I am a BW. My question is: Can a WS who shows remorse for having an A be truly remorseful when they can't be radically honest?

I would question the sincerity of his "remorse" if he wasn't willing to be radically honest with me. Radical honesty is a REQUIREMENT for recovery, and you, his victim, cannot recover unless you have the entire truth to your satisfaction.

What is he not being radically honest about?

I need to know how long H had A with OW. My number 1 EN is radical honesty. H changes the subject or answers with "I don't know" or "I can't remember when it started".

His story about the A has changed several times. Each time he promised me he was being honest. I need the truth before I can move on and start to heal.

I'm finding I can't get through the day without reading the posts on MB. The people here on MB are my only support right now. No one knows about my H's A other than OWH. I can't tell my family or involve any of my friends.

H and I talk but I don't see any progress. I feel our R is still at a standstill and it's been eight months.

I don't know where to go from here. Do I give him more time hoping he will tell me the truth? Will he just keep giving me more versions of the story until he arrives at one I'll accept? Am I being demanding, whining or just trying to get my way?

I'm hoping someone else that has gone through this can offer some advice. (And please, be radically honest! I'm so numb I won't even feel the 2x4 if that's what it takes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

tw, we never started recovery in my marriage until my H came clean about the affair. That is the first step. You can't recover as long as he has secrets with the OW to which you are not privy. I would explain to him that this is the first step in recovery and he is causing both of you MORE problems by withholding the truth. You can never be at peace until you know the entire truth. And he will never be at peace either becuase you will continue to ask until he tells you.

And remember, this is all information about your life to which you have a RIGHT to know.

Why not print this letter out and give it to him:

here is the Josephs letter:



"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Dr. Harley:

From my perspective, honesty is part of the solution to infidelity, and so I'll take honesty for whatever reason, even if it's to relieve a feeling of guilt and depression. The revelation of an affair is very hard on an unsuspecting spouse, of course, but at the same time, it's the first step toward marital reconciliation.

Most unfaithful spouses know that their affair is one of the most heartless acts they could ever inflict on their spouse. So one of their reasons to be dishonest is to protect their spouse from emotional pain. "Why add insult to injury," they reason. "What I did was wrong, but why put my spouse through needless pain by revealing this thoughtless act?" As is the case with bank robbers and murderers, unfaithful spouses don't think they will ever be discovered, and so they don't expect their unfaithfulness to hurt their spouse.

But I am one of the very few that advocate the revelation of affairs at all costs, even when the wayward spouse has no feelings of guilt or depression to overcome. I believe that honesty is so essential to the success of marriage, that hiding past infidelity makes a marriage dishonest, preventing emotional closeness and intimacy.

It isn't honesty that causes the pain, it's the affair. Honesty is simply revealing truth to the victim. Those who advocate dishonesty regarding infidelity assume that the truth will cause such irreparable harm, that it's in the best interest of a victimized spouse to go through life with the illusion of fidelity.

It's patronizing to think that a spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Anyone who assumes that their spouse cannot handle truth is being incredibly disrespectful, manipulative and in the final analysis, dangerous. How little you must think of your spouse when you try to protect him or her from the truth.

It's not only patronizing, but it's also false to assume that your spouse cannot bear to hear the truth. Illusions do not make us happy, they cause us to wander through life, bumping into barriers that are invisible to us because of the illusion that is created. Truth, on the other hand, reveals those barriers, and sheds light on them so that we can see well enough to overcome them. The unsuspecting spouse of an unfaithful husband or wife wonders why their marriage is not more fulfilling and more intimate. Knowledge of an affair would make it clear why all efforts have failed.

After revealing an affair, your spouse will no longer trust you. But lack of trust does not ruin a marriage, it's the lack of care and protection that ruins marriages. Your spouse should not trust you, and the sooner your spouse realizes it, the better.

How an affair should end: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

Thank you so much MelodyLane! You don't know how much this means to me right now!

I started to read Joseph's letter but couldn't get through it all because I couldn't control my tears. I'm printing your replies so I can read them as soon as I can pull myself back together. I felt I needed to thank you first.

I need to log out right now. I'll be back later.

tw,

I am three years past D Day with no radical honesty. It has killed our M.

We went to MC last night and the FWW took the same stance she always has that she has been radically honest. I said the only time you tell the truth is when you are admitting to what I have figured out. There is a big difference.

In light of what I know now the last 3 years have been very hurtful. She has used what I didn't know against me at times.

Like Joseph's letter she had all the pieces and I did not. By the time I figured out what was in the section I was missing pieces too she had done things that made it seem as though she was very unremeorseful and unrepentent for the A. Things now she wants to add to the forgiveness pile.

The MC laid it out for her. He said the analogy I would use is like when you break your leg and it isn't healed properly, you have to rebreak it and start over. This hasn't been dealt with properly. She said I don't want to keep going over my mistakes. He asked her if she would rather go over her mistakes or keep making mistakes that are going to end the M? Because the way you have gone about it to this point is a mistake. Your H shouldn't have had to be a detective nor should you have kept hiding the truth.

So there you have it from someone whose leg wasn't set properly. It will cause more resentment on your part.

BTW my FWW couldn't remember anything either. Until I figured it out and told her. Then her memory got better.

The last 2 days since I posted have been earth shattering for me.

First I need to catch up……

Thank you for your support and for letting me know I'm not the only one going through this!

Frognomore, My WH is the same way. He keeps saying he is being honest this time. When I don’t buy that story, it changes then he says he’s finally telling me the truth. The story keeps changing and each time he says he is telling me the truth. This is killing our M also.

MelodyLane, I gave my WH Joseph's letter. He read it and became very quiet. We had several interruptions with family dropping in so we couldn’t talk right away.

The reason I broke out in tears when I started reading Joseph's letter is because I told my WH I needed to put the pieces of the puzzle in place before I could move past his A.

Our MC at the time said, (in front of my H), that I have an active mind and was being irrational for wanting my pieces to my puzzle. She then proceeded to tell me I shouldn’t even try to make sense out of something that doesn’t make sense. I never went back to that MC again.

I guess reading Joseph’s letter and seeing the term “pieces of the puzzle” used was overwhelming for me. It was like someone reached into my heart and soul and felt “my” feelings and put them on paper.

This is what has conspired over the last 2 days….

H and I talked for 8 hrs on Saturday and 6 hrs on Sunday. I thought he was “FINALLY” going to be “Radically Honest” with me. He told me he was so relieved that I now know the truth. Towards the end of our talk on Sunday, he gave yet another version to the story. I was confused so I asked him to explain the discrepancy only the explanation was once again different.

It was like a 2x4 hit me in the head and I woke up. I just lost it at that point and told him to get out and not come back until he can tell the truth.

Right away he said ok, I’ll tell you the truth. I asked him if he really thought I was that stupid. I told him again I wanted him to leave and not come back for at least 2 months. That way he would have time to think about his lying because I’m at the end of my rope and can’t handle one more lie. He kept trying to talk to me but I kept telling him to leave.

He left me a note to call his cell phone but I didn’t. I don’t want to see him or even hear his voice right now. I’m so angry and devastated at this point I was unable to go to work this morning. (I’ve missed 3 out of 4 wks of work.)
I feel so paralyzed and I can’t think. I don’t know what to do!

Sorry for my rambling! I hope some of this is somewhat readable.

TW,

I wish that three years ago I took that stand.

I am currently weighing my options.

You see I am three years past D Day.

Now our MC is saying this wound needs to be reopened for me because my FWW has not been radically honest.

I don't know if I want that pain. The other thing that is being discussed is my FWW's use of her dishonesty to keep doing damage to our M.

Now it seems as though in addition to the A I have other issues that need to be resolved. IE how does she leave triggers in our home for over 2 and a half years after the A because she was dishonest.

This is not what I think I want. I think I wanted this to be placed where it belonged and that was in the past.

For FWS it seems like the past is just time. For a BS it seems as though the past means no longer currently relevant.

I think by being honest it makes the A no longer currently relevant in that aspect. You see there is no more wondering what the FWS is being dishonest about. That can really consume a persons mind.

I think you are on the right track if this is what you need to recover.

It is important to move forward.

I have a hard time believing my FWW about anything because it seems she has had such an easy time not being honest with me.

If he wants your trust he will be honest. If he wants to put that part in the past he will be honest.

I hope for your M's sake he decides to be honest with you.

It seems for me when she finally gave me the pieces I saw more damage that probably wouldn't have happened if I knew the truth.

So there it is for you. No radical honesty = No trust. No radical honest will actually do the opposite of what the FWS hopes to do which is put it in the past. Until it is no longer currently relevant to you there will be a problem. There was only one way for my FWW to do that and it was radical honesty.

tw, would he agree to counsel with Steve Harley and then perhaps get into local marriage counseling? I suspect that lying has been a way of life for him and he has been carrying on a second, secret life for a very long time. He is trying to protect that right now. Discovery means he won't be able to hide it as well. And so far he has been successful in hiding it.

Steve Harley is an exceptional counselor who specializes in infidelity. He won't let your H bullchit him. He costs $185, I think, and does phone counseling. Even if your H would't talk to him at first, SH could assess your situation and guide you out of this mess.

I hate that you have kicked him out on impulse, but I think this can be salvaged with Plan B if you are certain you want to seperate. That being said, much more CALM thinking needs to go into that decision and we can help you with that.

Some food for future thought, tw. He can't stay in contact with the OW if your marriage is to recover. Either him or the OW will have to find another job.

Okay, Honesty is always the best policy. But what about details? I mean, all that is doing is just pouring salt in the wound. Is every single detail about everything really necessary?

NO NO NO and if I forgot to mention it NO.

You need to decide what you want to know. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT ASKING FOR GORY DETAILS.

For me I wanted to know:
When It started.
How it started.
How often they spent time together.
How it ended.
How much money she spent on him.
Where were my kids.
How many times my kids went out with them.(yes they did)
How many times they had SF.(not details just how many times)
Was it protected?

For me it was weird though. There were extenuating circumstances. You see my FWW was supposed to be spending time with her friends and family on that trip. The more time etc she admitted too the less time she spent with those people. So IMVHO my FWW had a vested interest in not telling the truth. Before the trip she wanted to move home to spend time with these people and be close to them. When given the opportunity she chose not to. Every night or day she spent with the OM she couldn't spend with the people she wanted to move back there for.

There were more but as you see no gory details.

Figure out what you need to know to put this in the past.

I know kicking him out was something I did when my emotions were so high. I keep thinking, what did I do? I felt backed into a wall and couldn't stand hearing any more lies and told him I needed a break but he wouldn't stop. I was beginning to shake and he wouldn't stop. That's when I just started telling him to leave. (voice getting louder each time until he finally left hours later.)

I'm calmer now. Last night was the most upset I've been since dday. The OW and her H were friends of ours. There has been NC since she called my H a month after dday to "pick up where they left off". My WH told her it was over and not to call again. We live in the same small town but haven't run into either OW or OWH yet. He has realized the OW is not what he thought she was and now hates her.

We don't know what EN OW met for my H. She is everything my H hates in a woman. I hoping this will come out in MC. I start MC in 2 weeks. H starts 2 wks after that.

Does insurance cover SH counseling sessions? If it's $185 and is covered by ins. I'll check it out.

I guess I should read up on Plan B. for now.

Sher314 and frognomore - I believe the amount of details a BS needs to know varies with each BS. While some BS don't want any details, some my need just certain details where others may need every detail. In my opinion, if you ask for details, you better think about it first. What amount of details do you need to heal? The key word here is "need". I need to know when the A started. I would never heal without this detail. This is the way I see it...If he lies to me about this detail why would he not lie to me in the future? Why not have another A since all he has to do is lie?

I should add, there are a few more details I need but how long it went on is #1. The fact he says he can't remember whether it started in Feb 05 or Aug. 05 tells me a couple of things...

1. He had absolutly no guilt when A started so it was just another day to him.

2. It probably started in 03 or 04 instead of 05 and won't admit to that.

3. He's trying different stories until he comes to one that I will believe.

It depends on the betrayed spouse's personal preferences. Some need to know EVERYTHING, others need to know just the general outline. This is strictly an INDIVIDUAL thing and each BS will have to determine what LEVEL of detail they need for recovery. No one else can make that decision FOR THEM.

tw, I understand COMPLETELY why you tossed him out. I would have done the same thing. He has been gaslighting you for a long time. I think that if he does not tell you the truth, you might consider a Plan B like seperation with radical honesty and counseling being a condition of return. My concern here is that you threw him out while angry rather than having a carefully considered PLAN of seperation. But we have to deal with what we have. Do you plan on letting him come back when you calm down? Or would you consider giving him a Plan B letter?

I don't think that insurance covers counseling with the Harleys, but it might be cheaper than divorce to get a few sessions with him so he can give you a PLAN. He is not one of these typical counselors who take your money so you can listen to yourself bloviate; he is more action oriented and will assess your situation and give you a PLAN. He is not going to waste your time. So, I was thinking it would be helpful to allow him to ASSESS your situation, give you a plan and then you could pick up with a local counselor who is familiar with MB principles.

The details that I am referring to are explicit stuff like...what position did you have sex in... did you say his name during sex...

Am I crazy or is that kind of questioning entirely unnecessary?!

Does anyone have advice on how to deal with this type of questioning?

Again read my NO NO NO NO.

Look at it this way. Every detail you discover will be played over in your head like a movie. Do you really want that going through your head?

Assuming that you know about SF you can pretty much figure that out on your own. I wouldn't recommend thinking about it.

I am going through a very tough time right now based on something my FWW said in MC. I never wanted to think about the SF. I have put that behind me.

When the MC said she did need to be honest with me she yelled at me "what do you want to know the positions we were in?" Now that is in my head. Didn't want it there to be honest with you.

So I would recommend not asking about that. I know some do but I really didn't.

Sher314 - If that's what you need, that's what your Husband should provide. No one else can decide what you need to know but you. It may not be a good idea to press for those types of details but many people need them to move on. It's your call.