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GDP, it wasn't so much that I was worried your lady would string you along. It was more that I suspect it would be difficult for you to emotionally move on and be available to someone else if you remained "friends" with her.
GG, you may very well be right about that. It's funny, because with my previous lady friend I didn't really feel that my "obsession" with her would stop me from getting interested in someone else. But this is different.

However, my gut feeling is that it won't take over-long to resolve our situation. At least, I think it is currently in a rather unstable state. If we haven't figured things out within a year...

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I still think that there is a fundamental problem, or inequality, Gnome.

And that is that despite you saying that "we" need to figure it out, "she" is the one who is driving the bus. You are the passenger. Sure, you can always get off the bus, but she is the one steering it.

In other words, she is the one who is deciding on whether she wants to go beyond a friendship with you, knowing that you already do.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with this arrangement inherently, even though I personally would not like it (having been in it). I suspect that as GG said, it might start wearing on you after a while, feeling somewhat trapped until she "decides".

But as long as you are in tune with your emotions, maybe it's OK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

AGG


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GDP, Maybe you could set a time limit for how long you're willing to give her to decide whether she wants more than a friendship. Then you can decide whether just friendship is ok with her or whether it's holding you back.

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I want to take some time and go back over the stuff I read while in IC and what changed my perspective entirely on dating before I respond, okay? Just want to make some sense so you might actually get something out of it.

weaver, I hope you'll follow up on this. I've always appreciated your perspective, even though I rarely read anywhere but here anymore.


FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06 What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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I can not decide if I am out of line here or not, so let me just share my experience with you.

Before I met my current DH, I did try dating a bit. I tried a couple of blind dates, and usually I was not against the person but just didn't feel like we "hit it off" much. Rather than trying to judge my prospective dates by their looks and "chemistry" I would say to myself, "Are they reasonable looking? Am I turned off by their appearance?" and usually the answer was that it each person had their positive and negative physical attributes and none of them absolutely turned me off.

Next, I tried to go at it moreso with my head than my heart--or at least with BOTH engaged! If they did not absolutely turn me off, I figured that if they had OTHER positive personality traits and qualities that I would grow to find them attractive due to being able to respect them and admire them. So I did my best to sort of stay neutral as far as "chemistry" goes. "Chemistry" can definitely come and go as the love bank is filled or emptied!

Next, I would look for things we had in common, sense of humor, intelligence...stuff that REALLY holds me interest in the long run and traits that I could really admire in the long run. I looked for traits like a practicing believer (I learned my lesson and will not look at a non-believer as a partner again)...transparent honesty...someone who's Myers-Briggs personality type was closer to or at least more complimentary to my own (I am an INTP--exH was an ESTJ!). You get the drift, right?

Yet none of the people I had blind dates with seemed very close to what I was looking for, and frankly I was a little disappointed in the options "out there." I was discouraged to find that often men just wanted to get to bed! Or that they did not find my wit and wisdom as qualities that were valuable because I'm not a supermodel and 27yo! So I was discouraged.

At that point, I began to make a list--internal at first, and then written in my journal--of the CHARACTER QUALITIES I wanted in a life partner, because let's face it folks, I'm aging. I staring down the barrel of menopause and middle age and retirement!! Sooooo...it seemed to me that looks and "chemistry" might fade somewhat whereas the character of the person would go on, maybe even after a stroke or medical emergency.

After I had that straight in my head, then I met my Dear Hubby. Yes, I did in fact know relatively quickly that he had many/most of the character qualities that I desired. Also, my very first physical impression of him was exactly this, "Hmmm...he's kind of cute!" Nope, he did not bowl me over with a hot physique and gobs of manly hunkiness...at first. But as I got to know him more, and as I found his personality and character more and more and more attractive, I found HIM more and more and more attractive too. And that continues to this day! In fact, I would say that I find chemistry has increased 1000% the more I know of him....he is SMOKING! Furthermore, I doubt that "chemistry" would be lessened if he were to have a spinal cord injury or a stroke...or even just get older and lose a little limberness...because it is not his physical that makes him so attractive but his MIND and his SPIRIT.

Soooooo...GDP, nothing personal my friend, but I've seen you. You are a skinny little waif of a man, with cute hair and a fine face. There is nothing about you physically that isn't just fine the way it is--especially to produce "chemistry." Once I found my DH, I did not ever ONCE want to slow things down and JBF...not once. Now, on the occasion I did wonder if we were moving too fast or that sort of doubt, but I never ONCE wanted to be anything other than the love of his life and he mine.

You are a smart man GDP--how do you interpret what I am saying to you?

Your true and faithful friend,


CJ

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But as long as you are in tune with your emotions, maybe it's OK .


Yes, I think this is it. It is very hard to get off of the train by will alone, once you have already stepped on. It seems like once we have let our heart fall for someone and the brain chemicals have had a chance to do there stuff on us...we have no choice but to ride it out. At least until as Orchid says our heart becomes insync with our head, and we can make a decision from a place of not too much pain to get off at the next stop.

That is why everyone tells us to choose wisely before we get on the train in the first place. Hard to do.

I am a cynic when it comes to romantic love, because I believe there is a split second where we consciously choose to fall in love, whether we are aware of it or not. I remember that split second on the last relationship I was in... this one too.

CJ, I loved what you wrote because that is almost the way it happened when I met my fiance'.

Letstry, I will follow up. Should we start a new thread?

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I still think that there is a fundamental problem, or inequality, Gnome.

And that is that despite you saying that "we" need to figure it out, "she" is the one who is driving the bus. You are the passenger. Sure, you can always get off the bus, but she is the one steering it.

In other words, she is the one who is deciding on whether she wants to go beyond a friendship with you, knowing that you already do.

I suppose there is nothing wrong with this arrangement inherently, even though I personally would not like it (having been in it). I suspect that as GG said, it might start wearing on you after a while, feeling somewhat trapped until she "decides".

But as long as you are in tune with your emotions, maybe it's OK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.
Yes, there's an inequality, and I can't claim to like the current arrangement myself. But I take full ownership of my decisions. As long as I'm only dealing with frustration, I figure I'm OK. If I feel that the situation begins to erode my self-respect, then I will have to take steps...

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GDP, Maybe you could set a time limit for how long you're willing to give her to decide whether she wants more than a friendship. Then you can decide whether just friendship is ok with her or whether it's holding you back.
I think it's too early to set a time limit. We're still trying to figure out what it means to be friends, and before we can do that we're sort of waiting for the awkwardness to dissipate a bit. The problem is, I don't know if the awkwardness will dissipate of its own accord. I believe that over the next few months I'm going to have to define some of my own parameters for our relationship, for my own sake; and if we can't a middle ground which is acceptable to both of us, I don't know that our friendship is going to survive.

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I can not decide if I am out of line here or not, so let me just share my experience with you.
CJ, I don't know why you would feel that anything you said here might be out of line. I always appreciate your insights, even if I only usually agree with them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

In this case, though, you asked how I interpret what you are saying. And...I really don't know how to interpret it. On the one hand, everything you say suggests that chemistry should be possible in my situation - all the more so since "on paper" I have all the character qualities and other tangibles which should make me an attractive catch (including physical qualities which I know are by no means off-putting). However, in reality the fact remains that something appears to be missing!

CJ, you said that you never wanted to slow things down with your now-husband. I could interpret that comment as an indication that I shouldn't have much hope for my situation. I don't interpret it that way, though, since for me hope is a non-issue.

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GDP--

If I recall, your current lady-friend said that she didn't think you were her "type" at first. By this, I assume she meant because you're somewhat of a geek and because of "chemistry." Well, you two did a little shop class and discovered that "chemistry" could be there, but then she suddenly said LJBF and said that it had something to do with "chemistry" and she wanted to wait and see if you could be more than friends.

I will be blunt (I know--it's easier for your INTP's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

What I'm saying is that you do, in fact, have everything possible for "chemistry" to be present. You also have MANY stunningly good character qualities which make you an attractive catch. But if the decision of "what form the relationship is going to take" is based on "chemistry" then you are in trouble, because chemistry increases and attractiveness increases when EN's are met.

How can I say this?

When I met my new hubby, he did not physically blow my socks off. He is a normal looking guy just like you. He is not a bronzed god, but then again, he is not missing any teeth! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> I was attracted to him enough to not be turned off.

THEN I got to know his character and his qualities. That made the normal looking guy look a lot cuter! And his eyes sort of had that soft look in them. THEN it wsa confirmed that his qualities really were part of who he is, and trust was built...and he got even better looking. CHEMISTRY WAS GROWING. At no point did I say, "With this man, I would like to JBF" or "I think we better back off because in the beginning he was not as hot as some other guys could be." I saw him and more and MORE and MORE attractive the more I got to know of him.

If I had based our R on "chemistry" we might have never gotten to know each other more and more, we might not have fallen in love, and we might not be confirming our love by CHOOSING to be loving every day.

I don't know if I'm out of line to say this, but here ya go: You've got the goods, GDP. We all have some preferences to what we are attracted to, but I'm telling ya...you've got the goods in EVERY way. And frankly if she can't see that, I doubt if she is the woman for you. When a woman IS the woman for you, she will SEE YOU and see your every physical flaw and quality and characteristic, and realize that physical fades...physical has limits...but the character lasts! When a woman IS the woman for you, she will come after you non-stop just as steadily as I went after my DH and he went after me.

Your faithful friend,


CJ

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Hmm. Thanks, CJ. I appreciate your perspective and your frankness. I've read your post several times and thought about it, and I must confess that I still don't understand (a) how you could be considered out of line here, and (b) how to apply your insights to my situation.

I think your quick recap of my situation is pretty accurate. I also believe that the chemistry between 'T' and me was growing, in much the way you described, up to the point where she called a halt. I believe that she can and did see my value, including my value to her, and she's plenty smart enough to recognize that physical characteristics are not static.

Your assertion that "when a woman IS the woman for you, she will come after you non-stop" is not entirely convincing to me. I know a number of happily married couples - my own parents among them - whose courtship involved a period of stepping back or breaking up.

My understanding is that 'T' pulled back because she was concerned that chemistry was not developing as quickly as she expected or in the way that she "needed." While she seemed both unsure that her expectations were realistic and unclear on what exactly was missing, her anxiety over this lack and her attempts to "force" her feelings to match her desires made it necessary for her to recast our relationship. Otherwise she risked triggering an aversion reaction - a dread of being with me due to the anxiety it produced in her. Objectively speaking, this may very well say more about her than about me or about our potential as a couple. Regardless, it was the only sensible thing to do under the circumstances.

Unfortunately, instead of merely stepping back and "letting go" enough to see what might develop naturally, it appears to me that the approach she is taking may be the same as she has taken in the past with her ex-boyfriends, where she deliberately converted her romantic relationships into friendships. This may be happening automatically rather than consciously - which would hardly be surprising, since for her this is a familiar approach with a proven track record of detoxifying her feelings. However, it also seems to me that it may be an effective way of sabotaging any future potential for anything beyond friendship.

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Your assertion that "when a woman IS the woman for you, she will come after you non-stop" is not entirely convincing to me. I know a number of happily married couples - my own parents among them - whose courtship involved a period of stepping back or breaking up.

GDP, I too am aware of some relationships that started with periods of "together" and "apart", and ended up well. But, I think they rarely move "apart" due to lack of "chemistry", which is something that is very basic and fundamental. More typical reasons include the timing not being right, some other event coming up to cause problems, someone feeling confused for whatever reason, etc. But not for something that is fundamental like attraction.

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Unfortunately, instead of merely stepping back and "letting go" enough to see what might develop naturally, it appears to me that the approach she is taking may be the same as she has taken in the past with her ex-boyfriends, where she deliberately converted her romantic relationships into friendships.

So is that what she said? You are now just like one of the ex's, "just friends"? I guess if so, the obvious question would be "why would you want to linger in that group of 'friends', hoping to get suddenly elevated back to something more?"

I am completely with FW here; you put your best foot forward in this relationship - she tried it, and didn't like it. I'd say she is not the gal for you - the gal for you will not start questioning if she is attracted to you after already starting something up.

AGG


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It seems to me she is putting too much value on a particular feeling generated by chemistry & reverting to a way familiar to her though knowing intellectually it's not served her well in the past.


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You may be right, AGG - and for that matter nams may be right too. In the end, 'T' made a judgment call, as was her prerogative, and as we all have to do at many points in our lives. At the end of the road it is unlikely that anyone will be able to say whether a different choice on her part would have had a "better" outcome for her.

From where I stand, the "why" of it doesn't really seem to make any practical difference. She must make her choices, and I must make mine. She is very clear about the fact that we are no longer "dating" and I am not aware of any circumstance which would cause her to reconsider her position. As far as I can tell, I see no indication that she has any intention of ever doing so, and I would be a fool to hope for it.

Of course, I must admit that I am just that type of fool; but by this time hope of any sort is pretty meaningless for me. If I feel hope, it is pretty well overshadowed by other feelings. But whether it is there or not, I do not factor it into my decisions.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of analyzing everything. It doesn't seem to me that I am capable of learning anything useful about relationships from my own experiences.

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Frankly, I'm getting tired of analyzing everything. It doesn't seem to me that I am capable of learning anything useful about relationships from my own experiences.
AMEN!

Unfortunately, we don't have much else to go on other than the advice of others, and that often seems to offer an infinite variety of choices.


FBS, D'day 12/00 * NC since 5/02 * divorce final 5/06 * property settlement 9/06 What you can do or think you can do, begin it. For boldness has Magic, Power, and Genius in it. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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