Melodylane where are you, need your wisdom here!!

Papa,

Last week, Melodylane and Owl blasted my MC for proposing that I ignore my WW until after the New Year especially when WW is so extremely detached. My MC also suggesting that we separate (her moving out) for a while to see how things go. Detachment was one of the reasons she went wayward in the first place. Wouldn’t 180 and asking her to move out cause detachment to reoccur as well? You guys are asking me to do what my MC was suggesting last week which didn’t go well with folks here. I’m surprised that I’m receiving this advice now; just one week ago it was a bad idea.

Trust me that I’m not making it easy for her including strict enforcement of her breaking boundaries. This is why she is so resentful and bitter against me because she thinks I know exactly what she is doing 24/7 (snooping) and will not take her craps if she makes contact (enforcing boundaries). She knows how far I would go to make her feels the consequence of her A and breaking N/C. I just don’t think one month after D-Day is enough to implement a good Plan A before going into 180. In reality, the New Year is only 3 months after D-day and I believe that is probably the right time to implement a full 180. I also know whatever I do in Plan A (good or bad) will not bring her back without 180, Plan B or even DV. I think I need to exercise some patient here and not jump into the next step too quickly.

As I was saying earlier, I’m doing most of the things in the 180 list without knowing it but I do have problem with 180’s:
Item 10, Do not spy on spouse. It’s just too soon to let her loose.
Item 14 & 27, Get busy, do things, exercise & focus on other parts of my life. This again is how WW and I got here in the first place. We start doing our own things which led to her A. Right now, I’m spending a lot of times at the gym (3-4 times a week for 2-3 hours around dinner hours) which I should spend more time at home with the kids.

The 180 has nothing to do with anyone moving out.

As Papaof3 said, you combine Plan A with the 180. Go ahead and keep snooping if it helps you. "Focus on other things" just means try not to focus on what she is doing 24/7. It WILL help you to detach from her lunacy - not from her. A spouse who is not clingy and depressed is more attractive. Does that make sense?

If you still need Plan B, that's when you tell her to move out. Not before.

The 180 doesn't involve throwing her out at all. That's what will likely end up having to happen if she doesn't come around, unfortunately.

You implement the 180 while in the house. As I said, my ex responded to it. For example, I used to call her constantly when she went out shopping with our nanny on Saturdays. This annoyed her. I finally tried very hard to not contact her at all when she went out one Saturday. She came home and told me she was shocked I hadn't called her all day. She hugged me and showed me affection for the first time in a long time.

I tried to maintain emotional distance, but it was hard. I quit trying to hug her and give her affection. Mainly because I knew it was unwelcome and thought it should come from her. I was dying inside and wanting to, but knew it was not constructive to do so.

So what did I do? I didn't call her, I made a greater effort to just leave her alone. I didn't ask her to read books, go out, have SF, and I tried to go out myself with friends.

I'm not saying ignore her. That's not the 180. You're still around, but through your actions you make home a welcoming environment. For example, I didn't call her when she went out, but dinner was ready when she came home, the kids were bathed, fed, and ready for bed, and I baked cinnamon buns to go with dinner. I had it ready for her matter of factly. Did she appreciate it? Not at the time. Perhaps in the future she'll look back at the efforts I made to win her back despite all the pain I felt inside.

None of this is easy and if you're genuinely doing other things to improve yourself and detatch yourself emotionally, then more power to you.

But yes, the 180 goes with Plan A. Your W will not come around otherwise.

Look at it this way, if you act as a caring roomate instead of her H. You can be friendly and listen when she speaks, but you don't show affection as an H would. Doesn't mean you don't want to. But if she feels comfortable around you she may start to wonder where your affection went and might welcome it again.

There were moments my ex would get into bed and put her arm around me to comfort me.

This is a minefield you're walking through and it is something you have to make your way through yourself. Just trust me when I tell you that you're getting the right advice here. No one here would advocate separation. If she wants to leave, let her do the work for that. Don't do it for her.

You will read these posts a few months from now and see that the advice you were getting was always there. The actions recommended to you were the right ones to take and the ones you either A) ignored and had everything fail, B) followed, but things failed anyways, or C) followed, and she responded to it.

I can guarantee you that she won't respond to being smothered. Why would she crave your affection when you so willingly give it out even when she doesn't want it?

Think about it.

We all want you to succeed.

Thanks papa, mulan, owl and others.

I appricate all your posts, since I'm doing most of 180 anyway, I'll continue. I agreed that smothering and affection will not bring her back, that's why I have not done it for over a week.

You slept in the same bed with your ex back then? You're lucky, we're in separate bedroom so no touchy, touchy. LOL.

Being separate is probably less painful. I would lay next to her hoping she would reach out to me. I would lay next to her and cry as she slept. I wanted desperately to touch her and hold her and have her hold me back.

Believe me, you probably sleep better this way. One time she told me she wanted SF simply as a biological need. I did too for similar reasons, but I hoped inside it would somehow touch her emotionally.

If you're doing the 180, then you're doing about all you can.

Maybe a gift for her birthday isn't out of the question. Or a surprise cake made by you.

Sometimes the gifts given passively can mean a lot.

Hard to know what to tell you. Overly romantic gestures aren't well received by WSs.

Again, good luck.

papa, I don't think I'm as emotional as you, not being disrespectful but that's the way I'm. I too at times hope that she would come over and hold me but it was just that, Hope. We have no SF (at least me) since August so you're luckier than I. Now that you mention it, I do sleep better since we have our separate BR. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

She's getting a "Happen Birthday!!" and "Have a nice day" on a piece of paper from me. I may draw pictures of a flower and a cake w/ candles if she's nice. 180 right?

I'll be the first to admit I am emotional. I wear my emotions on my sleeve.

She told me one night she had needs but didn't want me to make more of it than what it was.

I would say that is adequate. I would personally done more, but as we've established, it accomplished nothing.

As I said, good luck.

11/14/06 Latest:

As far as I know, there is N/C bet. WW and OP for the last two weeks.

Yesterday, WW was putting pressure on me to give in to her for a trouble free separation, giving her 50/50 custody and allow her to go out and “find herself”. She said that doesn’t mean that she’ll be running back to the OP (we know better don’t we) but she need time to be alone and work things out on her own. She may then miss me and get those loving feelings back again. Of course I told her that I don’t do separation; she needs to do that by herself and I’ll not have anything to do with it. She also told me she doesn’t want it (separation/DV) to become nasty, she doesn’t want to go through legal channel to obtain a LSA. For info, I’m in one of the worst state (NJ) that normally rules against the husband (even if it involves WW) in regarding to custody, alimony and child supports. If she files a formal LSA, I most likely will be toasted.

She then asked what I want from her; to have her stuck in a marriage that she doesn’t want to be in. I told her that I want her to work on our marriage for at least six months (my Plan A); I want to be able to tell our kids in five/ten years down the line that their Daddy did everything that he knows how to keep this marriage together. I think that’ll be enough time for my Plan A, at which time I’ll switch to Plan B or Plan D anyway.

She doesn’t believe that it will work, she have nothing left for me even if the OP is not in the picture. Her love for me went dead five years ago well before the OP. She agreed to give me five months to work on our marriage; she’ll give her best efforts (??) which she said may be less than what I expected. If she doesn’t get those loving feeling for me by that time, I’ll agree to a friendly separation. She asked that I do not force SF or affection from or on her during this time which I agreed.

Here is my thinking in accepting the five months period:
1. Hopefully, she’ll put her best efforts to work on our marriage.
2. Even if she doesn’t put her best efforts forward, this time enable me to buy some time so she could get over her withdraw for the OP.
3. Give me five months for Plan A so she’s open to accept my EN and fill some her love bank.
4. At the end of five months, I was planning to go into Plan B anyway so having her move out may not be so bad anyway.

What do you think? Really need some of the expert’s wisdoms here.

Cool, she only has to go deep underground with her affair for 5 months and then you will roll over and take it without complaint!

That is a GREAT DEAL for her!

Not so great for you, though, Mike. She is not going to work on the marriage, she is only going to ride out your time limit so you will give her what she wants.

If you want to save your marriage, don't agree to anything. The reason she needs your agreement is because it is TOO HARD. Chances are she won't ever do it anyway if you make it too hard. Make her work her [censored] off if she is going to destroy your family. Don't cooperate in the destruction of your family. That is the best way to drag this out and protect yourself.

You best options in saving your marriage are to follow Plan A to the letter. Snoop, expose and DO NOT cooperate with any manipulative deals with your WS.

Mike, I know that you are trying hard to negotiate your way out of this, but please understand that this is a negotiation that will most likely result in the end of your marriage. When you negotiate with a fogged out, addicted WW, you are never likely to get an honest deal, or a good deal, that is because the ONLY good deal for her is the chance to resume her affair UNIMPEDED.

Basically, you have given her a deal that says if she acts nice for 5 months, you will help her destroy your marriage. What a crazy deal!!

You must have similar GOALS in order to negotiate a win-win situation. You don't have that here. Your goal is save your marriage, her goal is to END IT. You have negotiated the end of your marriage in this deal. BAD DEAL.

Mel,

Plan A and the boundries including N/C will still be in place which she agreed and I'll snoop/expose if contact is made. If boundries are broken or she's not working on the marriage, all bets are off and she agreed to it as well. Like I was saying, as far as I know there is no contact. The OP doesn't want to have anything to do with the break up of our marriage. If she goes for LSA, she'll get what she wants anyway (50/50 custody) and more (CS & alimony).

I could always change my mind if she's not working on the marriage.

Mike, you don't know what she will get in a LSA. We have many fathers in many states who get custody and very favorable deals. Even so, she is reluctant to even take that step and won't do it without your cooperation. This is why you should never negotiate the end of your marriage, and that is what you have done.

good luck!

mike - here is the translation of what your WW is asking for:

"I want to go back to my boyfriend but I want you to stay off my back about it. That's why I'm moving out - so you won't interfere with my affair.

"Then, when you are nice and agreeable about my moving out and don't make a fuss, I can tell myself that you and the kids weren't really hurt by my abandoning you and are all doing just fine. That way, I don't have to feel guilty!

"We can get a divorce and all be friends, I can still use mike as a fall-back in case I need something (like money or babysitting), and I can still have my boyfriend.

"C'mon, mike, be a sport and let me have all this."

That's what she just said.
Mulan

mike, mike, mike - I have never seen so much fog in a BS. You have bought her lines and she will laugh all the way to divorce court.

What on earth do you propose to do if there IS contact, which we all know there will be the minute she drives away? What does "all bets are off" mean?

mike, nobody moves out of their house to "work on a marriage." Everything you listed in your post HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. Sadly, the only one who doesn't realize that is you.
Mulan

Her words are verbatim what I heard except for the 50/50 part.

Don't do any of it. Tell her that you will not make any of this easy on her and all you will work on is the marriage. You will not willingly participate in the disolution of your marriage.

Please don't give in to her demands to make it easy. I heard all the same stuff from my ex. She didn't want it to get nasty. She wanted it to be easy so we could be friends and probably end up together later.

You have to be a rock. Your response is consistent. I will only work on our marriage, I will not help you dissolve this family.

It will be very hard. She will rant and rave. She will throw fits and threaten you that it will get nasty if you don't do as she wishes.

Don't believe it. Prepare yourself for it. Live with the fact she'll be furious.

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR HOUSE!

Also, I made assumptions about custody too. Don't do it. There's a movement nationwide to be fair to father's and joint custody is what is being encouraged in courts. Don't assume anything. A lawyer is likely to tell you as much. Ask if you don't believe me.

I can't believe how many husbands are on this board going through exactly what I went through. It saddens me. Please learn from my mistakes. Weakness and appeasement will get you what you don't want: divorce! Don't do what I did!

Be strong. I know it's hard, but be strong!

Mel, I don’t know about other states but in NJ, she’ll get at least 50/50 custody if not more. Unless I could proved that she’s an unfit mother (which I can’t), she’ll certainly get CS and alimony; and she may even get me out of the house. Unfortunately, WW’s infidelity doesn’t add much to my favor in the court of law, this come straight from my lawyer. If we go to informal separation, she’ll move out of our house without formal CS and alimony as long as I give her 50/50 custody.

Mulan, I must be in a fog so help me here. She’s staying in the house with me for the next five months to work on our marriage including N/C with the OP. If there is contact made during the five months period, then I’ll not agree to the separation’s terms of 50/50 custody she’s asking for. I’ll also further expose to others that don’t know about her A. Remember, there are not too many more people to expose to without looking like a revengeful BS. What else should I be do or not doing?

I asked for N/C and I’m getting it now. I asked for her to work on the marriage and she’s said she’s going to try. I need to give her that to at least to prove her wrong. I’m getting five months of N/C which I’ll be monitoring it strictly. I’m also getting more time for WW to get over her withdraw. I could always go back on my words for cause; I could always make up something at that time. If not, I’m basically looking at a LSA in January. What would you suggest to be a better alternative?

Papa, I just want to buy more time. No, I’ll not leave my house and will not make it easy when it comes time for it. I’ll be strong.

Mel, Papa & Mulan, I highly value all of your comments, so please keep them coming. I want to be clear of what to tell her tomorrow during our MC.

What you say is simple:

You are committed to making changes in your marriage. You are committed to doing what it takes to make it work. You will not make it easy to divorce and will not willingly participate in it and you refuse to talk about it. Better yet, if it comes up simply say you refuse to talk about divorce and that divorce is not in the equation.

If she is going to try to make the marriage work then she needs to earn the trust she shattered and that involves complete openess of her contacts. She should let you read her e-mails, she should check in with you when she goes out, she should show her her cell phone bill and allow you to see her phone. She should do all of this until you regain some trust in her.

Keep snooping on her online.

Log everything and keep track of things that can be used against her in court.

Protect your finances. Don't trust her at all with money.

Be calm. Don't cry. Be someone she can be attracted to. Not showing emotion and being a mystery to her will get you there.

Good luck.

She have not talk about DV but do ask for separation which I refused to discuss it. She gave me access to her hotmail but I have no access to her work email or work phone bill. I do have access to her cell phone bill and she does let me know who she goes out with. After D-day, her girl friends normally come over our house before they heads out. She's off two days in the middle of the week and she does tells me where and who she's with but she doesn't check-in.

She has access to our join checking account (use to pay bills) but that's not where our big money is. I'm the only one with access to large dollars 401k, stock & IRA accounts ... We still have join credit cards but we don't have any outstanding balance on them and I do keep an eye on any unusual purchase or withdraw but none have been found to date.

One thing about my WW is that she does like spent or waste money, this is one reason why she doesn't want to go see a lawyer and get a formal LSA or getting into nasty DV.

Good. You're in a better place than I was, then. My ex would get furious at me if I tried to spy on her. She could never accept that this was necessary due to her actions. She still has never accepted responsibility for her actions. She believes I'm the one that has caused all the problems since I came home because I reacted normally to what she did.

She didn't want to see the pain, the tears, the anger, the distrust, the need to snoop. She has never accepted that she was the cause of all of it and that her actions have led to my legal actions recently.

I don't get how someone can ruin your self esteem, your time with your children, your family, your finances and expect you to want to be friends and make everything happy and carry on as if nothing has happened.

In my world we believe in accountability. It doesn't exist in hers. We are responsible for our actions and our actions have consequences.

Your WS will not like being held accountable.

Keep being a positive person around her as best you can. Do the 180. You can do the 180 and still be positive. This will make you a warm person to approach and she will find you appealing to do so again.

Keep at it.

I don't think I'm in better place with my WW. My WW sounds just like yours as to her rights, privacy, accountability and consequence of her actions. I have made it so uncomfortable for her that she gave up the email and cell phone bill account access. She would still keep things from me if she could get away with it.

She agreed to read SAA and HNHN with me, so it's a good start once she finish reading them. Let's wait and see.