Great posts by all! JL said it very succinctly...in the end, this was a tragedy done to innocent people by a nut job. I think what many here are focusing now on, as the memorial services end and the task of figuring out what to do is taken on, is to find out a better way of dealing with these things. Until Jesus Himself returns, evil will always be with us. There will be more school shootings...more 9/11s...more Oklahoma Citys. There is evil in the world folks.

I loved the post by BJS here and thought I would respond. Because these really are the questions we need to be asking. Sure, maybe the university could have notified people quicker. Maybe they could have some sort of communication system installed, or have practice drills on campus (like fire drills). I am all for using technology to help prevent these things or lessen their blow.

But it reminds me after the 1st Gulf War, when everyone said that it was the end of needing standing armies. That air power was enough. But in reality, as we have seen in Afghanistan and Iraq, war is still fought by the infantry soldier...up close and personal.

And personal safety will never be fully accomplished by cameras, alarm systems, police officers, etc. It will be accomplished by training the individual to protect themselves and giving them the tools to do so. With that, let me get to BJS here...


As do I Kiwi. Even though the attention has been diverted...JL was right above. All of us agree about the sadness and our hearts go out to those families. There is no need for us to post or discuss that fact...because all of us are in agreement. But thank you for starting this because this is a discussion that needs to happen in our society. What is safety...and how do we get it? And at what cost?


Exactly! Our kids are ill prepared for the most part...for the real world when they leave home. We want our kids to be good kids, so we decide that we try to protect them from even seeing or knowing about bad stuff. And then they walk into the reality of the real world, and have no clue how to handle it. My wife the other day sat my daughter down and read a story in the news paper about a girl who was on the Internet and this guy she was blogging (she thought he was a girl), found out where she lived and came, took her away and raped her continuously for days. He would have killed her if she hadnt of escaped...the police are sure of that.

Now, many parents would say "I cant believe you read that to her. That you exposed that to her. That us inappropriate. You will scare her to death."

My answer to that? GOOD!! She should be scared. She should be so scared that she will listen when we tell her not to talk to strangers, not to give out personal info on the Internet, etc. She should understand the reality.

My kids are scheduled here at the end of the school year to visit Walter Reed Army Hospital. We made a decision to go there and have the kids visit for two reasons. First for them (and us) to thank my fellow soldiers for what they have done and the sacrifice they have made. And second, for my kids to see firsthand what the costs of war are. They arent a video game...or a movie. There are real lives at stake. Real pain. Real suffering. And I WANT them to see it. I want them to fully comprehend what it all means!


Great questions. First off, there are self defense services out there that will teach you hand-to-hand and even weapons training and tactics. Your kids CAN get the training to protect themselves! Second, your kids dont have to live in fear. Mine dont. First off, they have a relationship with Jesus and they know that nothing will happen to them today that Jesus didnt allow. So, if it is their time to go...they will go. They also are confident with the training I have given them (and continue to give) that in a situation, they will have the tools to survive. And yes, BJS. You are right. It is about repetition. That is how soldiers, who are scared to death...still get out of foxholes and fight. It is because their bodies are on auto-pilot...reacting to the training they have received in the past.


Great post! Funny thing is...my wife thought the way many do early on in our marriage. When my oldest was 11...he would go to the bus stop and this kid that was younger than him would throw rocks at him and my daughter. My son would stand in the way and protect his sister...but would not fight back for fear of getting in trouble at school. My wife let the school know and the bus driver know...and no one did anything about it. Finally, one day...I went to see his parents. And they had nothing to say except "boys will be boys." So, I told them "fine. Then understand that my son is now being given permission by me to respond to the next time your son does something like this." My wife was angry at me for doing that...because she thought I was teaching our son to be violent.

Well, two days later, it happened again. My son didnt flinch this time. He hauled off and punched this kid square in the face...knocking him down...and knocking him out. The police were called, so was the school. We had meetings. And at the end of the day, because we had done everythign we could have and no one stopped it...the school and police authorities determined that my son had acted correctly.

Now, anyone want to venture how many more times that kid threw rocks at my son or his sister??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> And my wife came around and finally said "You know, Mortarman...you were right."

We must teach our children how and when to respond. Whether that be to fight back, use a weapon, escape, etc.

This is all a good discussion. And I hope we all learn something from this tragedy...something real. Something that will make a difference next time.

My heart warmed when I heard more details about the professor/Holocaust survivor who held the doors so his s2dents could escape out the windows, before being fatally shot.

He did what he could with what he knew and what he had.

-ol' 2long

A big Army Hooah to that guy! Heros dont always wear a uniform!

I think there is a new awareness running through the posts this morning. Trying to put it simply, it is that this is not a safe world and won't be for a long, long time—if ever. I could argue it never has been.

For hundreds of years, it was the pioneer having to take precautions every time one of the family walked out from the doorway of their log cabin or dirt dugout to make sure marauding Indians weren’t about…okay, and Indians checking to see if other Indians or whites were about to attack. Danger still exists today and Virginia Tech massacre brings that reality into clear focus. If one assumes the threat does not exist, that very rejection sets one up to be a victim. Regretfully, the illusion of safety is just that.

Whether it's gang violence in Los Angeles or muslim terrorists ready to kill thousands in New York (or anywhere else in this country), the possibility of a violent act being committed against someone is always there. It’s one of the tradeoffs we accept in an open society. If you think you’re safe in the interior of the country, consider the crack addict ready to kill to get his next fix or the petty criminal who wants your TV set to sell so he won’t have to work for a living. All of them are sociopathic to one degree or another, and none of them care one whit about you or your loved ones.

It behooves us to take a moment for discussion after such things as Virginia Tech happen, simply because it’s the only way we can take anything of value from such terrible events. If our discussion convinces just one individual to fight instead of submitting and allowing himself to be lined up for execution, then it has been worth it. If one such hostage fights, I have enough faith in my fellow man to believe others will follow their lead.

Sometimes such a leader doesn’t survive, as in the case of the professor who held the killer back to give his students time to flee. It is heartrending he didn’t live through the event…but at the same time, there are qualities of dying. The holocaust survivor died an honorable death, and I fervently feel a good death is preferable to a meaningless one. The professor’s last act was to save others, thus giving meaning to his life even if none existed before…and I don’t assume none did. By contrast, a drunk stumbling from a bar and wrapping his or her car around a telephone pole, doesn’t die well at all.

I think it’s appropriate to mark well the life experiences of that holocaust survivor who gave his life up that the ones in his care might live. That professor knew first hand what it means for men and women, and whole societies, to give in to the most expedient solution…to not resist evil however and whenever one can.

I will keep this holocaust survivor and the heroes on Flight 93 alive in my mind, and honor them all the while. In differing circumstances (which actually have no difference in the final analysis), these ordinary people gave the “last full measure of devotion” so others would live and I’m not sure a man or woman can aspire to any greater end.

anyone here listen to Dennis Prager on the radio? He's saying the same thing -- nut job, evil, etc. And notice how no one is calling him a "murderer." No, he's a "shooter."

Good stuff, LH!

Here is a quote I got off the web today:


Ban them! Ban them! Ban them!!

Sheesh!

Let's try illustrating the absurd by being absurd!! Here are quotes of the arguments in the last few days...but instead of using the tool used in this massacre (guns) I am going to use the tools used in the bigger ones!


Or maybe we should ban immigration:

KiwiJ,

I thought I would respond to you specifically and others as well. You said I think you are absolutely right about the university. Of all of the people ill-prepared to respond to this it is university staff. Yet, give the size of the campus and the nature of university campus' it would be almost impossible. The only hope those kids had was escape, as some did when that brave professor held the door, or fight which they did not know how to do. And even then there would be loss of life, just not a large.


Here is where I disagree. My first reaction so seeing someone coming into a room with a gun is to get moving, away if there is an avenue of escape, and toward them if there is not. Here is something for you and others to think about. Pistols are not accurate, and especially so in the case of someone not well trained. Hitting a moving target is difficult and it is more difficult if someone is throwing something at you. But, what most do not understand is that the closer you come, the more the person with the gun has to move the gun to target you, and the more they more the less likely they are to hit you, coupled with the fact that once you have your hands on them, YOU have a chance. At best most people have any gun training are trained on stationary targets dead ahead of them.

Now, KiwiJ you might not appreciate this, but MM, and MEDC and LH will. This whole topic was the subject of a long discussion I had at lunch yesterday, which is why I could not post, I was consulting at a government institution, not military. However, my companions at lunch happened to be an Army Ranger, and exNavy Seal, and several of us who have been in the military. ALL agreed the problem was that the kids were defenseless. And since the Ranger has young kids we discussed what they might need to know, short of carrying a gun.

The consensus was pretty much what I have told you...MOVE and attack if you cannot escape. It is like snow skiing most peoples basic instincts is to lean into a hill on a steep slope, but what you should do is lean away from the hill to set your edges and control your skis.

I look at my kids and I realize that they have some ideas, but they never had the experiences I had growing up, training and being in the military, growing up in the military, the many fights I was in as a kid. They are young adults now but we are going to have a conversation in the next few weeks. All of the boys have had firearm training via summer camp with the Boy Scouts and I know the older one has been in a few fights <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> having played college football and such.

But, this does and should serve to do as many have stated, remind us that safety is in being prepared and even that is NOT SAFE.

KiwiJ, you should be thankful you live in the country you do. You all do have a much safer environment.

Must go and Jen thanks for starting this thread.

God Bless,

JL

JL is exactly right! Many will not train their kids on this stuff because they believe it will scar them...or they will live in fear. My kids are neither scarred nor fearful because of the training I have given them.

What many fear (scarring or scaring them) is onpar with saying that the flight attendants arent going to give the briefing at the beginning of the flight about what to do in an emergency because it will just frighten the passengers!

Instead, my kids are outfitted with the skills that will give them a fighting chance to come out of something like this alive. Guarantees? Nope! But the odds are a whole lot better if you escape, attack or shoot...than to sit behind a desk and wait for the executioner to come around!

I don't KNOW, for sure, what I would do in a moment of terror, such as that in Virginia, but I have been trained to fight, so I would think my natural instinct would be to ACT.

I don't own a weapon, but I do know how to use some. I also know how to fight, and disable people with my body, my tools. I hope to teach my son the same, and lead him in how and when to use these tools.

I still am bewildered at lining up for your own execution. I think of Flight 93, and people on board staging a coup WITHOUT weapons, they saved the lives of countless MANY.

This brings back memories of when people my age were in grade school, and had 2 practice the duck and cover routines in the event of a nuclear attack. Talk about ineffective!

But we did the exercises every week. We were also really afraid that something was going 2 happen - and it might have. Even though I was only 9 at the time, I remember the Cuban Missile Crisis and my folks somber looks when we'd ask what was going 2 happen.

I agree that if someone in that school had been armed and trained in handling a firearm, the death toll might have been greatly reduced. But that isn't what happened.

Still, it wouldn't be a big deal for this country's schools 2 add basic self-defense training 2 the required courses. Heck, when I was in college we still had 2 take Phys Ed until I was 21, I think. If kids up 2 that age were taught basic defense skills, that would be a better deterrent 2 a nutball going on a rampage than nothing at all. Maybe a helluva lot better. A chair on a ballistic trajectory 2 a gunman's head is something he'd have 2 deal with immediately. A bullet isn't going 2 stop it. Even some of the textbooks I had in college would be significant weapons in their own right.

But here we are, and what happened is what happened. I only hope that the fu2re focus is on things like self-defense training and less on things like second-guessing, hindsight, and restricting our liberties with more legislation. Can we outlaw nutjobs?

-ol' 2long

My advice to DS has been two-fold: First learn when to fight, then learn how to fight.

A not all that inappropriate comparison to knowing when to fight are these stupid affair situations we read about here. Some BS roll over or cower in fear. Some learn to fight back, for themselves and for their family.

DS knows firearms from Scouts and from our hunting trips. And rather useful is his enjoyment of paintballing. As JL notes, the closer you get and the more you move the less likely you will get hit. Even from a semiautomatic paintball marker. DS already knows how to attack while under fire.

One more thing – as in noted in my earlier post, DS is learning in Scouts about bravery and honor and not to be afraid to put himself in harms way for his friends and even for strangers. He’s making me proud already, and he’s a teenager.

With prayers,

When I was in college, on my own, I took a self defense course for situations like attempted rape or carjacking or a hold up type situation. The course also dealt with the law of said situations. The reason I took the course? I was going to school in the evenings some nights and knew of many rapes/attempted rapes and robberies of people walking across campus. I was proactive.

I was also in the military, so that helps, too, but for those who are not, basic self-defense is always good. Many people would sign their children up for CPR classes, why not teach them about saving a life with defenses.

When I was in the second grade we had one of those duck and covers. Linda whatwashername and I were so rattled when the alarm went off we dove under the same desk and knocked our heads together so hard we both received concussions.

We laughed about it all the way through high school.

Man...I loved the mental image of this!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


I wish we could. But if we outlawed nut jobs, where would Nancy Pelosi live? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

editted to say: I'm sorry for offending nut jobs by putting Nancy Pelosi in their ranks. I take back what I said.

Hooah, Aph! Thank God the Scouts still havent succumbed to the libs!

2L,

"Even some of the textbooks I had in college would be significant weapons in their own right."

Yeah, but I read this was a language class. Unless they were carrying War And Peace...

However I also read it was in the Engineering building. Now, Fundamentals of Gravitation, Elementary Quantum Electrodynamics, The CRC Handbook, or perhaps even the Steam Tables can do a lot of damage just falling off a shelf, not to mention at the terminus of a parabolic decent.

How about laptops? particularly some PCs I've seen...

-ol' 2long

2L and others,

Now you are getting the idea. It is a little late when something like this comes up for kids or even adults to think of what they could use or how they would use it. But, if one has already thought of these things before hand, then there are many things one could put into parabolic orbit and fast. It also doesn't hurt to have a clue how many rounds a typical pistol carries these days, and the number is 10 for the Glock, if memory serves me.

Oh, MM I will tell you that the guys that taught shot gun shooting as well as rifle and such at my son's Boy Scout troop were...Marines. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Sorry MM. However, they both went to National Jamboree in VA, and they did get a full dose of the Army. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Must go.

JL