Al anon? I thought that was a support group for spouses of alcoholics?

I’m doing similar things.

I journal.
I pray.
I read everything I can on MB.
I try meeting H’s EN’s.
We MC with Jennifer Harley Chalmers.
I play with the grandchildren when I can.
Anger is consuming me.
I withdraw.
I work longer hours.
I have high stress daily. (job, family, health)
Nightmares every night.
I live in fear daily of OW. (Based on fact, I’m not delusional)
I’m trying to work on me.
I’m trying to do things I used to enjoy, like sewing. Failing so far.
I’m trying to think straight and put thoughts into words. Failing after reading my posts.
Trying to figure out who the he)) I’m married to.

Without the support here on MB, I don’t know where I would be right now.

Pep, let me know about Al anon. Thanks so much for your support!

It’s been a few weeks since I’ve posted. We have been busy working on our business taxes. I thought once those where done, H and I would start talking but very little has changed. My father came to stay with us for a week so it was difficult to talk then.

H and I went for a walk and started talking about the A but only had time to basically bring up a question. No time for answers. H felt better, but I felt more frustrated and angry. Nothing gets solved.

Last week on our way home, we saw OW in her new car. A car my H indirectly paid for. I wasn’t sure how to read the look on his face, but it upset me when I saw her very ugly face and remembered that he found her more appealing than me. It makes me want to vomit.

I feel like he wants to keep the secret life he had with OW a secret. He still insists the A started in June 05. I know it’s not true. The first time he was with OW, he said he was wearing a sweatshirt. H wears just a sweatshirt when others are wearing heavy coats. He only wears a light coat all winter. The entire spring of 2005 was warmer than usual. I downloaded the daily weather and put it in a spreadsheet. The night temps in June 05 were in the 60’s and lower 70’s. A sweatshirt? No way!!!

MC with Jennifer wasn’t helping me at all so I told H that he will have to continue without me. He hasn’t mentioned it since so I’m thinking he may have quit also.

I don’t know what to do. I feel so used. Not only from my H’s A, but mostly now because he won’t come clean. I get a piece of the puzzle maybe every month. A few months later, that piece of the puzzle changes. Every day we don’t solve the A issues, I feel like I’m being stabbed over and over. I have no one to talk to.

Each day I need to talk myself into a reason to live another day. I’m running out of reasons.

troubled.....how are you doing? i am praying for you.

Thanks nikko for your response. I guess I’m getting close to giving up. I couldn’t even go to our granddaughters birthday party last night.

Our situation must be different than anyone else by the lack of responses. I’m so numb it’s hard to put my feelings into words.

Troubled,

I have been really busy. To be honest your Sitch is almost exactly like mine.

I got pieces every month or so for almost 3 and a half years.

Very similar like the FWW felt entitled to keep a part of her life during our M a secret. We were married at the time. YOu weren't too embarrassed to do it why have the embarassment now.

Eventually I finally gave up. Told her it was cruel the way it kept coming out little by little. How once I found a new detail it made me rethink the puzzle and realize the one truth she just told me made me realize she lied about 8 other things.

It was crazy. Finally I quit the M. I told her and the MC I was done. I said I would wait until after the holidays then I wanted a D.

She could keep her secret but it would cost her the M. She was fine with that. Until the following week at MC when I said ok so lets get to the D counseling part here.

She thought just like the other hundreds of times I was kidding.

So I said regarding cutody I will shoot for at least 50% and I started talking about my seperation plan. Wow she woke up.

Finally the truth came out and we are in recovery.

Bottom line if you think you need the truth to recover and he won't give it to you, you will never recover.

I am living proof. Finally we are in recovery. I was right the truth sat me free. She was wrong I couldn't move on without the truth. It almost cost us our M.

Good luck. I will try to check in on you.

By the way your lack of posting might be what causes so few responses.

Thank you frognomore. I will try to post more often. I see our situations are similar in the fact that you, like me, need the truth to move on. I’m so happy that your W was finally honest with you and you both are doing well with your recovery.

I told my H from the beginning (after Dday) that I won’t rebuild a marriage based on a lie. By continuing the lies, our R would only get worse, not better. He says everything I warned him about has or is coming true. He is learning more every day but I’m afraid it will be too late by the time he “gets it”.

This is slowly killing my love for him. (I never thought I could ever say that.)

I know I will never trust him and I will never forgive him for what he did to me and the way he treated me.

if you will never forgive him or trust him again....why are you here? or for that matter why are you still married?

i know that sounds harsh but if you are not open to things getting better.....how do you ever think they will?

my story is long....and buried somewhere here.....but lets just say i live with the king of avoiders and liars. he still to this day lies about stuff.....believe me i know how you feel tenfold. but YOU have to decide if you are in this or not. that is YOUR choice. choose.

is this gonna be fixed tomorrow, next week, next year....who knows? but you have to be willing. and if he is willing.....then give us some time and him some time to work on the issues. plus, you should be working on your stuff anyway.

If this IS the case ... do both of you a favor, divorce. Why should either of you have hope in your hearts if you are determined to "never" forgive ???

My sister said this to me one time ... "I will never forgive you for _____."

When she declaired this to be her stance, I realized I needed to not care about her forgiveness or understanding and make our relationship more superficial. Which I have done ~~~> and we get along just fine. This was during our mother's last stages of cancer. I could not afford to get into a sisterly war when our parents were so much in need of family harmony. Me, I remain "unforgiven", and she remains left out of my intimate emotional circle. It is what it is. This works out for a sister-sister relationship, and I guess it is possible for you to be in a marriage without trust or forgiveness ... but I ask you ~~~> Why would you want this? Is it temporary ice-age, or do you think this is set in cement?

Pep

Geez I agree with Pep. I hate to have to type that in but I did.

If forgiveness is not an option you should just give up on recovery.

You can get a D or stay unhappily married.

If there is nothing he can do then why stay.

I am not saying by the way your feelings are invalid. I think every BS has the right to a D. I do not believe that every WS or FWS can be forgiven.

I am saying if you can't move forward then you should be honest and open and just put it on the table.

It may end up in a D but I think that is better then living under the roof of someone you cannot forgive.

Nikko, Pep and Frognomore…

Frognomore, Is that the first time you and Pep have agreed? Thanks, I just chuckled for the second time since Dday. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I should clarify by saying I will never forgive the act of the A or the actions of the way he treated me. Hate the actions not the person. IMO, for me to forgive him for the A, etc. is like saying to him that it was ok. I will never feel that way.

Why am I here? I know I’ve said this before but…..I’ve loved my H since I was 16 yrs. old. The first time he kissed me it sent a strange feeling through me. It’s hard to describe. The closest thing would be a very mild electrical charge surging through my entire body. This happened EVERY time he kissed me and got stronger over the years. (I can count the number of guys I’ve kissed on one hand but never got that reaction.) That special “electrical charge” feeling is gone now.

The love I have for my H runs very deep. I believe I defined my very life around this love. Why else would someone who is very logical and analytical, who’s job is problem solving commit suicide when they find out H is having an A? I’m the last person you would think could do that, but I did.

Sorry this is so long, but I felt I needed to give you that background. Now I know that it’s not healthy to define oneself by the love of another person. I am working on this.

The only thing my H needs to do for this M to move forward and us to heal is for him to be Radically Honest. To me, it’s a very simple request but that may be because I’m the BS.

Because I don’t have the answers to my questions, I feel that the secret life he had with OW is more important than our M.

H called Jennifer today but she said she can’t help him and told him he needs to find a C that deals with memory. We’ve been having a very hard time with our situation this week. I’ve never seen him so distraught as I did today. I don’t know what to do.

TW,

Well it took me over 3 and a half years but what I finally did was become a realist.

I NEEDED radical honesty to think about recovery. I knew myself well enough to know if the secrets, lies, half truths would bother me to no end.

I just needed my FWW to protect me from any more gotcha's. Oh I thought you knew......

Either way I was like you. I didn't like the way my FWW decided what I needed to know or what I didn't need to know.

I wanted to know what I wanted to know. She had a choice tell me or not tell me.

She always said she had told me everything and then later I find out something she didn't tell me and boom it was a horrible sitch.

What happened to me was I found a new detail then I went back and inserted it into the picture or puzzle. Then usually I realized that something didn't fit. Then I would sit down and say wait before you told me 1 + 1 and that equaled two but now you are saying replace the first 1 with a 2 and make the plus a minus and throw a 7 where the second one is and then add a nine. That is a big difference. So I finally didn't want to deal with it anymore.

We were in MC and she had finally come to the point where she drew a line in the sand. She was done talking about it. She had told me the truth and that was that.

So I said what you are saying is three and a half years of going over it each time with something different that is over and over.

Fine. I told you 3 and a half years to be truthful, YOU HAVE CHOSEN NOT TOO I now chose to stop giving you more time. I want a D.

The MC asked if I would reconsider. I said no. I will not be married to a liar.

She went back to telling me the truth. I said no I found the truth then you admitted to it.

I am done. You had your chance I am done.

You had an Affair, you hurt me. I will tell you what I NEED for you to get my forgiveness.

We have hit an impass, you will not give me what I need so I am done.

The MC asked if she would go over it with him and I next time, she said yes. Then she took it back after we left.

I said fine then we will get a D after the holidays. This time I meant it.

I knew she would not get my forgiveness without telling me the truth.

So since you are saying you won't tell me I won't forgive you we need to get a D.

So the following week I said I want a D at the MC. He asked if I would reconsider I said not under her terms.

Following week we went back and I started talking about the separation. She saw I wasn't kidding.

So the bottom line is I waited way to long IMVHO.

I should have disconnected and started walking away instead of letting it drag on.

I can tell you I love my FWW but she has a long road to tow.

Frognomore…
OMG! My FWH is doing exactly what your FWW did! Why do the WS’s do that? How can they watch their spouse struggle through each day in total despair and be able to honestly say they love the BS? In my eyes that is not love. I shouldn’t judge though because I haven’t been in the WS’s shoes. I’m just trying so hard to understand.

I printed out one of your previous responses and had my H read it. It did have some affect on him when he read it. I wish your FWW could tell my FWH what he’s missing by not being totally open with me. Hopefully, he is getting responses from other FWS’s that understand what he’s feeling.

I’m not strong enough to put up with this much longer. D was hasn’t been an option for me because of my health and not enough income to support myself. I really want our M to work, but only under the condition of Radical Honesty.

It’s so sad because my H has changed so much. For the first time he hears what I say and listens to my opinions. We make joint decisions and started to talk. The part of him I miss is the strong, confident side of his personality.

What makes me the most angry is that he gave the OW the best of his personality. The intimate part that I wanted and needed. I was meeting 10x more of his EN’s than the OW but he didn’t want to see it.

Don't get me wrong. Even with all the anger I feel inside, my H is still a hardworking wonderful man inside. If we could get through a couple of things, we could have a great M.

Fork in the road ahead. So where do I go from here?

TW,

I will tell you this. My FWW is very lucky that I had other reasons to stay married to her.

Many nights I felt like I was in a lose lose situation. I didn't want to lose to be honest.

When my FWW had her A my kids were 3 and 7. She was a SAHM and I was of course the only support.

So starting off if we got a D I would be able to see my kids every other weekend and once during the week.

I have always been a loving caring father. I had two very good reasons to keep putting up with her lies.

Over the course of time she made some pretty big mistakes that would allow me a majority of custody and that is when I grew a pair and decided it was still lose lose because I want to stay a family but at the end of the day I had to be able to look myself in the mirror.

In retrospect if I could have had majority custody of my boys from the get go I would have probably just said leave until you can tell me the truth.

I couldn't plan B because if I left it affected custody as well.

So I don't know what your sitch is when it comes to that.

My FWW kept telling me she couldn't remember. The MC asked if I believed that. I said absolutely I believe that. I believe she cannot remember the lies she has told me so she is afraid to say anything.

I am done with the information confirmation sessions. She tells me a new truth I inject it into the previous truth. Then I figure out the lies. We go for months until I finally figure out the lies and do it all over again.

She can take her lies to her lawyer. If she can't be honest I can't be married.

I said eventually it is all coming out because I will need to depose the OM for our D. So there you go.

The truth finally came out. We are in recovery.

As a matter of fact after my FWW finally decided to tell the truth and then comitt do doing whatever it takes for as long as it takes the MC said he really didn't need to see us anymore.

I had moved on from the A but not the lying.

So for me the Fork was I needed to repsect myself. She had an A. I had a right to tell her what I needed to start recovery. IT wasn't a bargain. Either I got it or we got a D. She had every right to say no.

She kept saying I did tell the truth.

I am sure from your story your FWH has said we have gone over this a million times already, as if when he did it without being completely honest it counts.

I told my FWW I want her to keep going over it until the story doesn't change one bit. That she has been completely honest.

Good luck with the Fork. Ask the FWH for directions. The fork on the left is honesty and recovery the fork on the right is lies and divorce.

Frognomore…Thank you so much for sharing your story with me. I printed out your last 2 posts in MS Word and read them to my H. I think it had some affect on him.

You said in your posts many of the same things I’ve been saying to him since D-Day. Maybe because the words came from a man? Could talking to other men on MB be the key? I don’t know, but it’s worth a try.

My FWH also asked if I thought you would talk with him.

I hope I’m not being pushy or forward, but I’m desperate at this point! Things are going downhill rapidly for us. Would you be willing to post to my FWH? Since H and I don’t know each other’s name on MB, I would have to think of a way for you to connect us.

You figure it out and I will absolutely post too him.

I am glad it may have had some effect.

fnm – Thank You! H has his first IC session this afternoon so he won’t be home for another 6 hrs. I will talk to him then we will both post at that time with something to help you connect us.

Thank you again!!!

Just let me know. If you want he can go to recovery and just ask me to join. I think if he really wanted to know about how hard it was on me he could probably search my story. Too. I won't do it because I really don't want to read it.

I will tell him my turmoil came from the lies.

But anyway. I usually don't post except at work mon-fri pacific standard time.

So if I don't respond right away tell him I will.

Thanks! I will let him know. We are on central time.

Hi t_w,

I need to ask you some questions.

Have you read the Harley Concepts on the main site? Which of them have you implemented?

Sometimes the problem with a lack of Radical Honesty is that the BS does not make the FWS safe to tell the truth. I believe it may have been MelodyLane earlier in your thread who touched on this, she said that she realized she interrupted her husband a lot in counseling. I was the same, I didn't make it safe for my husband to share his truth with me.

Yup I said to "SHARE HIS TRUTH".

It's a fact that affairs cause chemicals to secrete in the infidels' brains that are as powerful as heroin and morphine. It is extremely difficult to think clearly, remember clearly, or make good decisions while under the influence of powerful drugs and the affair addiction is no different. There will be some things that will be difficult for your husband to remember, and if he is truly remorseful there will be things that are painful to remember to the point that he won't WANT to remember them.

At any rate it is extremely important for him to tell you the whole horrific story from start to finish as best he can remember it. This is his story to tell you in safety, so there should not be any third degree, or any interruptions while he's telling it.

After my husband finally told me the whole truth I had to say thank you for telling me, without getting mad or reacting in any way, that's how to make it safe for him to talk. Once he's talking in safety the facts and his perceptions will come out. Quite honestly I doubt the date of the first kiss is that significant to him that he remembered it. I know that my husband couldn't remember the date but he could remember the basic circumstances that gave us a time frame.

I'm very confused on your time frames. Exactly when and how did you find out about your husband's affair? What was the reason you decided not to speak with Jennifer anymore?

From what I have read, I believe one of the major difficulties in your (lack of) recovery is the severity of the dysfunctional communication between you. It also seems like you are totally focused on the affair, not that I blame you at all, but it's in your best interest to also focus on implementing the Harley Basic Concepts into your marriage. Love Busting is one thing, as things improve you will find that less compelling, but Disrespectful Judgements will hinder your attempts to communicate. A lack of communication will further widen the rift in intimacy that you are suffering from in the marriage, a lack of intimacy that may have contributed to the affair in the beginning, so you really need to work on that as best you can under the circumstances, and that's one reason I strongly recommend your implementing the Harley Concepts.

You have some great things going for you, 1) your husband is willing to post here and get help here. Puts you way ahead of the game. 2) Your husband appears to be remorseful, even with the issues you have sited regarding the trouble you are having unraveling the affair story. I do think he will be willing to give you the whole story if you can make it safe for him to do so.

The worst of Disrespectful Judgements is what I call the Disrespectful Assumption. That is when you decide you know what he is thinking or feeling instead of allowing him to share his true feelings and thoughts with you. It's the worst kind of mindreading and will not help you in the long run.

It's ok if you decide you don't want to continue in the marriage, but if you are going to stay together for the time being while you decide whether you can recover with him, then you must give him the opportunity to redeem himself through his current actions, those are being where he is supposed to be when he says he is, allowing you total access to his email, passwords, financial information, phones, etc. Not the past, you are still sorting the past out, but the present information.

For now, there's one other thing that you need to think about and that is your own effort to start building some good memories into the present. You cannot only talk to him of the affair. It will not aid your recovery to ignore him except to speak of the affair. I strongly suggest you set some time limits on affair talk. Dr. Phil in his book, Relationship Rescue gives some of the best advice about this, and that is that men in particular feel trapped when they don't know that there is an end in sight. If your husband feels trapped or as if he's under interrogation than he's got to know that there is a time limit for it. Half an hour at a time should be more than sufficient if you are having affair talk most days. Otherwise you are not making him safe to tell you his affair story.

It really doesn't matter what you think about the affair story, it's his story to tell. If you want the answers you are only going to be able to get them from him. So you must make every effort to quietly listen to his view of what happened.

Believe me, as he gets further and further away from the affair his perceptions about it will continue to change. Think about it, in a recovered marriage the former wayward spouse has to change their perception because what once seemed to be a good idea, becomes the worst mistake of their lives, and that is a complete change in perception.

The story you get early is one tainted by the affair addiction, and if you want to recover, you want it to change, not the facts of where and how, but the perception of it. I know that it hurt my remorseful husband to have to tell me the gory details, at the same time I needed to know the truth of what I was dealing with in order to decide I could forgive it.

So I'm not saying you shouldn't require the truth, but I am saying that you need to have some common sense and compassion about what is acceptable. It's not acceptable to assume that he every thing he says is a lie. If he can never win he won't feel safe to even try to tell his truth.

TW,

I posted. Now I have to agree some with M4L.

He has to know one day the questioning will end.

I told my FWW and the MC all I needed was to hear the story more then once without any significant changes.

So for instance she said we went to dinner and she spent 40 dollars. Then next time she said she went to dinner and it cost her 50 dollars. Fine that is a bad memory. The major points she did go to dinner and she paid were still the same.

That was fine with me. Now if she said I went to dinner then paid and went home. Then it was she went to dinner paid had sf then went home. OOPS. That was a big change.

Now my thing was also how easy is it to forget certain things. I don't have a perfect memory.

I think I could remember the start time pretty close and the end time pretty close. Stuff in between maybe not so much depending on how big of a deal it was to ME.

What I mean is to me if I had an A and I met my GF at a starbucks today because she was driving by. I might forget that in a year. Now if I met her in a starbucks and had sf in my car I probably wouldn't forget that. I might forget the exact date but probably not the event itself.

So if you saw a receipt and new he was at a starbucks he might not really remember but if the SF was in there I think he would remember.

I hope that makes sense.

The other point is ground rules. At some point you have to agree to stop asking if he has told you the truth.

To me it is like a TV show or a movie or a book. Sooner or later no matter how good it is you get tired of seeing or reading the same thing.

As long as the story stays about the same you will get tired of hearing it.

Then you can move on.