure that he hasn't already picked that up. I think there's a good chance its fairly clear to him, since P/A behaviour very often goes with the parent/child dynamic that he picked up right away.

It seems really important to you that the MC understands that she is behaving P/A. Also that you are validated in your MC sessions as a great H, a good communicator, a great dad. From what you have posted I have no doubt that you are these things. Why is it so important to hear that validation from the MC?

Wanting to hear that you are RIGHT keeps you attached... its the opposite of detachment with love.

I know it must be hard, if you have allowed yourself to be convinced all this time by your W that you were WRONG. I am so similar to you in this respect. I now know that my feelings are always the truth. I can state them and not LB. I don't get angry because I know its my own stuff that allows me to be sucked in to believing someone else's truth, seeing things through someone else's skewed filter.

Yes, P/A behaviour hurts, and is designed to manipulate. it comes from a skewed view of the world where control attempts are seen everywhere. On the other hand, disregarding who you are and what you know to be true, trying to change someone and expecting things from someone who is not capable of them, cause just as much hurt as the original P/A behaviour...

When I read about your MC, I hear you still in the dance, still getting angry and trying to change her. She might change. But if she does, it won't be because of a great point you made in MC or the killer argument you thought up. Do you know what i mean?

I think you must have known we couldn't let this comment pass..



I know its a joke, but its not really that funny... So will you humour me while I go through the reasons why you're not and never have been a jacka55 ?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are a unique and irreplaceable person with your own set of beliefs, skills, talents, and experiences. You are the product of all of your experiences in your life up to and including now.

Every decision that you have made was the best possible decision you could make at that time, given your awarenesses, beliefs, knowledge and values.

Like all of us, you are changing and will continue to change. You do your best and have always done your best in every situation, given your understanding, experiences up to that point and awareness. If and when your understanding, awareness, beliefs and values change, you may make different decisions. Thats ok.

All of that also holds for your FWW.

One more thing... I still think its really impressive that you have come this far in understanding and changing yourself on your own, without a C or even a real life support group to guide you. Please don't stop now... no matter what happens in your MC session.

HL,

I really like Smur's comments on this. Have you considered backing off and asking the questions that Dru mentioned? I think the ball needs to be in THEIR court not yours.

Three years is a long time. Perhaps it is time to do something different.

God Bless,

JL

Good morning, HL (oh, excuse me...Frog...! LMAO

I wanted to thank you for being my lighthouse! Seems to be 180 has alot of effect around here...I won't go into detail...

I'm not going to get to mushy on you...but I have to tell you that you have BEEN aworld of good for me...you and your family...thank you so much for sharing your life with me but I'm striking out on my own...I've felt alot of pressure being here...not form you, please I'm not saying that...you have been so wonderful...

I wrote some about my decisions and my fears, and a little bit of everything on LA...I need to talk...

I don't fear my H as much as I let my fear grow this past week...Things is YOU have helped me understand this crazy behavior sooo much...I can now see what he fears and he's a little slow in seeing it...but when he gets it...wow...

So, like I said on my other thread I won't be around as much as I have...I do think it's been influencing me negativiily...doing and thinking some things that I normally wouldn't...

I wish you the best and now it's going to be FROG'S day! I know that you and your W will make it, not doubt because you're a wonderful lighthouse! A great role model! Take care and thank you sooo much again.

Oh, 180, baby! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

frog, have you pointed out to your wife how extremely controlling this is on HER part?

P/As believe that controlling someone is the worst thing in the world and that refusing to allow themselves to be controlled justfies their P/A behaviour.

They fail to realize that P/As are some of the most controlling people on the face of the earth, and that every time they pull some P/A stunt THEY are controlling YOU.

Drop that one on her *and then walk away to let her think about it.* Don't stand there hoping she'll apologize or see it your way. Just walk away and let her think about it.
Mulan

P.S You might also ask her that if you really could "control" her, doesn't she think you would have "controlled" her into being a loyal partner to you? Just laugh when you say this and keep laughing as you shake your head and walk away.

I agree completely. I do not believe that either. What I do believe for myself is that I need to say it. I need her to understand that I cannot love her with that philosophy. I find myself on gaurd and detached and that is a hard life. As you point out sometimes I am going back toward attachment.

I also know I am not a jacka55. What I feel is that I am a very intelligent person. I can look at a situation and analyze it very quickly and come up with a darn good decesion. Yet I kept going in this dance for much longer then I should have. NOT necessarily M but this dance we have been in.

Mulan,

No I have not. Like I said I wanted to try to get it out there without saying it. PA that is. I think my FWW took off her mask and it is time for me to say exactly what you did.

That is exactly how I felt. Not only that but she has admitted basically to undermining everything i have asked but refused to take ownership of the hard times we had.



She doesn't call me controlling anymore. I pretty much knocked that one back on her a long time ago. If I am controlling how did you even get back to NY to have your A. UMMM I didn't want you to go. So If I were controlling you wouldn't have been there to have an A.

Now she just says she doesn't like to do what she has been told to do.

I like where I am. I have not had an angry flair up with her now for at least 3 months. Where I got mad and did something she could use against me. I sometimes have a hard time but I like me much better the next day.

I want to like me.

And frognomore fits. I have realized I am a prince. I didn't need to wait for the princess to come and kiss me and love me to make that a reality.

Ok so it is MC again tonight.

I really had a hard time even deciding to go to MC. I had two choices I felt a D or MC. I told my FWW just that.

There had been a lot of damage done and I really had to think about my best interest. I really did not want to hash up the old memories that hurt so much. I don't know that you can fix the future without discussing the past. So we have been. Up to this point it has been about me and the wrong things I have done. LOL.

Well just like last week I feel very emotional.

I have not been looking for major progress just a glimmer of hope for the future.

I sat through 3 sessions devoted to our arguments and fair fighting. During these I took my ownership and she really hasn't. She denied ever really starting any of the name calling. So on Sunday she started with the name calling. LOL. I didn't blow up I just let it roll off of my back.

She said I was, immature, childish, acting like a child some variation of this anyway. I counted at least 9 of them. Only to come back later and say I am sorry. Damage done sweety. You have denied ever doing that and now you do it again. The Difference I didn't return fire. LOL.

So now I am really starting to wonder why I am putting myself through this. It is really hard to do.

I am investing time and money in this just to feel bad. This doesn't really make that much sense to me.

But tonight I go. Tonight I am going to lay it on the table. Her attitude that she didn't want to do it because I have asked has hurt me on the deepest level and I don't know if I will ever forgive her for that.

I have thought about these last three years and I really can't think of one time she did what I asked her to do. Some of it is really unimaginable. She left a trigger on the refrigerator for me to see just because I asked her to take it down. LOL. She let my YS keep a football from OM just because I told her to get rid of it. That sucks and I am ready to say it.

I know it is PA but you know what I can't worry about that anymore. All I can say is I feel completely emasculated by this whole process. I feel like she was trying to break me and might still be trying but I refuse to be broken.

I am too strong now to break. I will be fine no matter what. I am just really starting to think I am better off without her.

I am tired of her rubbing my nose in her win's. LOL

I'd like to bask in this a moment:


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Affirmation from Yoda. Makes me smile <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Got nothing to loose, fella. Lay it on the line for them. You want love. Tell em! - Dru

frog, put the P/A stuff right out on the table and shine a glaring spotlight on it. If your counselor doesn't know what it is, educate him or her, or find a better counselor.

You've got to stop tiptoeing around the P/A behaviour. It's good that you do not let FWW bait you into a fight anymore, but it's not enough to just sit there and not respond - that's stonewalling and is actually P/A behavior on *your* part.

You ALSO have to call her on it each and every time your FWW does it, and then walk away and leave her holding the bag.

You will not get anywhere unless and until you are ready to confront - and that's confront, not merely endure - this P/A stuff head-on each and every time it happens.
Mulan

Dru,

I am I am getting it out on the table.

I think I am frustrated because there is always an agenda for the meeting. Last week it took a half an hour for me to get to speak. We talked about fair fighting and about our reading and our homework.

I said right at the beginning I wanted to talk about the lingerie thing. The reason I wanted that it was a safe example of the PA behavior. She refused and said she didn't feel comfortable so he said we should put it aside for now and maybe we could talk about it later. I brought it up later and that is when she made the comment. LOL.

This week is it. I am putting a spotlight on it but I don't know now if that even matters.

Mulan,

I agree with you but the problem is that is a big boom in which believe it or not she is the victim again. LOL. So I stopped for now because we are going to MC. OK if I am calling her PA we both know she will try not to act that way in the MC. So I didn't want to say it until it is evident.

I think now it is evident. I have brought up enough things she has done or I have asked her to do that she refused even if it is the right thing to do.

So now it is out she said it.

But I honestly hate this feeling. I do. I am at the point where I need a win. I know that might be the wrong way to look at it but that is what I need to stay. Over 3 years and now I can't think of one time where I won. I got what I wanted. She did what I wanted her to do. Some of the things she would do were wrong but she did them anyway.

So here I sit waiting and tonight I tell her I don't see love from her. I see the opposite. Indifference to my hurt and my feelings. See how that goes.

I am really starting to lean towards a D here. She got her way every step of the way. I can look myself in the mirror and know I have stayed longer then almost any other man would. I cannot hover look myself in the mirror knowing she purposely did things to sabotoge me and refuses to even talk about the subjects.

I need my manhood back.

Hi Mulan,

I think all they been doing is focusing on the P/A behaviour! He's gone to great lenghts to point this out, even the councelor as set her up by giving her assignments to blow. I see MC as totally getting this, but cant rub her nose in it at this early stage in the game. Just my take.

He (the name-changer: tricky) needs to start talking about his feelings of dispair and pain, and should be given, by her, reasons WHY he should WANT to stay in this marriage. Again, just my take - Dru

(edited for babble)