IAIS,

Crying is healing, I promise. Give yourself permission to cry, to feel, to know and get your signals...only way is inward and you are brave going there. Trust yourself in advance...

What if you have a habit of a human doing...and human being is difficult? Where you fix, solve, move forward very fast...as if the cure for yourself is in motion...instead of stillness?

Can you give yourself permission to just be? To sit and be still, whole and alive? Breathing, feeling, thinking, believing, perceiving human being?

To not allow yourself to judge, just exist for an hour? No motivation other than to listen to yourself, know where you hurt and where you do not?

I remember reading that sharks never stop moving or they die. I felt like that nailed my fear of being still...that if I stopped earning, solving, fixing, pleasing, then I would cease to exist...as if my entirety were contained in action.

Helped a lot to be told I was a human being...in the throes of doing...because I am.

You are.

You are a created being, IAIS...loved within your own creation, and remained loved.

Significant, essential and here, right now, a part of everyone; separate and equal. You really are.

In the human design, we carry old wounds...they aren't holes. Nothing lacking. Our brains hand us a lot of images, automatic reactions, as if what injured us before is happening now, right now. Overwhelms us in the present with a lot of the past...and our brains think that's what we want!

You are very early into discovery of the truth...a reeling time, hard to grasp and believe. Thank you for reminding me because I forget that...in my same ol' forward thinking, doing to feel better mode, I stepped right over that. See how you care and love yourself? You signalled...I got it.

Good self-care. Thank you.

Would you say you aren't in a place of clarity, no matter how much you crave it...not a place for life-changing decisions? A lot to grasp, sit with and know inside?

When we're in that place, we have a deep urge to run, cut off the source we believe is causing pain...be cured of it quickly. Our most vulnerable state giving us that urge...and reality remains, the pain lasts...divorcing doesn't stop it...may give us the false feeling we've fixed something...and the pain remains.

Which is why, when we lose our spouse to death, we are told not to make any life-changing decisions for at least six months.

Why not apply that to an A? It's very much like a death, of what we thought was true and real...we need time to comprehend the enormity of all that loss, all its tendrils and where they are wrapped up inside of us...before we choose our lives from new knowledge...not reactive signals.

I ache to read you felt disgust of self...I remember, almost verbatim, thinking and stating what you did in your last post...the very motivation which kept me a human doing is in what you expressed very well...and I used that self-bashing to change my life...in a new way. Which is what I acted on in my posts to you...overwhelming...I get that a lot. My way to connect...not bad or wrong...take what you need and leave the rest for later...which is what I heard you say.

So now I'll share with you why your screenname resonated with me...

When I was in your place of anguish and fresh in knowledge of betrayal, a man shared with me at Alanon a mantra...and I didn't meditate, was suspicious of mantra's...and I listened because the chaos in me at the time was resounding...and his voice was clear...and he told me to say, "I am"...repeat it...dwell in it...if I wanted to live from truth, not fantasy.

"I am."

And is often the case when humans feel so lost, I reached for that and took that action...which was my mode to fix, to try, to find my way...and I'm ever grateful to myself for listening and doing just that.

I said it many times a day...to bring me back to truth, to the present, as I spiralled into the past and clawed at the future. I am.

See, in the song, that's what the character is saying...and notes there's no one there, not a caring element presence...and he steps over himself...erases his very existence when he turns his focus on saying it aloud and the lack of response, hence, of care, in receiving the news.

He hears. He matters. Therefore, he exists.

Don't step over that truth, IAIS. You hear. You matter. You exist. And the universe is different because of you.

That's where faith steps in...to know, not from response, but truth. Choose faith. You are. Hear, know and care that you are.

LA

Loving you Anyway, what were you doing posting at 2:30 a.m. (unless a big server delay caused posting time, you and I were up at the same time!) I wonder when I will get back to some kind of normal sleep pattern?!

Your interepretation of the song I borrowed my screen name from: Neil Diamond's I am I said was very thought provoking and I read and reread. You wrote: "See, in the song, that's what the character is saying...and notes there's no one there, not a caring element presence...and he steps over himself...erases his very existence when he turns his focus on saying it aloud and the lack of response, hence, of care, in receiving the news.

He hears. He matters. Therefore, he exists.

Don't step over that truth, IAIS. You hear. You matter. You exist. And the universe is different because of you."

I interpreted his "I am" message as a cry to all others that he was important and that he wasn't "erasing himself" by saying so out loud. However, your comments about Alanon advice helped me and your description of your feelings (especially the doing part) helped me to refocus on the idea that I simply "AM" and matter. I will have to continue to ponder this!

WH responded to my email that I could not continue and would seek separation and possibly divorce. He said "K if that's how you feel". I responded this morning "I don't know how I feel day by day, minute to minute". That's it - no "I am I said.... : - ) " Your advice is very good. I know it but resist it because I have always been the "doer" the fixer etc. you describe. I am, as you already know, a bit of a control freak. SO, to lack control much less clarity of what I think, feels unbearable.

I don't know if we can avoid divorce. I really do not want a divorce but I am just so tired and as you said old wounds cause me to react and want to flee! Plan B sounds really good one minute and the last thing I want the next. You asked if I am in a place of clarity. Certainly not and I will resist urge to make fast decisions, but how long will he be able to put up with the roller coaster ride?

Thank you so much for caring for me. By doing so, you are so important to this family (a small place in the universe) but I know what happens in next month will have very long term (generational) impact.

"but how long will he be able to put up with the roller coaster ride?"

Why ask that? Your focus, on you, your "I am" and make yourself a promise, if you need to push off of him...

What he did in choosing to have an A was to make his feelings his guide through justifications.

You know you can have false feelings...signals from false beliefs...think of his main one...you didn't love him...you threw him away...those are false beliefs...which drained his own love bank, and then he chose to act from the low level or zero level...which is backwards, isn't it?

Don't choose to do the same...do not act from your urge to run, like it's divining your true intent behind your back...hit it head on, face forward...and choose to act from your beliefs, after you've checked them.

Changing one belief has a domino affect...use your signals to trace your feelings back to the belief they are coming from and find out if it's valid or fog-induced...

Totally your choice.

Don't worry how long anyone does anything except you...you have no control. And I heavily advise Alanon...best place I've experienced for us control freaks...and I wanted to write, "we control freaks" but that wasn't a wee bit in me...I was an enormous one...and yes, even had withdrawal from not allowing myself to participate in that fantasy anymore...that I could control, cause or cure anyone of anything at anytime.

Ack!

Freedom is worth the withdrawal, I promise!!

You're welcome for my choice to care and act on my choice...I believe you don't have a small place in the universe...I believe you and your son ripple around the world in unforeseen ways...and you're right long-term impact...

What we really teach our children is how to live...marriage is the most important lesson they learn...how to act from love, not react; how to rely on our beliefs even when our feelings aren't signalling we love right now...how to live from truth and respect, controlling only ourselves (and that's all critically important to parenting)...and how love lasts and lasts and lasts...as long as we choose to believe.

You can teach your son he's whole, complete, equal to everyone on the planet...that his I Am is HUGE and important and real...

The power of the human design and it's healthy limits...

Lots of great stuff...modeled through marriage, which is what we know...how to live...thrive or survive, living skills or coping ones...

You can do this...be still and breathe...love deeply and with true intent...your self...you've been missed.

LA

I AM IN A VERY DARK PLACE TODAY ____ ALL DAY __ CAN"T FUNCTION!! I also wonder why this BB thread has just been two of us talking, no one else wants to join us. I would welcome others.

Despite great advice, I am filled with RAGE today and I really would love to just REACT and hurt my wayward husband. More than that, I AM and I need to feel cared for and appreciated. Unfortunately, being cared for on the BB isn't filling the emptiness today like it has in previous days. It really angers me that no matter what I need emotionally, I have always been sensible - logical = didn't have an affair etc. I am just so tired and lonely and disgusted with my situation. This internal battle - what I desperately want is to just feel better whatever it takes and my logical side that wants to reconcile with my husband and work through it and not reactive - this battle is KILLING me today!!!!!!! The love bank is empty now, but I do not know if it is wise or foolish to admit it and move on..... Also, loving anyway advised me to consider how great a gift I would give my son to see me work through problems in our marriage. Yes, I want to be a good mom, but I am sick to death of having to be the one that teaches, deals with day to day stuff - the pain while the WWH goes about his business without us in another state.

Come on, I can't believe none of you reading this have anything to offer ot some similiar experience? Please join the conversation that I have going with Loving Anyway - we will all certainly benefit from her advice.

I am,

I go through what you're feeling almost daily. The only thing that seems to really help me is to refocus and mostly just to pray. I'm a Christian and when I feel like I've been put through more than anyone should, I think of the agony that Christ was put through and his response to that. Even if you're not a believer, believe that there will always be someone suffering more and doing it with Grace.

Hi IAIS. What I have figured out from my own experience is that my FWH was selfish. He made decisions not based on what was best for his daughters or his wife, but what was best and easiest for him. He sees now that those decisions weren't even best for him, but at the time that's how it appeared to him. It stills blows me away when I think about all he's risked.

Thank you for joining our conversation. I guess my problem is that when we went through this 7 years ago, as Christians we prayed together, went through Christian counseling, he seemed to have truly repented. He accepted full responsibility and that he had sinned against the vows and life God intended us to have. In the last two years, with him in another state, we have not made a place for God in our life. Now, I don't really pray and don't think he does. This time his reaction is more sorrow and guilt - not repentance. I will be posting and update because important events have happened. Thanks again for joining the conversation!

Thanks for joining the conversation. His A was easy - wife and child are hundreds of miles away. Not sure if he realizes that what was easy for him hurt so many. I have to post an update based on evens that have just happened. This time it feels like he is very sorry for the A being discovered, but not sorry about the A.

D DAY of the A was Jan 2, 2007. Sometime in the next few weeks, I sent an email to the OW (not a very nice one). This morning, she sent me an email response (server issues on her end explain the delay, but it blew me away - not expecting it.) She was nice enough to answer 10 questions for me (the A having ended a year ago, but discovery recent).

WWH working out of town (in her town) before he moved to another state (not where family home is). Basically, he deceived her also - she didn't originally know he was married because he didn't wear his wedding ring. She says he informed her that we were married but living in separate states to keep a home together for our son (10). She was very honest, even about questions about protection (I think) and was forthright in answers. I thanked her and intend to have no contact - wished her to live a good life based on wisdom of this bad experience. He has still never apologized to her. I don't believe he has contacted her - she says no contact since last summer when she assumed he was back together with us because he stopped contact. She is as angry at him as me, but wishes to put it all in the past. He hurts us both and moves on???? I have given up on the no contact letter, doesn't make sense to pursue it now, but don't know where to go from here. He is supposed to be home for good - was supposed to be this month, now probably mid March. That's good , long-term distance from each other had alot to do with the A, but still do not know if I can forgive and rebuild. Not in the ANGRY, RAGE place anymore. Believe it or not, talking with the OW via email helped -- I asked for info and promised to keep it confidential and not contact her again. I can do that and actually feel better in some way. What do you all think? I have told him that the only way I will agree to stay with him is if his company keeps him here - no extensive travel. We've been apart so much, just having him come home is going to be HARD - like a military wife. Of course, he told her just enough at some point in the A to make him look innocent and me nothing. I still think he truly wanted me to find out about it - why else would I find a card from her with photos of her on his bedroom floor nearly a year after the A -- and he is a bit of a neat freak??? Sorry, for the random thoughts, just wonder what you all think of the conversation with the OW, what I should believe or not, and next steps.

An update - I posted (or thought I did) this update here last week or week before -- gremlins have taken over - maybe it is posted somewhere else.

I awoke Sunday a.m. - checked office email only to find an email from the OW!!!! Shocked me and I still had an event that day to attend to for my job. WH , to my knowledge, hadn't seen her or spoken to her in a year. I sent an email to her immediately after D Day - Jan 2007, didn't get response until March. She indicated computer/server problems - whatever.

Point is, I did not blame her, even though my original email was angry and threatening - asked to have a conversation. I posed 10 questions and she answered all of them, I believe with honesty (and some info held back just to not hurt me).

Fact is, my husband represented himself to her as a single man and he hurt both of us - both of us felt jilted. He has not apoligized to her, she doesn't believe that will ever happen (I do not either)/

As hard as it was, the email conversation was VERY HEALING ! I assured her that I would not share her responses with him, drag her into any divorce proceedings (don't need to since he has already confessed to so much via email), and showed her the empathy she deserves - a stranger who hurt me , but who was also hurt by my husband and had me "slam" into her life a year after the brief affair/ I promised her no further contact ever and have no problem keeping that promise - maybe that is why she was willing to converse with me --- no threats, just a desire for information. Believe me - tough to ask her about protection and advise her to be tested, tough to ask her for advice on what my husband was thinking should we reconcile, but definitely worth it. My anger has subsided.

Now, I must figure out next steps - he will be home full time soon. I will be moving to the other board - general questions to figure out how to cope and deal with restoration. Loving you Anyway --- thank you for your help - hope you will stay in contact (and all others who have responded._

Time and some "settling" of my emotions have finally allowed me to revisit your adivice and seriously ponder. You wrote in response to me --- "And it's where you can share your fears, like your FWH did with you when he said (with a big fat DJ in there) "FYI, if I write it, you could change all my words - not going to happen and I know you it will never be good enough" He fears your expectations, requirements...exactitude. Not just in the NC letter...in a lot of ways. Doesn't mean you are...means this is what he fears, why resistance and anger is his reaction, from fear...

Good stuff to know."

I can see that I have treated my husband - a man in charge of multimillion dollar pojects day to day - like a toddler who needs me (just a book smart girl) to lead him and teach him how to be as good, smart, whatever as me. I am ashamed. It is all about power for us - the power struggle. I need to continue to think about where that comes from - good idea already - my mom (now deceased, dad left her after 39 years of marriage and many afffairs) was a DOORMAT and she did not have an education. So, I obtained the advanced degree to be no man's doormat, taught school, but now treat my husband like my 12 year old kids..........

I would hate me too.... more to think about... thanks Loving Anyway!



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IAIS,

I missed your 3/8 post...now I'm caught up. And I've had that experience, also...where I thought I'd posted and have gone back...and no post! Very weird sensation.

In response to your latest post, would you consider that understanding your WH's fear doesn't mean you are hated?

I remember feeling ashamed when I realized how I treated my DH...much as you describe...and yes, for similar reasons...so I'm not bashing you for what you've done or how you've done it...and not for taking it to the extreme, either, because that's what I used to do...as if punishing myself would fix me.

It doesn't.

Just gave me license to punish others.

You aren't the bad guy...and I'm not talking bad or good...what we do below our own radar can drive us nuts...my highlighting, for your consideration, is so you can feel and know you're sane...and human. Whole. Complete.

My own control freakishness, my exactitude, came from my great fear...and it took understanding my DH's fears and pains for me to see my own...that's how much I lived through others...had to get back to myself the same route I exited me.

What I had to do to change was to pledge NOT to bash or punish my way back in...because I'd harmed myself so much...from my own fear. Knowing my fear, without judgment, gave me the power to change. Judgment is crippling. I believe your WH doesn't hate you...he hates your judgment...even as he hates his own stuff, as well.

Very human. Strive first to understand, then be understood. What you do to yourself, you'll do to others...

The more I kept my awareness up for where I parented, instead of partnered, the less I reached for judgment and self-bashing...and the more I saw the man I fell in love with...instead of the boy I'd made him into in my mind...from my fear.

It's a loop, ya see. Ending the loop, not the relationship, is what we're all here for.

I do believe you'll get more traffic posting on the GQII forum...and you can put a link to this thread into your sigline, for each of use.

I'll go with ya, you know.

And another thing to remember about your mom...she chose. She made her choices, even as you make your own...every step of the way. She had a payoff you couldn't see...and you bought into it having to do with not having an education...I didn't see my Mom as being a doormat for that reason...she constantly put me down for having book smarts but no common sense...she had more money than my father...she could have chosen to divorce...it wasn't until recently I found out that she married my father two days after her divorce was final...so now I'm wondering if she chose, and continued to choose, because of what she'd done, what she'd chosen to do...

Complex humans, aren't we?

Knowing and understanding others' stuff...respecting it is their own...is how we stop treating adults as children, and raise our own inner children with love and respect...grow into mutuality with others...partnering...though no one showed us the road to it, demonstrated it...how could we even envision it? We get there when we set our intent to be there...to live from it and thrive, anyway.

In your corner,

LA

LA - thanks for the response - very busy last few days and that is a good thing, I think--time to think in quiet moments(usually while driving - only missed a FEW exits) without DWELLING! You wrote, Very human. Strive first to understand, then be understood. What you do to yourself, you'll do to others..."

I am attempting to do that now, thanks for the non-judgmental understanding and story about your mom - makes great sense and NEVER thought of her choices - and they were her choices - get that now better than before - by doing so I cannot explain my OWN CHOICES - they are mine.

I am frustrated with the BB at moment - thought I posted on General Questions area with link --- will try again but may be a few days - too much to do tonight and next few days.

I will say I worked very hard to communicate with my WH this weekend when he was home in terms of "I statements" not you and blame statements -- tough. Still waiting for an apology for his really rude treatment and lack of affection -- but not holding my breath. Still so much to do, in terms of communication , therapy, etc. I am resisiting his desire to simply fall back into old patterns because I want better - not just for me but for all of us.

Good to see you again, IAIS...

My sympathies with frustration with the BB...and thank you for slogging one through.

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Thank you for the update...they are welcome, anytime, 'k?

Sounds like you're really working on breaking your enmeshment with your WH. As well as a million other things.

You're worth waiting for.

LA