Posted by MarriedForever in the Recovery Forum. How about some expert help, here in GQII. I'm very concerned that her FWS is reading here but not supporting MF being here for help.

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Ok, first off, since alot of people who read here already know this, let me tell you ~ my FWH reads here sometimes, so I try to be very careful about my wording and LBing...just so ya know.

I have often thought of that conversation we had on the phone and wondered the significance of it occurring while he was 3,000 miles away...I think two other times throughout this mess I've seen him tear up and/or cry a little, a very little. Not that I believe that you must cry in order to show or feel true remorse. It just so happens that the one time he showed true remorse, he was crying. So that's my only context.

What is specifically stalling our recovery? Well, I already know that if he reads this, it's going to be a huge LB to him, but since you asked and I am getting desperate for help, I'm going to say it anyways...

He is just not interested at all in trying to learn how to have a better marriage. He says he "just cannot read that stuff" (talking about any of the MB Basic Concepts, trying to learn how to better meet my ENs...yesterday I asked him if he would just read one little thing, I told him it's a chapter in a book (the one on Independent Behaviors in "Lovebusters"), but that I would go through it first and find the most important parts, or even look for a really shortened version on the website. He shrugged his shoulders and just looked away (that was a big fat "no, I won't do it" ~ I've been married to him long enough to be able to read and understand his body language very clearly).

He keeps repeating over and over how he just "cannot do this relationship stuff". That by me even *being* on MB is a LB to him, that it just totally turns him off and pushes him even further away. He doesn't want to talk about any of it, or try to find an active way to fix our M and help me heal from the A. When I ask him what HIS idea of "fixing" this is, he says "Just to keep doing what we did on Friday night ~ that fills my love bank for you; this relationship talk / stuff DRAINS my love bank for you.".

I didn't say this (I don't think), but hearing him repeat that again and again over the past few weeks / months, is a huge, huge LB to me. It drains my love bank for him to zero, because I lose all respect for him, AND because it is really painful to hear. I just cried when he said that yesterday. All I hear is "You aren't worth it, MF. Saving our M isn't worth it. I just "cannot" ("won't", to me) do this relationship stuff". I'm still hurting really badly over his A, and then to hear him say this over and over is just too much.

(So, on Friday night, we went out with some friends of his from work ~ met a bunch of people at a bar for happy hour, it was his friend's birthday. Then we left there and went to our favorite bar (just the two of us), and sat and had a few more drinks and hung out. It was great and we had a lot of fun together ~ when we're doing stuff like that, we always do. Trouble is, going out once a week to a bar and drinking is all fun and everything, I like it too....and I'm not asking that we stop that, at all. It just isn't enough for me.).

I need some real emotional connection too, and that is sorely lacking. I am not sure he understands what this is; truth is, I might not either. But I DO want to find a way to figure it out, and get there, even if it will require hard work. I think it would be worth it in the end.

We are looking at March 2nd as a deadline for him to let me know if he thinks he can pull it together and work on this with me. That was a decision I came to last week because I can't stay in this limbo anymore. We aren't getting anywhere and I can't keep living like this. I am trying really hard to make it to March 2nd, because I believe sticking to your word is important. But yesterday when he kept saying over and over that he "just cannot do this", I told him that he should probably just pack his stuff now, then, if that is his decision. Then he grabbed my hand and said he was sorry; but still no commitment from him.

I can make it till the 2nd; I told him I would.

Ok, I'm crying now...I have a bad feeling I know where this is going to end up.

--------------------
BS(me)-34 y.o.
FWH(MFsFWH)-37 y.o.
DD-10 y.o.
DS-8 y.o.
DS-6 y.o.
DD-3 y.o.
D-Days - May 1, 2006 (EA); May 19, 2006 - H finally admitted it was a PA as well - my world ended that day.
Married - 12 years, together 16 + years

[/quote]

Have you seen an attorney to find out about spousal and child support? I would do that before going into Plan B. Your husband sounds very self absorbed and unwilling to make any effort to fix things.

Maybe when he looks at the financial consequences he will have a bit more interest.

Hi Believer!

MFsFWH doesn't want her to post here since he says it's a Love Buster for him, but he also states he's not interested in working the Harley program especially he has indicated that the POJA does not interest him, so if he tells her not to post or read here, but isn't interested in POJA, than doesn't that excuse her from POJA-ing the MB forums in that case?

Normally I say to lead by example in introducing the Harley program, but in this case I feel that her giving up the forum wiil cut off her most effective means of getting help.

If she were to respond to this thread, it would only tip her hand on her thoughts. And she is already "posting on eggshells" whenever she does post.

I'd probably tell him that I "just cannot" be married to a man who would rather lose his marriage than actively seek out solutions.

Just bend over and smile is not a recovery plan.

Hey guys, it's me....

{{{{Mates}}}} ~ thank you so much for doing this for me, I cried yesterday when I saw this post, and how much you are trying to help me. I love you, girlfriend!

Ok, first of all ~ everyone say a prayer that H doesn't see this, it could really screw things up for me...

Believer, I'm going to secure my finances the best that I can. We live paycheck to paycheck, no savings. I'm going to open up a cc in my name only, and hopefully get a few more apps in the mail so that I can open up one or two more. Luckily we have a cr**load of equity in our house ($400 grand or more), and it's in my name too, and IF we D, I will get half. That is the best I can do for now.

H knows that if March 2nd comes, and he still believes he *cannot* more actively participate in healing the M, then we separate. His parents live 5 minutes from us with a lot of extra space, and that's where I'm figuring he'll have to stay. We don't have money for an apartment or anything, which I am actually thinking will work in my favor. He is not going to like living with his parents, at all.

Plus, they really, really want us to work this out, so they will put pressure on him to do whatever it takes for us to stay together. His two older sisters recently got divorced, and he's seen what it's done to his mom, and to all of his nieces and nephews. He thinks it's despicable, knows that every one of the nieces and nephews now have problems because of the divorces, and it's very sad to see. He does not want that for out kids. He also will not want to disappoint his mom ~ she's very prone to nervous breakdowns and watching his sisters go through D has been very hard on her. He will not want to do that to his mom.

All of these things will work FOR me, I believe. It might take him some time to see it, I don't know. He's very tunnel-visioned right now and keeps saying he can barely think of what's going to happen in the next minute, much less trying to see into the future, and making plans for that. I believe that he is VERY wracked by what he did (extremely out of character for him, not a womanizer, not a flirt, AT ALL. Never has been), and is shielding himself from that by just focusing on the here and now. I know deep down he hates himself for what he did.

If we start working "too hard" on the marriage, relationship, recovery stuff, that is all he will be able to focus on and it's very, very painful for him. He grew up in Denialville, and that is all he knows. Anything that hurts just gets stuffed away.

I am NOT excusing his behavior. I know that he *does* have a choice, he *can* force himself to work on our M, if he chooses. I know it will be hard on him. I will probably fall on the floor cying tears of joy if he tells me that he will work on it with me, like he means it. I know that's a hard one to gauge, but I've seen it in him before.

I believe that it deeply hurts him to have to "work" so hard on the M, because he knows that if he had not slept with someone else, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. So working on the M just reminds him of his horrible choices.

I also strongly believe that he does not want a D. He loves our kids, our family, and even me. It's very hard for him to show it right now, because the closer he gets to me, the more he feels my pain and my hurt, and he does not like the reminder that he is the cause of my hurt. Again, I am NOT excusing his behavior. I just want to make it clear that he really is not a monster, he is just a very scared, lost man...one that I want to help see that he *can* do this. He may need to see it from the stance of looking from the outside in, though. I don't know.

Here are my questions:

How dark do I go? Do I go really dark so that he does not see me at all, and gets none of his needs met by me?

(I Plan A'ed for a long time ~ 6 months after dday, while he was all fogged out and in withdrawal. I just can't do it anymore, I'm becoming resentful, angry, frustrated, tired of not having any of my needs met. Then he LBs hugely when he starts saying that he just *cannot* do this; or buries himself with his independent interests (mostly because I think he's too afraid to really be "alone" with himself, or me ~ he just might see or feel something unpleasant).

Or do I do more of a "let's spend some time apart, start kind of "dating" again" (each other only, not other people)kind of thing? Or do I go dark FIRST, to give us a nice big break, and THEN start the dating thing?

Or is all of this a bad idea, and maybe there's a better plan out there?

Any and all advice greatly appreciated....I'm so in the thick of it, I just can't see clearly. And I want the best possible plan to try to make this work.

I would advise if yu go dark..go DARK.

See...the let's try dating thing won't work for YOU because honestly that is his comfort zone.

He could be happily THAT amount of intimate and no further the rest of his life...getting what ENs he wants met and withdrawing when it gets too close for comfort.

Dating does not in any way create a consequence for him that might inspire MORE effort.

.02

No hiding.....the WS or Xws needs to know that the BS has to go elsewhere for support.

My WS said he hated Harley's plan and hated me for posting here. He babbled more stuff.....to nasty to write.... That was then.... while H says he still doesn't like Harley, he respects my posting here (which has been for 7 years) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> .

I told my H I initially posted here for support since he was not giving me any and that it helped me keep him alive. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

He also knows I post here now to help and give back some of the support I received during my dark days. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> He has even posted here a few times. It's not his kind of thing....but he respects me for doing so and I am grateful for that respect.

So don't let the WS' babble stop you from getting the support you need as much as you need and when you need it.

JMHO,
L.

islh, I am unfamiliar about your sitch...but I can relate...my WS is EXACTLY the same way with everything. "I just can't" is an acceptable answer to everything and it is not up for discussion. My WS has so much CRAP buried down deep that I believe she was bubbling over and that is what caused her A. this is problematic because even though I believe that she will see the light and want our M back (I am in plan B,) I doubt her desire will be strong enough for her to change the way she deals with the world...she will have to undergo major personal issues..the way she deals with anger,guilt,frustration... her coping will have to change in order for us to really share the pain of this A and get past it.

I suspect if I have the chance to get there, that she will behave exactly as your FWH is. and I am already realizing that I will not tolerate that. Part of recovery has to be participation in some form of communication. some form of dealing with the pain that was caused and I believe that if WS is not interested in helping to healing my pain, then it may not be worth it for me to waste my time on recovery with her.

One thing that is true of my WS is that she CAN do anything she puts her mind to....working overtime...holding down a job and school...being thoughtful to friends...but the point is she rarely WANTS to. my WS is very selfish...controlling...will refuse to do things just on spite.



I also feel that my WS is scared and lost and hurt...but we cannot save them...they HAVE to wake up and chose a life...chose to deal with the pain they have seen and caused and move past it. We have to respect them enough to set them free to heal themselves, only then can they be a complete person and an equal half of a marital partnership.

My WS told me once that OP doesn't let her get away with saying " I don't know what I think about it" OP forces her hand and makes her talk....WS told me she wished I did that...well guess what??? I am doing it now. if she wont communicate on any level, we wont have a M to work on anyway.

JMHO

Believe me, I would love to say this to him...but I'm dealing with a VERY passive-aggressive man here who is very fearful of feeling controlled ~ it makes him panic, I can see it in his eyes.

Forcing his hand DOES NOT WORK. I need to find a way for him to WANT to do it...to make myself as attractive to him as possible. I am considering Plan B now only because I am having a very hard time Plan A'ing him any longer, and that is doing nothing to help him WANT to work more actively on recovery, it's probably only making it worse. I am just tired and burned out ~ his affair started about a year ago, so essentially I have been in Plan A (on and off) for a year. I can't do it anymore, it's getting to be too hurtful.



Very good point, noodle...

Here is my concern:

He fell in love with me once, when we were "just"dating. Everything was light, fun and all games....

I can be a pretty fun girl...especially when my needs are being met, and there is no pressure. I've been feeling a LOT of pressure while in recovery mode because I was the only one (seemingly) interested in recovery.

I think he will be able to meet my needs more easily when he doesn't have that nagging feeling in the back of his head that "all" I want to do is work on our M. (this is not true, but he believes it to be true. And I just cannot convince him otherwise). We have a lot of fun together when we're just hanging out.

I am thinking if we are "just dating", it will give him the chance to be with me without any pressure. There will be a limit to this period of time ~ I will not go on like this indefinitely. But to be able to go out together once or twice a week, kind of re-connect, may stir up some flirting, loving feelings again....and it could make him WANT to come home and start really working on this.

I just don't know. Not trying to say that going dark is not the way to go ~ it may ver well be. That's why I'm asking.

And Orchid ~ I don't hide my other posts, he knows my screenname and (until very recently, he's really busy at work now, he says), used to read all of my posts. I don't really want him seeing this one because I need advice and a plan before I tell him what I'm going to do. I want it to come from ME, not from him reading it on the board first.

fighting ~

Thanks for the comments. Our Ss sound similar. For both of our sakes, I really do hope that they come around. What is hard for them to see, I believe, is that they are going to carry these issues around with them whether they stay with us or not.

And, just to throw a curve ball in there, H just called me....wants to take me to a very expensive Valentine's dinner tonight ~ the only night the restaurant is doing this type of thing...and if I'm not well enough, that's ok....(I've been sick for a few days now)...but wanted to ask anyways. I said yes, of course. How could I not?

I'll take alot of Advil and Sudafed or something...just to get through. Gotta remind him while I can that I AM fun to be with, that I love him, and that we CAN have a good M.

He makes my head spin, that man. I tell ya....

Anyone else? How dark to go?!?!?

OK...

Did everything that was discussed on the boundaires thread just fall off the planet?

What you have posted REEKS of a failure to understand what is yours to muck around with and what is not.

It is not your responsibility to GET him to be willing or to GET him to do it or to rearrange, bend, twist, and otherwise ...

here it comes take a deep breathe this is going down hard...

MANIPULATE him into doing what you want him to do.

You stay on YOUR side of the fence and enforce YOUR boundaries.

Anything beyond that and frankly he SHOULD run scared the other direction.

Do not fall into the trap of making your choices based on what reaction you want from him.

Post deleted by MarriedForever

The distinguishing line between plans A and B.

I think you jumped into "recovery" as opposed to RECOVERY and sort of skipped that clear line of demarcation.

Now in THIS post my impression was that you have completed plan A [which would meet all needs he'll let you and should NOT include a lot of recovery style relationship dissection] and were contending a quasi plan B.

Quasi plan B is a disaster in every single situation I have observed.

The entire point of plan B is to remove yourself from the equation and allow the other person to face life without you should they choose to be unwilling to meet your requirements.

So...where ya goin' here?

Hi there!

I've read most of your stuff for a while.


No, actually, it's not. Plan A and Plan B are implemented in the first stages of marital recovery in order to separate the wandering spouse from their affair partner. You are long past that.

I wonder if your H would feel more kindly towards the MB program if he realized just this much:

(C&P from Dr Harleys columns on this site, emphasis mine)

"Why do I encourage an apology when the Takers are adamantly opposed to offering them? Because an apology is really in order (they did, in fact, hurt each other), and it also helps settle down the Takers, as long as they both apologize.

<snip>

But once apologies are made, the couple should move on to the business of rebuilding their relationship, and not dwell on the mistakes of their past much as you may want to talk about the affair or about any other mistake made, remember that every conversation on those subjects withdraw love units. And a love Bank must first be overflowing with love units before you are in a position to waste any.

<snip>


These two marriages are now in a position to be restored if the spouses take the correct steps. In some ways, both couples now have the same opportunity to solve their marital problems as they did before the affairs took place. And if they had done it then, they would have avoided all of the pain that the affairs inflicted on them. They are now where most bad marriages are, burdened by Love Busters and the failure to meet important emotional needs. So if they can toss off those burdens, they will not only create the marriage they need, but also eliminate the risk of another affair.

<snip>

The steps these couples should take to restore their marriages are described in my book, Fall in Love, Stay in Love. It explains how couples can identify and overcome the Love Busters, anger, disrespect and demands. It also shows couples how to meet each other's emotional needs. But most importantly, it teaches couples how to create compatibility -- how to create an integrated lifestyle where dishonesty and secret second lives are eliminated.

The solution to most marital problems requires spouses to override their Taker's instincts. Doing what you feel like doing works great when you are in love, because the Giver calls the shots. But when you are not in love, and your Taker is in charge, your instincts will make matters much worse. The Taker wants you to get angry, be disrespectful and make demands. All of those Love Busters withdraw love units and also create defenses that make depositing new ones almost impossible.

<snip>

Both C.W. and S.C. find their spouse's Love Busters coming between them and the restoration of love. But I'm sure that both of them are dishing them out as well.

So the first step in the restoration of marriage after an affair is to lay down the weapons. Each spouse must make a concerted effort to avoid anger, disrespect or demands at all costs. Every time they are together, they must do whatever it takes to make the relationship safe for each other.

Once they can guarantee each other safety, by protecting each other from Love Busters, they are ready to learn to meet each other's emotional needs. But they will have to learn to negotiate all of these issues with the Policy of Joint Agreement in mind. They must begin by guaranteeing each other that the cost of a great marriage will not require personal sacrifice. It will only require a willingness not to do anything that would hurt each other. They must understand that everything they will be doing in the future must take each other's feelings into account, and safety will be the guiding rule from now on.

With personal safety as the condition for negotiation, and enthusiastic mutual agreement as the goal, a couple is ready to rebuild. But that environment of safety may take a while to create. It may be the very first skill that they will need to learn before they can negotiate satisfactory.

Getting beyond this first step -- setting a safe stage for negotiating -- may take some careful thought and planning, but one thing is for sure, negotiations that are not safe or pleasant will not give you a solution to your problem.

The second step for successful negotiation is to present the conflict to each other with each spouse trying to understand and respect the other's perspective. C.W. has a need for recreational companionship. That need may have been partially responsible for his affair, and he would like his wife to meet that need so he will not be tempted in the future. But his wife feels that their time should be spent together as a family, and if he wants to be with her, he must also include their daughters. They must both understand and respect each other's feelings about this issue if they expect to resolve it.

The third step is to brainstorm without criticizing each other's tentative solutions to the problem. They should write them all down and give themselves a chance to think about them without dismissing any of them right away.

The fourth step is to choose the solution that they both feel enthusiastic about following. In most conflicts, one of the solutions will jump out as the right one, especially if both Learn More!

<snip>

The purpose of these four steps is to solve marital conflicts in a way that deposits love units, and avoids withdrawing them. In other words, the goal is for you and your spouse to be in love with each other. That goal is worth more than any specific decision you will make. But, you will discover, if you keep that goal in mind, your decisions will be incredibly wise because they will have the combined wisdom of both you and your spouse. That's the secret to martial reconciliation and compatibility -- to be able to resolve conflicts together in a way that meets each other's emotional needs and accommodates each other's feelings. "


Maybe he thinks Harley's approach is all about the past, when in reality it's something quite the opposite. Would that make him feel safer?

(I highlighted some of the areas that I felt might be of help to explain TO HIM that the marriage isn't all about you....it's about him too, in case he's worried about that. I'm wondering if he feels that your boundry work is a way to manipulate him, IOW, a big LB!)

Well, yes, we did, because the A ended on dday ~ no fight at all. I never needed Plan B before...

And I think you were the one who said that this is a huge bummer for the BS, because the FWS is thinking "well, I did everything BS wanted ~ gave up the A, and am still here with the family.". Did I get that right?

And I had a VERY unclear understanding or even knowledge of Boundaries at that point, so I tried letting him have equal say in the recovery process...even though I didn't agree with it.

And now I'm seeing that I really screwed up ~ that he was and maybe in someways still is, too fogged out to even KNOW what a recovery process should look like. Not that what I want to do is necessarily the "right" or "only" way to go about recovery...but I KNOW that sweeping it under the rug is NOT the way to go.

So maybe we're calling it the wrong thing by calling it Plan B. Maybe it's just a plain old separation, if he cannot commit himself 100% to this process, AND be willing to submit to a "real" plan ~ not a "fly-by-seat-of-your-pants" plan that just stumbles along hoping to somehow recover.

Would this be a "quasi-Plan B"? If so, what do you think would be so disasterous about it?

And if you DO think it's a quasi Plan B, and WOULD be disasterous, what do YOU think my other options are? Straight to D?

I would vote for short term plan A redo now that you are better educated followed by complete plan B.

This allows you to correct the mistakes of talking recovery related relationship stuff or making demands and just letting those bank units build up.

Then plan B with requirements very clearly drawn and total darkness.

I don't know what he thinks about Harley's concepts, since he won't even look at them!!!

Or not closely, anyways. At one time I did try explaining POJA to him, and just as I suspected, he hated it. Because it meant that (unlike in the past, where he pretty much did everything he wanted), he might have to find something that we could both do together, and both be happy.

He doesn't think that's possible; he thinks I just want him to give everything up, and that's the only way I'm going to be happy. And until we actually TRY it, there is just no convincing him otherwise.

He is not interested in reading or learning about anything even remotely considered "psycho babble" or anything that might touch on emotionality.

He has great fear of it, and I do not know why. He doesn't think it's fear ~ but I can see it in his eyes, and what else could it be?

On Friday night when we went out, he finally said that he thought I wanted HIM to come up with a full-on recovery plan by March 2nd. That is not what I wanted ~ I just want a commitment from him that we can start working "a plan" for marriage building, together.

He cried and said he was so relieved. But still, a few days later ~ said that he just *can't* do "this stuff". (Read the basic concepts? for 20 min. a week? And go to MC!). I cannot understand what he is so scared of, but something is there....

what are your other alternatives? keep pushing things under the rug?? has that worked in the past? uh no!!



can you really do this, are you settling for what HE is comfortable with, or what you really want? haven't you settled for enough. its time to SOGOTP. IMHO, do you NEED plan B? is the A over, maybe you need to set your personal boundaries. I was afraid, very afraid. but it gives you something you have never had...control over the only part of this that is in your control....yourself. and out from under control of him.

small 2x4....you can't MAKE him WANT this, you can't ease him into it, you can't guide him, make it easy for him....all that is disrespectful. HE has to CHOSE it...not by default, by active choice. HE has to WANT to change, WANT to be better. Want a better M. right now it seems like he wants to go back to the old M? do you see that working?


BINGO! let me ask you, if he doesn't address his issues, will you still want him???

If you decide plan B, its not really plan B, its moving on with or without him, your endpoint is him wanting Recovery, not ending the affair, so its not really plan B. For my plan B
I went very light in the first 2 wks, and getting darker now. there are no rules, but all the advice has been, DARK< DARK< DARK> if your FWH is anything like my WS, he wont like it. mine likes me under the thumb, she has flipped with plan B, not knowing what I am doing with who or where is driving her nuts. and my being away from all the A drama.....what does mastercard say......priceless.

IMHO, make a boundary and stand behind it....I said this to my WS..." I will work fully on my M when there are two committed people involved" can you say to him "A, B, C is what I need to be in a M with you"? have you asked yourself what you need in a M ?? not what he is willing to give, but what you want out of any R??? start there.

Ish, hate to say, but I really think it's Plan B time ...

U R in the early stages of your recovery. His hasn't even started yet. Not the real one. Right now he is skimming by and you are letting him. Let go of the rope tell him to swim as if his life depended on it. You are in the boat and will help him get on board when he is able to help himself get their. You can drag him to the boat but you can't make him get on. If you drag him, he could drag you down and who would be there to help you?

Think about it and be smart. Make a recovery plan for you first. He has no goal if you keep treading water near him.

L.

Ok,noodle...that means that I have only about 2.5 weeks or so for a strong Plan A....then straight to a very dark Plan B if he says, on the 2nd, that he just *cannot* do it.

It's going to be hard to do that Plan A again, I'm very hurt and getting resentful. But I Still Love Him (get it?!?!?), and I want this to work, so...

I can do it. Cheer me on, friends...it's going to be tough.