My BH (LostBoy68)is a frequent visitor to this site, and suggested I post here to get some much needed advice. This is difficult, because I know he will be reading this, and I don’t want to hurt him more than I already have. We have talked about all of this before, however, and he knows how I have been feeling.

Both my BH and I tend to write long histories including large amounts of background information, so I pared down all the pertinent information regarding my current issue(s), and for those brave souls that need more information, I have included that later in the post.

I had a PA during the summer of 2005, and a possible EA last fall. My BH found out about both at the end of Nov-beginning of Dec.

We are now 3 months into recovery, after I decided to stay and work on the M. H promised to make changes in his old behaviors, anger management, sexual demands, and to start listening to, and actually hearing, me. He bent over backwards to meet all of my EN’s, and I started to try to meet his. We went to an M workshop within a month that left us feeling like we had turned over a new leaf, and were in a whole new relationship. During the workshop I said that I wanted to re-commit to the M, and we are planning to renew our vows this summer.

H has really done an amazing job of turning things around, and has become a much better, caring, loving, attentive husband. He has not pressured me at all, and has encouraged me to take up new interests, and look for something that will bring meaning to my life and give me a sense of purpose.

I have felt very loving and grateful to him for all that he has done for our family, for me, for our kids, and I respect him as a great person. The problem is that I am not sexually attracted to him. We have good sex, and he is willing to do whatever it takes to please me, but I just still don’t have those butterflies, fireworks, whatever. It seems to me that it is unrealistic to expect that all of the time, but it also seems unfair to him that he always has and still does feel that way for me. He has asked me what he can do to make himself more attractive to me (he smokes 2 packs a day, drinks close to a six-pack every night which started when I left him in Nov.), and I have made suggestions, but I don’t want to hurt his feelings, and I don’t want him to knock himself out and for me to possibly still feel the same way even after these changes. I am perfectly content at this point, and fully plan to stick with the M. I have no illusions, and don’t plan on, any other A’s, but I just feel a tremendous amount of guilt that I can’t give him what he needs. I have told him that I am perfectly willing to meet his needs sexually, but he wants me to be “into it”, and I feel like I would have to fake it, and that would be a lie.

We are only 3 months into the recovery process, and I know that it takes a long time, but I am uncomfortable that he is still in the “honeymoon phase”, and I have already passed out of it. We actually never had a real honeymoon. Can a relationship work that is just based on companionship and friendship, when he feels more for me than I do for him? Or, can feelings be built now that I never had before? Are we both just rushing this, and not giving it enough time to come to full bloom? Sometimes I get frustrated because I feel like he wants everything to happen instantaneously, and that I just need to be more open to letting those feelings arise. I also still feel like he becomes dependent on sex to solidify our feelings for each other, and it becomes the old chicken-and-egg situation in the sense that he is hoping that if we just have sex more often, we will have greater feelings of intimacy toward each other.

I think we both are hopeless romantics, and are looking for the classic movie we-were-meant-to-be-together-we-are-soulmates life together. We both get so sad when we watch those movies, because we both want that so badly. And I want that to be with my husband. At the marriage workshop that we went to, one of the points that the facilitators made is that we bring certain people into our lives for a reason, that they offer something that we are lacking, and that is why very often opposites attract. But I don’t feel anything when I look at him, his smell doesn’t attract me… I just feel comfortable. I also think that our being around each other 24 hours a day makes it all passé and routine.

I guess my issue is that MB seems to be all about: having your EN’s met = love, and therefore you can be in love with anyone that can do that for you. But where does chemistry come in to the equation?




For any brave souls that need additional background history into our marital history, I have detailed that below, and you could also see my H’s (LostBoy68) thread.


When I first met my future H, there weren’t any sparks for me. I was attracted to him, but it wasn’t head over heels, and I actually turned down his initial advances – I was dating someone else at the time. He said that he knew that he wanted to marry me the minute he saw me, and was persistent. For two years or so, H and I would bump into one another at parties or bars, and I would politely blow him off. Then one night after I was fired from my job, I ran in to future H at a party, and feeling somewhat reckless after having had a few, I gave him my number and told him to call me.

On our first date, we discovered that our birthdays were a day apart (same year). Being somewhat superstitious, I took this as a sign. We had a good time together, but still not anything spectacular for me. We were comfortable together. We continued dating and were having sex. Within a few months he had more or less moved in to my apartment with me and my son, who was 4 ½ at the time. He was good with my son, but not affectionate. However, I liked having a “strong male influence” for him there.

Once we were living together, friends started asking me if I thought he was “the One”. My reply was that basically he had grown on me, and although I wasn’t feeling head over heels for him, I thought he was a good, caring person. My feelings were basically that I had been “screwed” by the guys that I had had a strong attraction for, and that I should probably not trust my instincts, since they tended to lead me to the wrong men. Before I had met my future H, I had spent a lot of time thinking about the kind of man I wanted, or thought I would be attracted to (caring, loving, a sense of humor, fun-loving, athletic, musical, and above all willing to be a father figure to my son, since his bio father wasn’t really involved), and this man fit all of those criteria, so I told myself that I should stick with this relationship, bc it was the type of relationship I should WANT to be in. Besides, once he had moved in, I felt like it was the right thing to do, as far as my son was concerned, to stick with the relationship. I did not want to have an endless parade of men coming through his life, and had already ended a 3-yr relationship with another man to whom my son had become very attached.

We were engaged within a year, and I went about planning my “dream” wedding. My future H did not want to have anything to do with the planning. This really hurt me, and we ended up having a huge fight just days before the wedding that nearly ended the whole thing. We did end up going through with it, however, and the next 12 years were pretty much more of the same. He didn’t want to have anything to do with any of the things that were important to me (gardening, trips to the zoo, etc), and when I got involved in certain things he made me feel like I was wasting time, doing things that were “stupid”, wasting money – nothing I ever did was good or right.

Also shortly after we got engaged, we started having issues over sex. As with any man, he wanted it more than he was getting, so basically this snow-balled into the whole “well, she isn’t meeting my needs, so why should I bend over backwards to do the things that she wants to do” thing, and vice versa. The sex issue ballooned into emotional/sexual passive/aggressive abuse that resulted in me lying on my back crying while he had his way just to get it over with so we could move past it.

I ended up clinically depressed for the last 3-4 years and have been on AD’s, and was in the hospital as a result for a couple of nights. His reaction was always that I just wasn’t trying hard enough to love him and/or feel sexual towards him, and that I just had to get myself into a “happy place”. Obviously, this didn’t work.

Finally, a year and a half ago I went out of state to be with a family member who was ill. I was away from home for about a week, and it was the first time I had been away by myself (without kids or H) for as long as I could remember. It was really liberating. I made friends at the family member’s place of business – I hadn’t made any new friends in years, and had really had no social life to speak of, other than a night out with high school girlfriends once or twice a year for 8 to 10 years. I went out at night, I felt young and attractive, I had fun and joked and laughed. I hadn’t felt like that in a long, LONG time.

I also met someone and had a PA that lasted about a month. It was the first time that I had felt valued as an individual, for who I am, and not for who my H wanted me to be, but wasn’t. When I was came back at home, I felt re-energized. I cared about what I looked like, and started working out. I felt like I could get out of the house and start being involved in life again. But my H didn’t like me working out bc of how busy we were, and he was jealous that he didn’t “have the time” to work out himself, so I stopped, and went back to spending all of my time either working or caring for the kids. He continued to press me for sex, and I continued to resist, and the cycle continued.

This past fall, my (now OUR, as he was adopted by H) son went off to his freshman year of college. I had hoped that this would be a new chapter in our lives, as the relationship between DS and H had always been rocky and had caused a lot of friction in the family. However, it was a new set of stresses because of the new expense of paying college tuition, and H placed a lot of demands on DS while he was at school. I resented H a lot for making me feel relieved that DS was leaving the house in order to restore harmony. H resented me for doing, in his thinking, too much for a grown child who was supposed to now be taking care of himself. H resented DS for getting more attention from me than H did. We were reaching a breaking point.

Finally, after a re-entry into our lives by DS’s bio-father (initiated by me, but that’s a whole other story), H had a total meltdown resulting in major binge-drinking, irrational demands, and my deciding that I couldn’t live with this situation any longer. I stayed at a family member’s house for 10 days (out of state) by myself, while H took and cared for the kids (we now have 3: the other 2 are now in elem. school), so I could try to figure out what I was going to do. I had some contact with DS’s bio-F during this period, which H contends was an EA. To some extent, I guess it was, but there was no physical contact whatsoever, and I discovered that I no longer had any feelings towards him, other than pity, as he was going through a difficult time in his life. I think we were just both leaning on each other for support in a time of need.

I returned home after that time to see the kids, and was planning to move out. H says that he had planned to ask me to leave when I returned home, but that once I was there he couldn’t let me leave (a habit of his – he had literally barred me from leaving several times in the past, when I had just needed to get out of the house and get some air). We spent the better part of a month with me saying I had to get out for my own emotional/mental health, and him begging me to stay and give him another chance. I felt that I couldn’t stay just because he was asking me to, and couldn’t understand why he didn’t want me to be making the decision to stay of my own volition. I didn’t want to feel like I was staying just because he had “worn me down”.

During this time H had found MB and was spending a lot of time lurking on these boards. He finally decided to start working on his Plan A/Plan B and coming to terms with letting me make my own decision. When he eventually gave me “permission” to leave, I finally felt free to choose, and I decided to stay and give our M another shot.

I guess the whole premise is that your EN's being met creates the chemistry.

Are you sure you have accurately identified your EN's?

Ok, so you are in a M that did not start with 'sparks'. Most don't.

What have you learned about your love for him and his love for you over these years that is important to both of you?

En's s/b not just yours but the ENs' of your spouses' as well. Do you know his?

Seems like you both need to balance your time together and apart. At the same time you both need to keep looking out for the needs of the other.

JMHO,
L.

Was there any emotional attachment in your affairs? What is a sort of EA?

Are you getting 15hrs a week of undivided attention?

Wow. Thanks for replying so quickly. I'll start at the top...

bigkahuna: My H had us fill out the EN questionnaire at the beginning of all of this. Not surprisingly, SF was in his top 2, I'm not even sure it made my list. Haven't looked at my responses recently, but I think my top three were Recreational Companionship, Family Commitment & Admiration (not necessarily in that order). I spent a lot of time feeling both useleless & helpless. He literally wore the pants in the family for a long time, and made most of the decisions "in the heat of the moment", where I didn't end up having any say, esp. where our older son was concerned. He has gone a LONG way toward rectifying all of that, and, as I said, has really become a different person recently.

Orchid: I deeply value my H's love for me, and for our children. He is a steadfast, truly trust-worthy, caring person. I do truly feel blessed to have someone who cares for me that deeply. I found myself wondering the other night, which is the greater curse (or blessing, depending on how you look at it) - being completely and unconditionally loved, and not being able to return it; or being the one offering that love and not getting it back? As I said to BK above, we did go through the EN questionnaire, and I feel like (and I think H would agree for the most part) that I have been trying to stay aware of, and meet, his EN's. What I think he is lacking at this point are the spontaneous hugs and kisses as he passes me in the hall, etc. that just don't feel natural to me at this point, and I don't want it to be contrived, or fake. I definitely agree that there needs to be some balance of time together/apart. I'm hoping that that will go some way toward turning things around for me, but what if it doesn't?...

Back to BK: There was no emotional attachment in the PA - strictly a fling. The "sort of" EA came from the fact that the person involved was the bio father of my son, and although there had been NC with him for the last 13 years, we were on friendly terms once we started talking again (about DS). He was 1 of only a handful of people I knew in the area when I was away from H for those 10 days, and the only person I KNEW I would not have to do a whole lot of explaining to about why I was there. I contemplated the idea of "hooking up" with him at the time - mostly out of shear anger towards my H - but realized that I really was not attracted to him whatsoever. My H labeled it an EA, because the initial contact with him (about DS) was done without H's knowledge (he was against the idea when I brought it up), and went on for several months before he found out.

I feel like I'm getting a gazillion hours a week. It's almost too much, but the problem is that we really don't DO much together, it's mostly just hanging out, watching tv, etc. Nothing "special".

Thanks again! Keep the feedback coming!

Can I suggest both of you re-do the EN's questionaire and talk to each other about the results?

Read HNHN together to fully examine EN's

Then have a PLAN to meet each other's needs in every area.

Does not matter if it is contrived or fake - feelings do follow action. Actions become a habit.

You can be in love and have those feelings but you have to work at it.

*

Believer: I understand what you are saying. But what I was trying to say, and didn't say very well bc my orig. post was cut and spliced several times, was that my being able to go out, and make friends, and walk in to a place and feel that I was someone worth talking to, and had something to say that people found interesting, was what made me feel valued. The man I "jumped into the sack with" was a fling, pure and simple, and I recognized it as such, with no delusions of romance or a lasting relationship.

The truth of the matter is that my H did NOT make me feel valued for a very, very long time, and it wasn't until he was faced with the prospect of my leaving that he finally took a look in the mirror, and was willing to acknowledge and feel remorse for the emotional abuse he had laid on me for a dozen years. He and I are both sorry that it took that, and not my depression, my trying to tell him for years how demoralized and hopeless that I felt over and over again, that got him to change.

BK: we actually just got done printing out the EN questionnaire to fill out again, as a matter of fact. I also took HNHN tonight when I took our DD to dance class, but haven't read it yet. Honestly, when H first brought it home, my first reaction was "Oh God, not again about my needing to fulfill your sexual needs more, and THEN you can make me happy". So I've had a bit of a mental block against it, but I'm working up to it.

I guess it just goes back to my original feelings, and I KNOW, b4 you all start responding, that this is probably unrealistic fantasy, that shouldn't all this come a little more naturally? It just seems so formulaic to me, that if we just follow the steps, everything will work out. I really, REALLY, want this to work, and I'm willing to do what it takes. I just wish... Oh well, you know.

You sound numb. Need to get your nerve back. If this was physical, something like a B12 vitamin shot, ya know?!!?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You should get yourself checked out by the doctor and see if there isn't something physical tied to all this lack of emotion.

L.

I agree. It could be hormonal. Especially given that the attraction was not there in the first place.

HNHN is about BOTH your needs being met. It's a good book and it will help you.

I know HNHN is about both. He just brought it home at a really bad time, and the first thing I saw was HIS Needs. It was kind of a turn off, but I'm eyeing it.

I also know what you mean about the physical/hormonal side of it. I've had energy issues for years, and have had my blood checked numerous times. It always comes back normal, and then I end up feeling like a hypochondriac. I was hoping the AD's would help. We're always hoping for the magic pill, right?

We're going to bed now. Thanks for all of your feedback tonight. I'll check back in the morning.

HHW,

Please read your post again and tell me if you notice what stands out to you.

L.

hrdhddwoman,

Wow, I read your post and have so many ideas for you and your H. But, it is late and I need to pack it in and get some sleep. So I am going to just offer some observations.

First, did you notice that you came into this marriage with a young son? Do you suppose that put some strain on the relationship?

Second, you two have two other children, and you have been depressed and taking AD's. Nothing wrong with AD's they are great but they depress the sex drive (libido). Do you suppose that may have had some impact?

Third, you clearly have placed your son above your H and also given that your son was there first, do you suppose you might have engendered a competition between them for your love?

Fourth, you leave ALL of your troubles behind and go out of state, and feeling the euphoria of no troubles start acting like you are single and have an affair. Do you wonder why that affair and the sex associated with it might feel much different than at home? Duh!

Fifth, you bring bio-dad back into the family dynamic which clearly was viewed as a threat by your H, do you think that has had any impact on the issues and your feelings for H?

Sixth, you still have two children at home and the normal responsibility of caring for them, do you think that might make your interactions with your H less romantic?

Seventh, your H has had control issues, maybe he always had them, but perhaps enhanced by feeling in competition with others for your time an attention, and maybe worrying that since you did not love him you might leave. Most people in that situation either withdraw or grab hold tight. Do you think that was part of the issues you have?

I can go on. But, one thing you need to understand men more easily focus on their W's during child rearing than women focus on their H's. The embalance you feel is likely due in part to the fact that you have never known him when you did not have a child to take care of. Hence you have never really given him a chance to be your 'dream' because you needed him to be a 'father' to your child and take responsibility.

My guess is that you have not really stepped back and valued him in any other light than as a supporter of your son, and your kids. Plus, given his obvious flaws he was NOT your knight in shining armour.

My final thought is that the "feelings" are not as important as the act of love. I mean the physical act of course, but also the acts one does to support and protect a spouse and family.

I know this is going to sound odd, but I think you have been blessed in many ways and you don't really see it. The fact that he has an intense love of you, that he has been willing to address his faults, that he has hung in there during tough times (for you as well as him), suggests that you have the makings of a real and deep marriage and relationship.

When you look at the points I have made, I would guess fatigue (from always taking care of kids), pressure from rearing them and keeping the house afloat, your depression, his reactions, are all working to zap from you the desire you seek, the chemistry you want.

My guess is that as you grow older together, and as he continues to work on himself, you will begin to see that he is someone worthy of your love and desire. I just hope it does not come too late in your life.

Much more to say, but please think about this some more and talk with your H.

God Bless,

JL

*

EXACTLY! Listen, make yourself happy. That's what we are here for. Do ANYTHING that gives you those feelings of being alive. Nevermind if you have to sacrafice your morality, values, husband, marriage, children's future....That's their problem. Take care of YOU. YOU deserve it, YOU are entitled to it. YOU shouldn't have to wait, work, try....It should just come to YOU on a silver platter. YOU can't possibly be happy in a monogamous, stable R with children to care for, train, teach, love...YOU need to find something else. YOU

Well YOU get the point.......

hopeandpray,

Don't hold back. How do you really feel? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Mark

HnP - I think that your post is entirly inappropriate. My W is a great person and she has shown a lot of courage posting to this board to help us recover our M, where so many of the viewers/posters are BS's. HDW and I have been through our issues; her A's and my prior emotional abuse and controlling behaviors. We are BOTH wracked with guilt over our prior choices to betray each other...AND we have both ACCEPTED our responsibilities for those choices.

I don't think my W adequately expressed her guilt and remorse that she feels in her post above, but I assure you it is real and painful to her, and her actions have backed up those feelings that I have witneessed. Let me state unequivocally...I HAVE FORGIVEN MY W, and we are rebuilding our M.

Hrdhddwoman posted here on MY REQUEST, for help in rebuilding...not to get blasted for her prior choices. Nobody has flamed me for the emotional abuse that I put her through...but I accept full responsibility and she has forgiven me.

Hrdhddwoman has put herself out here on MB to help us achieve our goal of a great M, and her questions are valid. She is committed to our M, and I would appreciate ANY constructive advice pertaining to her issues. But she does NOT need to be blasted for the past.

JL - You are very observant, and I think that many of your observations were right on the mark...particularly about how I have always subconsiously felt in competition for my W's love with DadoptS, AND with my prior controlling tendencies being excaserbated by my W not feeling the same level of feelings for me as I do for her.

Thank you for being so astute.

LoBoy

Hello! Welcome to both of you, as I have never spoken to Lostboy68 before.

I just want to echo that JL is a gem among men and very, VERY wise. His post brought a lump to my throat... it feels so truthful and insightful to me, and this is not even my story.

Hrdhddwoman, I know it's tough living in your skin right now and you probably feel a little beaten up after reading here. I know how you feel, truly... and I know how your H feels, too, because I've been on both sides (FBW and FWW).

Take this situation and make it into an opportunity to get things right in your life - beginning NOW. This is your time to learn, grow and SHINE as a wife.

I don't know how old you are, but for me (nearly 50) I've found that regrets SUCK and that true love... deep, abiding love... doesn't happen as often as we think... we are so dumb sometimes, thinking there's something better around the corner. What "they" say about the grass NOT being greener... is so true! Look for the things you already love about your H and LOVE THEM MORE. See the good in this man! He obviously sees the good in you... just read his last response!

Whether you have "sparks" for your H now or not, realize that he is a human being who has loved you deeply, and loved and adopted your son... which makes him a very special guy in my book! (I was adopted by my mother's second H, who I adore completely. Her first H, my birth father, died when I was an infant).

Best wishes to you both...

LB,

I do hope my comments are of value to your W. It seems to me there has been a lot on each of your plates for a long time.

To followup on NB's comment about the grass growing. The reality is that the grass is always greener where you water it. I hope your W comes to realize this.

I know many couples in their 60's, 70's 80's, and listening to them talk one comes to realize, that it is the shared journey that really really matters in the end. LB you and your W are sharing a journey and in the end, you two can look back and marvel at the high mountains you climbed, the pretty meadows you have seen, and the accomplishments you two have acheived.

I wish you both the best.

God Bless,

JL