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I've only been coming here a short while, but the things I've learned so far have brought me so much comfort and peace. I'm able to stand against WH attacks because of the things I've learned from all of you.

1. Cheaters are necessarily liars.
2. Cheating liars are necessarily guilt-ridden.
3. Guilty, cheating liars are necessarily incapable of seeing anything outside of their own selfish desires.
4. Guilty, cheating, selfish liars are incapable of seeking forgiveness and incapable of offering it.

This is such a revelation to me! I couldn't figure out why he was so interested in getting the speck out of my eye and so willing to ignore the giant freaking log in his own. But it's absolutely necessary for him to turn my faults into unforgivable sins so that he can continue to justify his own behavior.

My WH left for two days then came back (I'm sure only until he can make permanent living arrangements). So, he's home now, but not making any efforts to change any of the problems in our marriage . . . In fact, he had lunch with OW just last week. Anyway, having been abandoned by their own father, my kids are understandably angry with him for leaving.

Last night, on the way home from the gym, my 7 year old told my WH that he's not part of the family. WH replied, "Yes, I am part of this family" and 7 year old replied, "No you're not. You quit."

Well, do you think that comment from the mouths of babes caused any self-reflection or recognition of wrong-doing for my WH? Nope. He's been angry and yelling at everyone ever since then. He can't figure out why everyone thinks this is all his fault (even though I've said time and time again that I see my mistakes, even though I've asked for his forgiveness and followed my remorse with real actions). He can't figure out why he's "the bad guy" in all this.

Knowing what I know from visiting these boards, I am able to see the pathetic humor in this. It doesn't make it any less sad, but it does make it a lot less painful.

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Yes, it appears you have the psych part down pat.

How are you doing on the rest of the knowledge?

Have you identified your real shortcomings in the marriage?

What is your plan?

How many dog-eared pages are there in your copy of Surviving An Affair? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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worthatry,

It's funny. Four weeks ago I thought I was in a good, lifelong, committed marriage. WH is so closed off emotionally and such a conflict-avoider that he never gave me a hint as to what he needed from me, so I had to guess. Now he's saying that I should have known what he needed (yeah, like he knew what I needed even after I told him clearly).

Anyway, even before I found out just how far gone he was, I was working to change my behavior toward him, to make my tone and words more respectful and less judgmental. He's not interested in any changes I'm making and is in fact using my changes as "proof" that we're not meant to be. You know, if I have to change who I am to be with you then we shouldn't be together.

I don't know how to fix this myself. I didn't buy a copy of Surviving an Affair because he won't admit that his "friendship" is an affair, so finding that book would only make him more angry and eager to get out. I did buy His Needs, Her Needs and Love Busters, hoping that we could work on them together, but he's not interested. He's also cancelled all of the MC & IC appointments. He says that if I want to go, I can, but he's not going to waste his time.

To be honest, right now my only plan is to keep him and his paycheck at home long enough to get a decent nest egg to live off of for a while. Sad, I know. Wrong, I know. But I can't see any other options. He's determined to leave, it's just a question of when.

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I didn't buy a copy of Surviving an Affair because he won't admit that his "friendship" is an affair, so finding that book would only make him more angry and eager to get out.


Get it for you, dear.

Don't even THINK of having him see it for now. Same with HNHN.

While you're ordering books, please consider Frank Pittman's "Private Lies." Very, very good.

Nothing you are describing is unique.

Please describe more details - what you know of the OW, what you know of how and where they interact, what hard evidence you have of the affair, and how much knowledge of the affair is out in the open: next order of business, exposure. Please read the exposure thread linked in my sig line below.

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Okay, details. I'm not sure if this measures up to "hard evidence," but the cell phone bill was the first clue. In twenty days they had made 25 phone calls totalling just over 3 hours to each other. One of those phone calls happened when I was in Los Angeles visiting a friend with advanced cancer (a trip my WH encouraged me to take). I had missed my flight back to Nashville and was devastated because I missed my family so much. I had called home and told them that I was going to try to catch a flight to Ft Worth and see if I could make it to Nashville from there. As soon as I hung up the phone I went frantically searching for a way home while he immediately called OW and talked for over an hour.

Then, after I asked him about it, he lashed out at me. He wrote a three page letter extolling the virtues of this woman, how wonderful she is and how he's going to continue to be her friend no matter what. I mean, he was enraged for a couple of days after that. I got the whole, "It's not you it's me" and "Just a friend" and "You just don't want me to have ANY friends, do you?" Then, on one of his days off last week, he was gone for 14 hours. In that 14 hours there were 17 phone calls between him & his "friend."

He works with her. So, when I was at his work Saturday I asked him to introduce me. Again, he was enraged. I think the thing that convinces me most of his guilt is his anger and defensiveness about it. Oh, and he said her name by mistake yesterday in a conversation with me. And, even after seeing the devastation all of this has caused, he insists that she has "helped him" a lot! Funny, ever since the phone calls started between him and OW, he's claimed to be having thoughts of suicide, lost his faith in God, his family is falling apart, he's frustrated and angry almost all the time . . . I'm having a hard time seeing how he's been "helped" by this relationship.

I have installed a keylogger and ordered a voice-activated recorder, though I'm not sure I'm really going to want to know what they will turn up.

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All "normal".

Nothing unique so far.

This is good - it means everything you can glean from this site is applicable to you.

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He wrote a three page letter extolling the virtues of this woman, how wonderful she is and how he's going to continue to be her friend no matter what.

Save that letter.

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He works with her.

Please describe the business and what you know of their respective roles, i.e., is there a supervisor/subordinate situation?

You need to snoop to find out everything you can about the OW - specifically, is she married?

Please describe potential exposure candidates - his family, his friends, his social acquaintences, etc. - anyone who may be influential in his life.

Please provide your ages, how long married, ages of children, etc. Also describe anything in your marital history that may be pertinent.

WAT

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I am so sorry to see you here in this situation, but you have come to the right place. It was truly a life saver for me.

Buy the books, but also read read read on these forums. You are not alone....I know what a terrible time you are going through and how devastating and hopeless it feels. These forums are about people just like you and I, normal people in the real world. It helped me tremendously to read those stories and see the progress and to understand the ways of the WS...they are all alike and say the same stupid things. The things my WH originally said to me and how he treated me absolutely hurt me to the core, until I realized alot of that was more about him then me. He was angry at himself and I was taking the hits for it. It ISN'T you, it IS him. While we are all responsible for our part of a marriage and it's deterioration, there is NEVER an excuse for an affair. Believe it. This forum has also taught me to take care of me...which we sometimes forget to do as a wife and mother.

Listen to what the experts here tell you (I am not one). They've been where you are and they know what they are talking about. They will be a great comfort to you, as they are to me. Every situation is a success...whether your marriage ends up in divorce or not, you will be okay (more than just okay).

I wish you the best. Keep reading here, it will help.

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It's a huge retail chain. His position is higher than hers, but I don't think he's a direct supervisor. He did mention in his letter that they would not sleep together because they would both get fired. Nice, huh. I wouldn't sleep with anyone because I promised not to, but that's just me.

He claims that she's been married for 19 years and has four children. She's got the face of a bassett hound, but a great body. I have to tell you, that makes no sense because mine's not too shabby, either, only without the dog-face.

I have already exposed him to our church family. Not everyone, just the pastor and some select friends there. His family has always hated me, so exposure to them is no big deal.

I am 35 and he is 44. We've been married just over three years. My children are from a previous marriage and are 15, 13, and 7.

When we first got married I was working for the 3rd largest insurance company in the world. We decided that the pressure was too much and I quit to become a SAHM. After a few months, a local business owner started trying to recruit me and eventually we decided for me to take this job, which is so insecure that every day we stay in business is a miracle.

He was near bankruptcy when we met and today, because I handled all the finances, he is completely debt-free. I'm not. When it came time to pay off my debts, we put $6,000 into his truck instead.

I knew when we met that he had a problem with honesty, and I married him anyway. What did I really expect?

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foxnhound,

You are right. I'm already thankful for what these boards have taught me and plan to cling to the wisdom here while I go through this.

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I recommend you find out how to contact OW's husband and advise him about the affair. Have cell records available to share for proof. Many unsuspecting BSs immediately go into denial mode and hard evidence is needed to overcome this.

Speaking of cell records, like the letter, save them in a safe place.

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He did mention in his letter that they would not sleep together because they would both get fired.


They don't have to sleep together to get fired. They just have to have an affair for her to claim sexual harrassment or to create the appearance of favoritism for some other employee to claim "ya gotta sleep with the boss to get ahead in this outfit". And she doesn't need to be his direct report - it's even worse if he's higher. But getting fired is rare. Getting called on the carpet is not. I strongly recommend - right after you expose to OW's H - that you expose the workplace affair to the company.

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I am 35 and he is 44. We've been married just over three years. My children are from a previous marriage and are 15, 13, and 7.
Alternatively, get a pitbull lawyer, take him to the cleaners, and dump him.

You're young, in a short marriage, and you have no children with him. But to do this going the full monty, you need more evidence.

This path remains open to you if you choose to pursue the "save the marriage" path. In both cases you may need more evidence. Stop accusing him of having an affair and hunker down in surveillance mode. Snoop your butt off. Use the keylogger and recorder. Let him think you believe his denials.

In parallel, expose to OW's H first, then the workplace. DO NOT warn him that you're going to do this. If you do, he'll take pre-emptive damage control and OW will warn her H that "some crazy woman is going around telling all the husbands of ladies at work that their wives are boinking HER husband!!! Can you believe that, Honey!! The NERVE!!"

Understand all this?

WAT

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Hi Broken,
I'm also in Nashville.
anything I can do to help?
cgw (Pat)


BW: me (52) WH: him (51) D Day #1: 8/14/04 (OW #1) D Day #2: 12/10/05(OW #2) M'd 28 yrs, together 32 DS: 25, 17; DD: 23 2004-05: False recovery(OW#1) Plan A: he came back... but is not committed to recovery. Plan B: lived 10 months off & on w/OW#2 Plan D: nearly final except for mediation Plan ME: Starting over with MY Life Plan R: divorce stopped @ FWH request; Retrouvaille Weekend (2/07) Plan Now:FWH committed & working hard on Recovery
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forgot to say that my STBXH also supervised OW#2 at their multi-national corporate HQ. upon exposure, they both had to sign an affadavit for HR that it was not sexual harrassment. but neither of them got fired or transferred for it...:(
hang in there. WAT is right--exposure is still your best bet. the more people who can make him accountable for his actions, the better.
cgw


BW: me (52) WH: him (51) D Day #1: 8/14/04 (OW #1) D Day #2: 12/10/05(OW #2) M'd 28 yrs, together 32 DS: 25, 17; DD: 23 2004-05: False recovery(OW#1) Plan A: he came back... but is not committed to recovery. Plan B: lived 10 months off & on w/OW#2 Plan D: nearly final except for mediation Plan ME: Starting over with MY Life Plan R: divorce stopped @ FWH request; Retrouvaille Weekend (2/07) Plan Now:FWH committed & working hard on Recovery
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Thanks, Pat. It seems from your sig line that you are well on your way, that must be nice! I'm still trying to soak it all in. I think we're on the Plan A part of your sig, he came back but is not even trying to appear committed to recovery.

Since I'm new here, I'm not sure if it would be inappropriate to ask if we could talk by email or whatever off the boards. It would be nice to have a friend nearby who has been there. I've spent the past three years catering to him and ignoring my own life, so friends in general are in short supply and friends who really "get" what this is like are non-existent.

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cgw -
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they both had to sign an affadavit for HR that it was not sexual harrassment


That HR dept. isn't very competent. This might protect the company if OW later accuses him of sexual harassment before the date of the affadavit. If she gets pissed at him subsequently and THEN claims harrassment, that affadavit is worthless. "I HAD to keep putting out to him or he said I'd lose my job!!"

Further, any other employee knowledgable of their liason can claim third party SH and file a lawsuit. "Ya gotta sleep with the boss to get ahead in this outfit." In that case, the affadavit serves as really good evidence that the company knew of the liason and did nothing about it. Stoooooooopid.

JMHO

WAT
------------------
Rabbits have an inefficient digestive system that requires them to eat their own poop to give it a second pass.

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I've spent the past three years catering to him and ignoring my own life,

One of the most important steps in this plan, as a part of Plan A, is self-improvement. You may be somewhat co-dependent on your WH. Something that will help immensely in this journey, is for you to "find" some of the independence that was "part of you" before your married him.

One thing many BS do wrong is become needy and clingy, desperate for their WS's attention. Big mistake. Most of the time, when a WS sees their BS holding their head up high, working on becoming a "better person" and not letting the heartbreak and heartache drag them down, they begin to wonder if the BS isn't just going to disattach, move on and leave them standing.

Doing this will give you the opportunity to strengthen yourself as an individual, and cause your WS to have some doubts about having you in a "fall-back" position, "just in case" the new "love" doesn't work out.

You are getting excellent advice in this thread. Listen, read and learn all you can. The covert collection of solid, court-admissable evidence is a very important step prior to exposure, especially to the OW's H.

Best wishes,
SD


BH - me 53, ONS 1979
FWW - 51, 2 EA's, 1 PA
Last D-Day, Sep. 30, 2003
Last Contact/recovery began 2-26-04

***You can do anything with time and money...but remember...money won't buy you time!***
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WAT,
yes, they were just trying to protect the company, unfortunately.

Broken,
you may email me. I'm not sure I'm a "wealth of knowledge", but I've been in your shoes.
I met another MB'er for lunch the other day. we could start a Nashville Branch... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
cgw

Last edited by cgw; 09/13/06 08:40 PM.

BW: me (52) WH: him (51) D Day #1: 8/14/04 (OW #1) D Day #2: 12/10/05(OW #2) M'd 28 yrs, together 32 DS: 25, 17; DD: 23 2004-05: False recovery(OW#1) Plan A: he came back... but is not committed to recovery. Plan B: lived 10 months off & on w/OW#2 Plan D: nearly final except for mediation Plan ME: Starting over with MY Life Plan R: divorce stopped @ FWH request; Retrouvaille Weekend (2/07) Plan Now:FWH committed & working hard on Recovery
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WAT,
yes, they were just trying to protect the company, unfortunately.

My point was that they weren't even doing that - although they thought they were.

They were still very, very vulnerable to a lawsuit by either OW or any other employee wanting to make a stink.

WAT

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HERE <~~~ is my Plan A thread (I like it)

don't fight/discuss/argue with him at all until you have more snooping results and then EXPOSE to OW's spouse

I have a question

~why~ has H's family always "hated" you? ... seems odd

Pep

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Brokenone:

Let me step in as a FWH.

A three page letter extoling the virtues of the OW? Give me a break. Can he do the same for you? A man who could write three pages of info on anything without a government grant has got to be hiding something.

Put his feet to the fire and do as the others have recommended. He will come back, he's in the fog, but you need to give him the foghorn.

IMHO

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Pepperband,

I think it has a lot to do with cultural differences. I was raised in Washington, DC, they are West Tennessee natives. They tend to distrust anyone that didn't grow up around there and especially some "yankee" from D.C. I also made the mistake of trying to make a good impression on our first meeting and had a fresh manicure, pedicure, and hair style. I didn't really fit into their trailer filled with dead things on the walls. I think they think I'm a snob. Maybe I am. But it seems like after your family has lost one grandma to kids playing with a loaded gun, you'd put the damned things away!

I guess we just don't click.

lousygolfer,

You're right, there is no way he could write three sentences extolling my virtues, let alone three pages!

Also, I sent out a resume last night in an attempt to find a more stable job in preparation for what's coming and I got a call back today!! I'm praying it will work out, it's a great job very close to home. I really feel like God is watching out for me. I actually feel capable of handling this now. I am so grateful for the wisdom on these boards!

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