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Mates4Life and Frognomore,
I agree with you also. The questions would stop once I felt he was even close to telling the truth. My questions aren’t unreasonable. It’s not that I just don’t believe him. I KNOW he’s lying.

I started typing a short answer in Word but I got to 2 pages. That was the short version.

I’ve read everything on the MB site many times. I have nearly everything printed out in 3-ring binders.

Both H and I started implementing the MB principles in Oct. 06 when we started MC with Jennifer. Very difficult for me to do because of his lying, my job and my illness. I tried meeting his EN’s our entire M. He would criticize or push me away. When I laughed he would tell me to settle down. There are many times I can’t do anything because of a chronic illness.

It was suggested that we talk for one hour at a time. Here is how our hour goes….
Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H feels so much better that we talked about the A. I’m still waiting for the conversation to begin.

Our next 1 hr. conversation about the A 1-2 wks later.

Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H is really spilling his guts isn’t he?
Sorry, I’m getting angry as you can probably tell. One hr. doesn’t work for us. It may work for him, but we get nowhere!!!

The “I can’t remember” stuff was put in his head by our first MC. He has used it to the max. After the MC said there may be things he won’t be able to remember, he started saying he can’t remember. He remembers names of boys from other towns that our boys played against in sports 15 yrs. ago, what town we were in, the score, and many other details people don’t normally remember. I could give many more examples.

I quit MC with Jennifer because I was still at square 1. Going thru our EN’s made me angry. Going thru the LB’s made me angry. H trying to fill my EN’s makes me angry. I have only 1 EN and that is Honesty.

Jennifer and my H were moving ahead but I wasn’t. If I had the truth, we would have been flying through MC.

As far as “his truth”. If it weren’t for the 2 or 3 big fights in the last year, we would still be at “we were just friends” and “nothing happened”. For many months he put me through he)) saying “I am being honest”. Then after a fight he tells me I did get the STD from him being with the OW. I calmly told him thank you for telling me the truth. Inside I was so angry. I already knew that.

H does everything for me now. I don’t want a puppy dog for a H. That’s what he was for OW. I’ve always wanted him to do things with me not for me. He has very bad days and as usual, I cave in and comfort him and try to build him up.

He says and does so many wonderful things now. But, he is showing me the secrets he and OW shared are more important. I won’t start over in a M based on lies and secrets. My morals are the only thing I have left. Sorry, this still is very long.


troubled_water
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WS/(H) EA 3+ yrs?, PA 1 yr?
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children grown
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TW,
Do not get me wrong you should get the truth.

I had the same thing from the MC. The one hour talk with the same thing.

Our MC put the I can't remember stuff in there too. I am just mean enough to turn it around on her.

We disagreed about something in the past. I decided I was always right. Her memory sucked right!

I did it in MC one time I thought he was going to fall over laughing.

I said something she tried to correct me. It was before Her A and she can't rember that far back. I said. I think we should go with what I say. If she can't remember her A she certainly can't remember what happened before that.LOL.

I would suggest your H putting it down on a timeline type calendar.

Give him some time to work on it. For him to fill it in the best that he can.

I think even if stuff is missing but you see he is trying to the best of his ability to tell you the truth it will go a long way.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Quote
It was suggested that we talk for one hour at a time. Here is how our hour goes….
Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H feels so much better that we talked about the A. I’m still waiting for the conversation to begin.

Our next 1 hr. conversation about the A 1-2 wks later.

Husband:
“I love you and want our M to work.”
Pause.
“I had an A.” “I wish I could change it but I can’t.”
Pause.
“I am being honest now.” “I lied in the beginning but I am telling you the truth.”
Pause.
“I know I destroyed you.”
Pause.
“I don’t know when the A started. I told you when I honestly believe it started, but you don’t believe me.”

OK. The hour is up. H is really spilling his guts isn’t he?

Why do you keep letting him start the conversation?

Have you tried preparing a list of questions and then YOU start the conversation by asking:

"Tell me about how many times you <whatever> or did you ever <such and such> or <where was your first x>"

That way, you can target each conversation to what you want to know and just work down your list?

Mys

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Are all these long pauses a device to waste the allocated hour? Because my husband tried that and I told him any pause more than 5 minutes and I would reset the entire clock. I was determined to get the full amount of time I felt entitled to.

Also once I had the barebones story I had to ask questions to get all my answers, I think that's is pretty normal though some FWSs do just spill it all. Conflict avoiders will not do that, (my husband, FNM's wife, your husband.. all seem to be conflict avoiders).


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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Me FBS - 44
Him FWS - 51
I married him all over again, May 07
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Dear TW,

My FWH is a lot like yours. Our 2nd day he denied everything until I kept bringing the truth/facts which were undeniable. That was in Oct. '04. I didn't have MB and really didn't address the A or recovery very well, lots of LB and DJ's. I would bring up the A, get the I don't know/I don't remember answers. It progressed to FWH saying the talks were too much and if I wanted the answers I should write down the q's and send them in an e-mail, but on 3-4 at a time bc it was too much for him, and we would set aside time to discuss. What happened with this was the time wasn't taken to think of the answers so on the rare chance we set up a time to speak, it wasn't productive.

Then we had trouble with our second son who was in college who found out about the A and withdrew from the second semester '05 classes as he was sick about it and in counseling, I found the paperwork in July '05 for the withdrawel. I insisted on MC, which FWH wouldn't do before this. We went from Aug of that year to March '06, nothing much changes except the counselor finally said to him what is the reason you won't answer the q's, and FWH said it is bc he can't remember and he is being honest. MC said you can remember some of it so you need to just bite the bullet and get it done. Which he did and I thanked him. Here's the but, I don't think the fog was cleared even at that pt. and I believe that some of the answers have changed, such as why did you have the A? As he gets more clarity, he can provide more useful answers for recovery. Before the A happened bc I won't support a business idea of his and he was angry, so he became convinced I was evil incarnate and nothing I did was right. Ow on the other hand supported his second business venture, emotionally, without leaving her H or investing in it financially, oh yeah, that would be me!

All I can advise you is to keep trying until you can't, or it gets better. I'm at the pt where FWH knows I won't put up with his 'stuff anymore, either he works on the M or we are done. He would just coast if it were up to him.

I think the BS has to stand up for themselves, otherwise the WS hasn't any motivation to help the BS recover. My motivation lately has been more of an individual journey of healing as my FWH won't do MC, won't do the questionaires, he'll agree to it and then "forget". I chuckled about the puppy statement as that describes my FWH. I don't want that either. In our sitch I make 4 times, at least, what FWH makes. To be honest, I don't think FWH could financially make it on his own and that is his motivation for the puppy behavior. I think bc of this, I can't trust him when he says he loves me or misses me. Him saying this only came about in the last 3-6 months.

So, I see the fork as well, I have hung in there, I think I am losing self respect for my willingness to accept crumbs, and then try to figure out the "real" intent behind it.

If FWH had said I want this M and will do everything to help you heal, as long as it takes, and actually follow-through with this, then I would have been jumping for joy. He said he wanted to try again, but he didn't try, until fairly recently, maybe 11/06 forward. So, my love has gone to a trickle and I'm left with those sayings, love is a choice, love is an action, etc., I hope those phrases are true, otherwise, I can't stay in this R.


Me-49, WH-51
Married 02/1983 yrs, Sons - 27, 26, 20
1st PA - 1985, 1st known EA - 1992/1993
2nd PA - 06/02 to 11/04
1st D-day - 09/03, D-day 2 - 10/04 D-day 3 05/08
NC e-mail - 11/04- it wasn't real
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I'm here just to check on you this morning. You do realize that you and your husband do not have to agree on everything to recover. I think there seems to be one big discrepancy here, he considered the start of the affair as the first sex act, and you considered it to start before the first kiss?

I actually can see that happening. Many many people erroneously think that it's not cheating until you actually have sex.

That's how decent people cross the line. The boundary that says anything you wouldn't do in front of your wife is cheating.. that same boundary that is crossed when you engage in flirting.. the first step that leads directly into an affair. You think it was fun flirting with that person but s/he's not my type so it's harmless. Until suddenly that person is so much fun it doesn't matter that they're not your type anymore, you're enamored.

This is how affairs work. It's not rocket science. And though recovery is hard, it's not rocket science either. It's much more like a simple recipe:

Two willing spouses
tons of compassion
15 Hours a week undivided attention
stir in some recreational companionship

Bake in a clear and transparent Policy of Joint Agreement container for 2 to 5 years to build trust over time.

Sprinkle liberally with forgiveness.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

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Me FBS - 44
Him FWS - 51
I married him all over again, May 07
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I don't understand what the problem is with him setting up a timeline for you. You've got that man so rattled he doesn't know if he's coming or going.

It looks to me, seriously, as if you're just taking your anger out on him. Ok. I can understand that. It won't save your marriage, but I don't think you care about that at this point. Some day, though, you may very well regret how you handle this now.

I recognized from D-Day that my entire life depended on my actions and whether I kept my wits about me.

Let me tell you something else, both Frognomore and I suggested making the timeline. So what's the deal?

I very strongly suggest you two get a pro-marriage counselor to help you communicate about the affair, because you are doing a bang-up job of destroying your chances for a successful recovery, Troubled. You are foggy and wayward yourself now, in my opinion. You have got to be able to effectively communicate with anger boundaries enforced, and I don't think you can do it without an advocate for both of you in the room.


[color:"#39395A"]***Well, it's sort of hard to still wonder if you were consolation prize in the midst of being cherished.***
- Noodle[/color]

Devastation Day: Aug 26, 2004
[color:"#2964d8"]"I think we have come out on the other side... meaning that we love each other more than we ever did when we loved each other most." [/color]
[color:"#7b9af7"]
~Archibald MacLeish[/color]

Very Happily Married
Me FBS - 44
Him FWS - 51
I married him all over again, May 07
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TW,

You are now getting a lot of great of advice and point of views.

What I am noticing is that you both seem to have a communication problem. It is fairly common though. Heck my FWW and I still have one. LOL.

I think though on his side he has to know it will end. He has to know if he does it a certain way it will be ok with you.

I know where you are. I suggested a timeline that he sit down and actively work on. Give it all of his effort. Then discuss that with you.

You can also guide the conversations as discussed. Ok I want to know about ...... Do not get off topic, do not accept going that way.

I think your old way of communicating is a habit. You both have roles in it.

You both continue to play your roles. You stop playing your role. Become the person that delves.

I think you are seeing as a general rule BS's want details FWS want vagueness.

My FWW actually said I had an A that is all you really need to know. LOL.

I think your H being here says a lot.

If he agrees to sit down with a calendar and start trying to fill it in would that be ok with you?


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Thank you frognomore, myschae, mates4life and nahobio. I’m going to try and answer everyone’s questions. Let me know if I forget any.

I fully support him on doing the timeline! I think it is the best idea we have gotten so far and wish he could have done it a long time ago, but we didn’t know about it then. I have no problem at all with this and told him so last night. I thought he understood that but now I’ll have to think if there is anything I did or said to make him think otherwise.

H asked me for some ideas how he could proceed with a timeline. Told him I could throw out a couple of ideas, but maybe it would be better for him to get some ideas from someone on MB. We both have thoughts that quickly jump into our mind then are gone just as quickly. I suggested to him to write down all the rambling thoughts in a notebook as they pop up in his head. He can then take them and add them to his timeline. He was pressuring me for some ideas and that’s all I could think of at the time.

Last night H came home and told me he would like to talk about the A after supper. We also needed to get stuff ready for our tax appt. on Fri. and get a shipment ready. I had a glimmer of hope. I asked him what he thought we should do first, thinking he would say “taxes”. To my surprise he said we would talk first. I told him we wouldn’t have time to talk if we had to work on taxes and get a shipment ready since it was already about 7pm.

Just knowing we were going to talk and maybe start to clear the air was great but I was cautious not to get my hopes up too high. We made supper together and talked all the while. After supper, we sat on the sofa. I promised him I would not say anything during our talk. No LB’s or DJ’s or walking out of the room. I told him I will probably cry, but that’s all. He agreed. I had my box of tissues close. I was very calm and felt I could handle anything he could throw at me.

The talk started about MB and the great people that are taking time out of their busy lives to help us. We talked about him doing the timeline. I told him I thought it was a great idea. He thought it would help both him and me. I agreed. Then he talked about something that happened at work, him not being very good with computers and it takes him so long to type his posts on MB because he types with 2 fingers. It was almost 8:30 pm and I realized by now, we weren’t going to talk about the A. H said his AD’s were wearing off and he was starting to feel “weepy” as he puts it. I told him it had been over an hr. and since we are supposed to keep it close to an hr., I said we don’t need to continue any more tonight. I was very calm and as I had promised, no DJ’s or LB’s but felt depressed and let down once again.

H came to bed around 10:30 or 11:00. I was half asleep. He just laid there staring at me. Told him I didn’t feel like we were going to make it through this. Things went downhill from there. By now his AD’s were worn off.

It didn’t matter what I said, he took it as a LB or DJ. Because of this, I can’t talk about how I feel at all. I try to keep my feelings locked inside but by now I couldn’t hold it in anymore.

I told him he denied the OW nothing. When she called, he was out the door within 3 min. He left me on Mother’s Day, Christmas and 3 min. after coming home from my eye surgery to be with her. He did anything and EVERYTHING she asked. He agreed with this fact 100%. He had no problem talking to her about anything but I can’t get one fact of the A, not one fact, not ANY fact.

He asked me why I didn’t want him to do the timeline. I said what? I want you to do the timeline. Then he said he was going to have it done by Fri. no matter what. Told him I thought he needed more time than that to work on it. Rushing isn’t going to help.

His story was never the same so now he says nothing at all. He said he has memory problems. I asked, so you forgot everything about the A? I was so frustrated by this time I said “I didn’t know f-ing her was so traumatic for you”. I immediately said I was sorry for saying that and felt bad. He got up and left the room. I don’t think he came to bed all night except for about an hr. this morning because when I woke up we were snuggling.

Before and during his A, I felt like I was walking on eggshells. Had to be very careful what I said and how I said it. Had to be careful not to laugh out loud. It didn’t matter. Everything I said he would tell me “that’s stupid”, just ignore me or tell me to settle down.

It sounds like my H was a total jerk. He wasn’t. He was/is a very loving, caring person and he was/is gorgeous. It’s just that he said some things that were very hurtful to me.

I feel I’m still walking on eggshells. He tells me to ask questions, but when I do he says he feels pressured. I have to keep everything inside. The stress is affecting my illness and I’m missing 30-50% from work again. My job of 27 yrs is now a temporary position. I have a job until the project I’m working on is done or until the end of this year. Because I give 200% every day that I am at work, I have the option of moving to another position. The positions so far are ones that I am not qualified for, required a pay cut, extensive travel or involve many long hours. Sorry for rambling.

I mentioned to H last night that maybe it would be helpful if I stayed at our oldest S’s house just for a couple of weeks. It would give him time to work on his timeline and I would have time to think and work on me. He didn’t like this idea because he said I wouldn’t come back.

Myschae,
To answer your question, yes. A few months after D-Day, I did write down some questions and gave them to him to answer. If I asked them, he said it confused him because he had to shift gears all the time.

Here are some of the questions:
-Why an A?
-Were you that unhappy with me?
-What could I have done differently to prevent it?
-When did it start?
-Where was the first time?
-What were all the phone calls about? (Hundreds of calls. One morning there was 14 within 2 hrs.)
-What did you spend $20,000 on? (Didn’t bring anything home and OW doesn’t wear jewelry.)
-Were you in love with her?
-Did you ever tell her you loved her?
-What where you thinking when I said I had an STD and you still had SF with both of us without protection?

I don’t think these questions were/are unreasonable.

I waited for us to discuss them. Every time I asked how he was doing with the questions, he said he was half done. I finally demanded he tell me the answer to 3 of the questions. Each answer was basically 1 or 2 sentences. OK. Not much, but he promised he would finish the rest the next day. He spent hours in the living room working on them over the next 2 weeks. I asked how he was doing, he said fine. He said he needed to rewrite them because he wrote answers under my questions. Had to write small and was messy. More waiting.

One day, I was going to polish the dining room table. I tossed the runner and a couple of notebooks from the table on the kitchen counter. When I did this some loose papers fell out of one of the notebooks onto the kitchen floor. I need to say here that I can’t read anything without my glasses.

I went to put the papers back in the notebook. I couldn’t read anything but recognized them to be my questions and every question had something written below it. I quickly put them back in the notebook. I was excited because I knew he had them finished and we would be going through a few of them. A couple of days passed, I asked him how he was doing on them. He said fine and was about 75% done. Huh?

This was ongoing. I asked for answers to 3 more questions. He wanted to finish them all before talking and just had a couple of notes on some.

One day I came across a little jar of lotion I had thrown away months earlier. It was an herbal lotion OW gave me to help the bruises I had from my car accident. It was in a small box and when I pulled the box down, 2 papers fell from under it. It was my questions. No more had been added since the first time I saw them on the kitchen floor.

This was a big fight. He said he didn’t put the jar of lotion there. If he put the notes under that little box how could he miss it? Who put it there then? The dog? Why did he lie about my questions?

Sorry, I’m rambling again. I have no outlet for my anger and frustration and it’s building up inside me. The Dr. increased my AD’s for awhile to help me handle some of the pain, so I’m at the max dosage now.

Mates4Life,
My H has always avoided conflicts.

Nahobio,
Ya, your H sounds like my H. I told my H I really believe he will tell me the truth someday. It will be when he’s standing over my grave.

If I wasn’t sick I know I would have left right away. I don’t know if it would have been for 1 day or 1 month. All I know is that I was in so much pain I didn’t want to live. I love him too deeply so I know I would have to at least give him a chance to explain himself. I guess I still would be where I am now anyway. Sometimes I wish I didn’t love him so much. That’s terrible to say but I think it makes the pain that much more unbearable.

Thank you everyone! With your help and kick in the pants as needed, maybe there is a small chance to save our M. (Trying to be positive here.)


troubled_water
BS/ (me)
WS/(H) EA 3+ yrs?, PA 1 yr?
D-Day 2006
children grown
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TW,

IMVHO some of those might be hard to answer and the answer may change as some more self realization occurs.

Let me give an example.

Why an A.
Right after D Day my FWW said it was because I was a bad H.
Then it changed several times.
Finally it was because she was selfish.

So you see that answer may change.

What did they talk about during 100's of phone calls. Probably lots and lots of things. Plans, whether, you, work normal stuff. But for him to remember every convo they had. I can't remember things my FWW and I talked about last week.

The Money maybe ask about big purchases. I can't recall where I spent the 100 dollars I took out of the ATM on Sunday.

I hope you see the point I am getting at.

I will say this you need to CREATE a SAFE environment for him to be honest.

He had an A that is really, really bad. But that does not give you permission to treat him poorly and yell mean disrespectful things and DJ him.

Good luck.

It looks like he will do the time line. Look at your questions and make sure they can really be answered.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Mates4Life and Frognomore,
Yes I’m angry. I’m very angry and try very hard to keep it inside so I don’t put any pressure on my H. I’m not a robot. Is it fair to expect me to pretend everything is fine, fake a smile, fill his EN’s like the A never happened? I know that’s what he wants even though he says otherwise.

I thought we were making very small steps forward even though I knew H was still lying. He seemed to listen to me for the first time. For a couple of weeks, we talked about the A when I started to feel upset. This cleared the air and for the next couple of days we felt very close. After one “clear the air” session, the next week was the best in our lives. No LB’s, DJ’s or disagreements of any kind. On the 7th day I started to feel some anxiety again and asked if we could clear the air again. Things came up constantly. We haven’t done this since.

Since then, my nightmares have gotten worse. Dr. said I have PTSD. I miss more work. I am becoming more withdrawn.


Quote: “You are foggy and wayward yourself now, in my opinion. You have got to be able to effectively communicate with anger boundaries enforced, and I don't think you can do it without an advocate for both of you in the room.”

I don’t understand what you mean by me being foggy and wayward.

Even if it was humanly possible for me not to get angry, if I did this, my H will never talk about it. That’s the way it was with the “fling” he had shortly before we were married.

I have been willing to try almost anything, but I’m not good at faking or pretending. It’s just not in me. I’ve always been an open and honest person.

H is a different person. DIL even said so. I don’t care when the kissing started. I know it went on for years. I just want to know he loves and respects me enough to tell me the truth. I need him to prove this to me. The only way he can do that is to answer a few questions honestly.

When I asked a question, he gave his answer. Then, when I asked the question later, I got a different story. OK, so be it. I waited a while then asked the question again. Once I got 2 consistent answers, I moved beyond it. The problem is, I’ve asked the same question and got 9 different answers.

The questions would end. I just need proof that he can be honest with me and for the first time in our M, just once, be willing to put me before the OW.

As far as the money, I’m not unreasonable. If you take a loan for thousands of $$$ out of your 401k would you remember why? If you withdraw large amounts of $$$ from your business or from your home equity would you remember? He went through $20000 in a yr. and totally trashed our credit. ($20000 and climbing as I find more.) I’ve been adding things I’ve found to a spreadsheet. It has gotten so large, I may have to create a database just to be able to sort it all.

I feel like I have a 1000 piece puzzle but 500 pieces are missing. The 500 pieces I have are from 9 different puzzles. I can’t do anything else until I put this puzzle together. A nuclear bomb has destroyed my reality. This puzzle is the only thing left amongst the ashes. There is nothing else for as far as I can see. I’m frustrated and I’m supposed to just smile and put the puzzle together. I feel like it’s my fault for being frustrated and I should just be happy to have a puzzle at all.

I am working on the LB’s and DJ’s. I promise I will try my hardest to do this. I don’t know how much more of his silence I can take though. I’m at the end of my rope.


troubled_water
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Troubled,

You remind me much of myself a year ago. I, too, had a FWH who claimed to be remorseful but had that pesky "creative memory" syndrome. There was a point where I was obsessed about knowing every little detail of the affair, about her, etc., and I could ask him the same question on two different days and either get two different answers or the oh-so-convenient (for him) "I don't remember." Watch Court TV and you'll see all sorts of defendants using the same tactics, with the same wide-eyed innocence. Actors all.

After all, if you conveniently don't remember something, you can't be caught or nailed for it later by the prosecution. In this instance, the prosecutor is you. Your H is on trial for his life as represented by your marriage.

I am not good at faking happiness either. My first year as a newlywed has been far more h*ll than happiness, but much of that has been my own doing. My FWH is truly remorseful as well, and committed to making this work, but my own obsession, anger and bitterness has nearly derailed the whole recovery process time and again. Every time we started to see a glimmer of hope, or things seemed tenatively good or calm, something would trigger a relapse in me. Things that were impossible to control or predict. I imagine you are suffering the same sort of thing.

I find movies and certain shows are particularly risky in this aspect. There was a particular dancing show that I enjoyed watching each week, until the night that a competitor came on of the same (somewhat rare) nationality as the OW and out of nowhere that beast of fury and hatred consumed me. I never watched the show again. Day in, day out a BS lives this sort of half-life during recovery. So I know to some extent what you are living with and so do many others here.

But, dear Trouble, you must admit it: No matter what he tells you now in regards to the OW and the affair, you will not believe him. He cannot win. That unfortunate fact is what will cause both of you more pain and unhappiness than anything else.

Your H has made his own bed by lying time and again, now he has to accept that you cannot/will not believe him, but YOU also need to accept that nothing he says will satisfy you because trust has been absolutely and utterly destroyed. I think I told my FWH that at one point: "You could tell me your eyes are blue now [they are] and after all this I wouldn't believe you."

The policy of radical honesty is all well and good, but until a WS totally and willingly reinvents themselves, it's like putting lipstick on a pig.

You say the spark between you two is gone. Others have asked why you want to fight for a dead ember and I must, too.

Troubled, you deserve so much better than to torture yourself with this. You may have to accept that you may never know every little detail, or how and when and why and where. I came to that realization myself only recently.

I'm not so sure that dwelling obsessively on these details is any sort of progress in your healing. I know it didn't contribute to mine in any fashion. And yes, I identify totally with the anger and the feeling that forgiveness of any sort is condoning or letting them get away with it - but what is the alternative? Hang on to your rage and bitterness, fight and bicker every day while your H desperately invents answers to a list of questions to satisfy an EN you think you have?

An EN you only think you need for closure, because I suspect that even if he answered all those questions with multiple paragraphs and details, I doubt very much you would believe much if any of it. You would spot one tiny inconsistency and then be back to proclaiming it all lies. How is this progress for either one of you?

One day your H may grow tired of the grilling and constant search and demand for answers. One day he may just say "enough" and walk out, no matter how good-natured he normally is. It will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

If you both sincerely, desperately want to save your marriage, another tactic is needed. That is the point we came to, which is why we are going to Retrouvaille this weekend. We are not even religious and are willing to try anything. It sounds like you may be at that junction as well.

I, too, am tired of hurting, obsessing, and aching over the affair. I need to learn how to let go of the rage, not for him, but for myself. It has consumed a year of my life, one that should have been a time of newly-wedded bliss.

These are just some thoughts I wanted to share because, as I said, I hear many of my own plaintive cries in your words.

Be well and I wish you healing, whatever you decide to do.

~Silverwraith


~Silverwraith

Me - BS - 44
Him - FWH - 45
2 1/2 yr. marriage
PA was all during 2005 during our engagement and up to the night before our wedding (2/17/06); EA continued afterwards.
DDay - 3/2006
NC - 10/2006
Retrouvaille - 4/2007
------<@

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Mates4Life, Frognomore and everyone,

I want to apologize for my anger and want you to know it wasn’t directed at you, I’ve been reading the posts from this week over and over. There are things in your posts that have triggered me to do some very deep thinking.

Thanks for the 2x4! Please keep posting. You are helping us/me more than you know. Thank You!!!

This last month has been bad and the last 2 weeks have been exceptionally bad for me. When I went back and read what I’ve posted this week I could see that the anger over this A is consuming me. I know now I need to find some constructive way of releasing my anger. Just need to find what will work for me.

Last night I was 100% free of DJ’s and LB’s. H was very quiet and all conversation was very generic. Only time we were together was when H took me to the Dr. The rest of the time, H helped our middle S install CD player in my car, or was on MB. I also was on the quiet side for fear of saying the wrong thing. I know this isn’t the way it should be, but I didn’t want any LB’s or DJ’s. Feels like the way we were just before and during the A. I’m hoping today will go better.

Silverwraith,
I’m so sorry you had to experience this kind of pain as a newlywed. I do feel much the same way as you do/did. I can’t listen to the radio in the car or the CD player in the house. I used to listen to music while I cleaned the house. It made the job go so much faster. Now, our son is installing a CD player in my car. I can’t tell him it won’t get used to play music. Maybe I’ll have to get books on CD and play those.

There are many movies and shows on TV I can’t watch anymore. There is very little in my life that isn’t a trigger. Time is supposed to heal all wounds and the triggers get less, but mine seem to be getting worse.

I feel like I’ve lost an entire year of my life. When we did talk about the A I would refer to “last year” or “last summer” when I was talking about 2005. If you ask me what we have done so far this year, I couldn’t tell you anything unless I looked at what I’ve posted on MB or the few things I’ve written in my journal.

This bothers me also. My parents are elderly and may not have a lot of time left. I’ve spent some quality time with them when I’m able to but there are many days I can’t even call them. If you ask me what special things I’ve done with my parents, I couldn’t tell you unless I looked in my journal. We have 2 new grandchildren and I have trouble seeing them. My fear is losing important memories of another year. Not just with family but with my H as well.

“Lipstick on a pig” What an image that is! Now I’ve chuckled for the 3rd time since D-Day. Thanks, I needed that!


troubled_water
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TW,

Everything you are feeling is normal.

It is how you express your self that may be causing some problems.

Listening to a FWS talk about an A sucks, but if he doesn't feel Safe you will never get what you want which is honesty.

So if you are going to DJ him and call him names you probably will not get what you want.

If he feels he can sit down and tell you as a means to an end which is recovery he will be more likely to open up.

I see you getting a lot of good advice go with it.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Troubled,

Here is some more advice on triggers - things I have discovered that have helped me.

No, you can't screen everything on TV or the radio for potential triggers, but certain choices are safer than others. I find light comedies work well for me (just be sure infidelity isn't the theme or presented in a 'harmless' or comedic fashion.) I know there are religious Web sites that "screen" movies for family viewing, give detailed reviews and a warning about any inappropriate content - those might be useful for modern films. We like old movies and old sitcoms and for the most part those seem to be fairly safe choices.

I, too, find a lot of joy in music. You didn't say why you couldn't listen to it anymore, but please don't give up the essence of "you" completely. If there are certain songs that bother you and you're worried they will come on the radio, control your world by making/burning your own CDs. But sentencing yourself to silence or endless dry books on CD doesn't sound terribly fun or healthy.

I am still somewhat raw but revisiting the idea of reclaiming my turf, so to speak. Last year I had sworn there were certain events "forever ruined" for me by the actions of FWH and OW, and I made a big stance by refusing to partake in once-beloved things I considered sullied by their disrespect, but I am beginning to rethink that stance.

It's not like it affects or bothers the OW when I deny myself things I once enjoyed - it hurts only me. Makes me bitter and resentful towards FWH too, and things get tense between us.

Why not take a stronger stance and say, by choosing to embrace your music or other things you enjoy, "Sorry, OW - you may have taken everything else, but you can't take this from me."

Honestly ponder the question: What would hurt the OW more (or make her angrier) - you wallowing in self-pity and denying yourself any fun, or you deliberately and joyfully CHOOSING to do things that will help your healing? I bet it's the latter. Imagine her pouting or screaming in frustration when she sees you reunited with your husband and reclaiming your power.

Don't give the OW the power and satisfaction of thinking she has successfully ruined your life. Yes, I still think of the OW almost every day, but now I deliberately stop myself whenever I start to obsess. The time and energy I spend dwelling on her and the A are gradually dwindling. I think it's a step in the right direction.

I hope you will reclaim YOUR power, YOUR joy and YOUR life - remember, OW hasn't earned and doesn't deserve any of it.


~Silverwraith

Me - BS - 44
Him - FWH - 45
2 1/2 yr. marriage
PA was all during 2005 during our engagement and up to the night before our wedding (2/17/06); EA continued afterwards.
DDay - 3/2006
NC - 10/2006
Retrouvaille - 4/2007
------<@

"Speak when you are angry, and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
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Frognomore,

I agree completely with you. I am getting very good advice. That’s why I made a promise here, where everyone can see it, to try my very best to avoid LB’s and DJ’s. Maybe I won’t have 100% success at first, but it’s a goal I intend to reach. I may need to come here to vent during the rough times. Just know that it is never toward anyone on MB.

No LB’s and DJ’s for a few days. I haven’t mentioned anything A related. It’s just like it never happened. H likes it. On the other hand, I’m getting more depressed and lonely.

I want my H to feel safe enough to tell me anything. I’ve never experienced anger to this magnitude before. Even if I was the best wife in the world, I’m not sure he will ever be able to tell me the truth. Sorry to be negative here, but IMO, he will be getting everything he wants.

As far as the timeline, what is a reasonable length of time for him to finish this? Rough idea? If I never ask, he will never offer. Just like the list of questions from last year. Never went through them. Will it be the same for the timeline? Probably IMVHO.

Silverwraith,

Thank you for the advice on triggers. I do tend to stick with comedies and old movies. I used to love romance movies. Probably because I never got it from my H. Not the mushy stuff, but the more believable, lighthearted kind. I was having a very good day when I purchased the movie “Indecent Proposal”. We both had seen it before so didn’t think anything of it. What a mistake! In the very first love seen, I had a panic attack and lost it. LB’s and DJ’s all over.

H and OW had SF in OW’s car with the radio on. OW and I liked the same kind of music. The words in most of the songs are usually about a man and woman. Every time I hear one of these songs I wonder if it was playing when they were together. Yuk! I get nauseous. I also wonder if I did play some of my favorite songs, would some of these remind him of being with her? I know what you’re thinking…..not logical. I agree. But that’s where I’m at for right now.

As far as the OW, nothing, and I mean NOTHING would bother the OW. Even though I have proof, she still denies anything happened and told me to go get help. She has no remorse or guilt and has convinced her BF that I’m making the whole thing up.

She doesn’t like losing. She has always told me she always gets what she wants. I spoiled her plan by discovering A so she isn’t finished with me yet. OW told my H she has gone through great lengths to hide her past so nothing could ever be linked to her. Things have happened to me during the A and since D-Day. We now know OW is very dangerous, a psycho and is very patient. Just more stress to deal with on a daily basis.


troubled_water
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children grown
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I am a BW. My question is: Can a WS who shows remorse for having an A be truly remorseful when they can't be radically honest?
To me is simple; NO matter how remorseful they appear, if they are NOT totally honest and transparent about the A and all you are entitled to know....They are still LIERS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />


Me- BW 47 Him- WWH 49 2 daughters/ 21 & 15 D-DAY - 3/5/07 PLAN A ONGOING "ONLY TWO DEFINING FORCES HAVE OFFER TO DIE FOR YOU; JESUS CHRIST AND THE AMERICAN SOLDIER. ONE DIED FOR YOUR SOUL, THE OTHER FOR YOU FREEDOM!!"
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Soyestadista,

It appears you have just recently found out. I’m so sorry! The people here on MB are great. They can give you support, ideas, a cyber hug or the occasional 2x4 to get you back on track. Hang in there!

I don’t know if my H will ever be able to tell me the truth about the A. He has changed and has become more truthful about present things. It’s just the past he can’t come clean about yet. I have always given in to him our entire M. Honesty is one thing I refuse to compromise on this time if he wants to be married to me.


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Sat. we picked up my dad to get his hair cut. H did too. Did some shopping after. I got very tired and almost passed out in the store so we came home. H and I made lunch together. After lunch H said he would go back to town to finish the shopping. I asked if he could wait and I would go with him later after we take my dad home. That way we could spend some time alone together. He acted like he didn’t want me with him. He was gone for hours but got the shopping done.

We got back from taking dad home about 8:45 pm. Went to bed about 9:30. As soon as H’s head hit the pillow he fell asleep. He worked hard and was so tired.

Sun. it was very nice outside and I wanted to be outside. H was working on various things. Very little communication between us. I became depressed and went back to the bedroom and cried. Oldest S brought new granddaughter so I babysat for a while. After that, H went on MB, then worked on his timeline. I went to bed. Very little conversation.

I avoided all LB’s or DJ’s all weekend. Things between us seem like they are going back to the way they were before and during the A. Maybe even worse. I suppose I should get myself to work. Going in later so I don’t have to come home so early and try to pretend. I can’t handle the way things are between us. I feel like I’m going to explode.


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No LB’s and DJ’s for a few days. I haven’t mentioned anything A related. It’s just like it never happened. H likes it. On the other hand, I’m getting more depressed and lonely.

Your entire M cannot be about the A. However being depressed and lonely will not help. I think I saw you were on AD's not sure but see if the doc can tweek them. Also IC might help you. For me this board and IC helped me say a lot of the things I needed to get out that I owned.

Let me tell you this though take a look around this board you are not alone.

Quote
I want my H to feel safe enough to tell me anything. I’ve never experienced anger to this magnitude before. Even if I was the best wife in the world, I’m not sure he will ever be able to tell me the truth. Sorry to be negative here, but IMO, he will be getting everything he wants.
That seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. When I read that I see you giving yourself permission not to be the best wife. Even if you do he won't tell you the truth right. He gets everything he wants.

Prove it. See I my FWW used to have thinking like that. Even if I ....... you still won't...... So then she doesn't and I don't and she was right.

However if she did ....... there is a chance I might ........

To me that is an insult you are telling me what I will and won't do. How about she .......... and then when everything is said and done maybe I will or maybe I won't but please don't tell me I won't just so you don't have to.

On the time line. You know your H. His typing seems to be horrible. He doesn't have a lot of time and it seems hard for him to communicate. Those are observations that may be wrong.

First you need to openly communicate your expectations. IE what you want to know.

Then ask him HOW LONG do YOU think it will take. Then give him that long. I am not saying a year or two though lets be reasonable.

He says he started. The goal here is radical honesty.

The more detail you need the more time it will take.

Again watch out for those LB's and DJ's.

Good luck.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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