Hello to all. Although I am registered as a new user, it is only because I actually forgot my original username from back in 2003.

At that time I was going through a terrible stretch with my W who was suddenly caught up in an obvious EA – and possible PA -- with a younger single OM at her work. The people on this forum were incredibly helpful and supportive over the months that I had to deal with a very tortuous situation. For instance I found out that she was alone with him for hours parked in a dark ravine, or emails that talked of him “pulling on her heartstrings.”

The situation back then was that she felt “trapped” in her current job and was looking for a new career in a creative field. As such, she discovered this young, brilliant, genius who was actually willing to work with her on a screenplay <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. Of course, he had never had so much as a story published, but she saw him as extremely gifted and felt very lucky for him allowing her to partner.

They spent months, supposedly working on this incredible screenplay. Many evenings she would be out with him, while I managed our 5 young kids at home. Any time I raised any concerns, she immediately laced into me for always blocking her growth and how she had always sacrificed for the family and it was finally her turn.

After months of this, it finally fizzled out. Yes, there was no screenplay and no real reason given for the failed partnership…other than the fact that OM became very difficult to work with. Her response to why there was so little to show for all the hours they spent together, was to deflect. However, our marriage had taken some severe damage and our intimacy levels were way down.

So what has happened in the intervening 4 years? Well, both my parents became quite ill and passed away one after the other. In dealing with all that, I lost sight of her ongoing friendship at work. Anyways, they were no longer getting together after work and the secret phone calls seemed to have stopped. So I felt safe.

But, about a month ago, she announces to me that she has just started to work on a new project with OM, who is still single and living alone (and now much closer). Both are unhappy at work and plan to quit soon and see this as a huge “opportunity.” Funny, after all the years of her complaining how he was impossible to work with, he suddenly has become her best chance at success again. Worse yet, she hasn’t even mentioned the many issues we confronted last time, much less asked if I’m ok with it.

And now the pattern has resumed, but even more intense than before. She now regularly spends hours with him “working” in undisclosed locations. She works so hard, that she won’t even answer her cellphone during those times. Her cellphone records (which she tries to hide from me) indicate that she spends hours each month on the phone with him (during those times when she isn’t actually with him)…and almost no one else. I could go on and on. I pointed out to her that she actually spends way more time with OM than all the other people in her life combined (including me and our kids!).

This time around, things are worse on many levels. Our own marriage has gotten even shakier as she hasn’t initiated relations in YEARS, where she used to have quite the drive. In fact, whenever I try, she will either stop me, or at most just lay still as though dead. She claims it is due to pre-menopause and stress.

Emotionally, she is constantly criticizing almost every aspect of me…fat, lazy, unkempt, etc. I guess I pale next to OM who is 20 years younger. Her former therapist had pushed her to end the “partnership” with the OM…so she dropped the therapist and has a new one who seems to accept it.

Okay, so I know that everyone at MB will scream at me to go immediately to Plan A. But here is where I have a terrible dilemma. First of all, I have no “hard evidence”. Even more importantly, the project this time actually got interest from a well placed industry professional, and there is a real possibility for it to take off. So, if I demand an end to her partnership…I’m essentially asking her to give up on this potential huge opportunity.

This is significant because she has been extremely unhappy with all other aspects of her life…hates living the suburban lifestyle and feeling “trapped” by family obligations. She never had the chance to pursue her dreams when younger to get into an exciting creative field…because, she always had to sacrifice for others (me). Now that she is getting older, she views this as her last and only shot.

If I try to kill it, she will see it as much worse than just me trying to get rid of OM and trying to save our marriage.

I don’t know what to do. I’m in a classic no-win situation. My stomach is in a knot each time she goes out now, but I feel helpless to stop it. I am a broken man.

spy.
spy.
spy.

Plant a recorder, hire a PI. Whatever it takes so you will know whether this working together is legit or not.

There are other ways for her to "pursue her dreams" if that's really what she's looking for - or does this pursuit ALWAYS involve working with OM?

There's your answer.
Mulan

Ask if you can help with her film. CAn you be involved in any way? Can you spy? can you get a
PI or a cell phone with a GPS that you can check where she is? Why can you start plan A? that is only about bettering you. That can never be bad.

Nobody learns to write screenplays by sitting in a parked car with a loser who's never published a damn thing.

You learn to write screenplays by buying yourself a big pile of books, studying them like crazy, taking classes and seminars, and most of all by WRITING SCREENPLAYS by the stack.

Your wife is just using this as a cover to go out and date a loser who is only using her.

You could help her pursue her dream of being a screenwriter, if that's really her dream.

But you can't help her pursue her "dream" of dating cheap loser men. Sorry.

Maybe you should ask her what her "dream" really is.
Mulan

I only have a few minutes to respond right now. Thanks all for taking the time to read my long-winded tale of woe.

It's interesting that Mulan picked up on that "loser" label for the OM. While my W views him as some kind of amazing genius wunderkid, everyone else I've spoken to justs sees him as weird and nerdy. How else do you explain a mid-30s guy who has never been in a relationship, doesn't own a car (W drives him everywhere!) and lives in a small apartment in a rundown street? He's quitting his day job and going back to college.

What's worse is that this latest project was totally my Ws idea and she made the connection to the industry contact. I asked why she even needs OM at this point...and she insists he adds so much because of his brilliance and articulation at meetings. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Anyways, I need to work on some spy techniques, because I think she just found out I have access to her email account. Any tips would be appreciated.

I will respond more fully later. Thanks again all.

Nowin,

Please read the 5th line down on my signature

Hi Nowin

I am relatively new here, and am still working on my issues. But I feel like I can speak to, and hopefully give you some insight on, what your W may be dealing with.

I think you need to help your W untangle the two issues she is having. I can totally understand how she’s feeling about having given up here dreams in order to be there for you and your kids. That is a big issue, and should not be downplayed, which you don’t seem to be doing:

“What's worse is that this latest project was totally my Ws idea and she made the connection to the industry contact. I asked why she even needs OM at this point...and she insists he adds so much because of his brilliance and articulation at meetings. .”

I highlighted the one section because I think that your wife is probably not feeling like she is capable of doing this by herself. After years of being at home with the kids, it’s hard to feel that you can relate to other adults in a professional manner, and be taken seriously.

What you can do right now is let her know how much you believe in her that she can do this on her own.

I’m not saying you should discount the OM issue as unimportant. I agree (and I’ve been in your W’s shoes) that you should expose the “working relationship” for what it is. What I’m trying to say to you – especially since you point out that this guy doesn’t seem to have any other redeeming value – is that he may be providing to her the support that maybe she feels like she’s not getting from you. He doesn't see her, or relate to her, as a mom, but as a grown up woman who is capable of accomplishing this . If you do that for her, she won’t need him anymore. I hear that you have faith in her to be able to do this on her own, but does she? Or is she only hearing from you – in relation to this project – that you are concerned about this inappropriate behavior?

As I said, your concern about a possible A is VALID. But, you need to be able to separate the issue from what your wife seems to be trying to accomplish with this project, and give her unconditional support on THAT. YOU be the one to help her take the steps into this scary new situation (this career, that she always wanted, and therefore is so important to her that she succeed), and it will create a whole new dynamic in your M, because you will be relating to each other as adults, not parents.

Hope that makes sense, and helps a little.

From "Phenomenon": Have you ever bought her chairs?

This is just a resumed affair. I don't know why we even need to decipher her comments about him, she is having an affair and is certainly not going to come home and announce it. No, she will call it "business contact" like she did before.

This is exactly what Dr. Harley warns against when he ADAMANTLY warns that no contact for life must take place. This doesn't call for Plan A, this calls for Plan B. It is happening again because there were no consequences and nothing done in response to the first go around of this affair.

Dr. Harley:

"The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. "

p.s. you are right, Plan A will not help.

Wow, 2 more very thoughtful, yet somewhat contradictory responses. Hrdhdwoman, I'm glad you gave the input from her viewpoint. I try to see that way as well. I would so much like to believe that it is all truly innocent and only a working relationship as she claims.

However, I should point out that she has not been a stay at home mom for years. In fact she has been out working...just not in a profession that she enjoys.

Also, I have tried to be as encouraging as possible in this new venture ... sharing the excitement whenever she scores a success. Of course it would be a lot easier if OM wasn't in the picture.

But whenever I even raise the idea that she doesn't need him, she instantly goes on a binge about how incredible he is and how she is certain it wouldn't have gotten to where it is without him. (Of course, a couple hours later after one of her many calls with him, she will be weeping or depressed about how he is totally off base, screwed up and going in the wrong direction).

Final point: I have not raised the "inappropriate behavior" issue yet this time around. I am one dumb sucker, as it only hit me yesterday...and then I began some snooping and was sickened to find some evidence such as cellphone records and stray emails dating back the last few months. So I just started asking some "innocent" questions based on serious inconsistencies in her statements and actions. This has only served to irritate her and cause her to withdraw further and attack more.

MelodyLane...you don't pull your punches. I guess you can count me as just another one of those naive types who really believed that once the first go round ended...it was finished forever. Heck, she used to tell me how stupid and used she felt by working with someone as screwed up as him.

When she started working on her new project, I never would have thought that OM would reappear like a bad dream. And, like I said, this time she didn't even raise any of the issues we went through last time. She just told me he was the best person for her to partner with, and that was it...no discussion.

Your are so right: having not really established (to her anyways) that she was in an A last time around...that just ended on its own, here we are again. And now, I have no "proof" that she is entered into another round of an A.

If I confront her with my suspicions or even talk about my discomfort, she will go ballistic and rant about how once again I am just destroying the only thing in her life that has any meaning or promise. She would claim that nothing ever happened or will happen..it is purely a working relationship.

Meanwhile, she is planning to spend most of tomorrow with him and I am feeling so sick to my gut about it.

nowin,

I remember you when you posted before. How old are your children? This is very important. Why? I think plan A will not work. I am thinking plan B might be more appropriate especially given that you have done this dance before. She never really came back, and you have plan A'd here. Hardwoman, may be right, but I somehow doubt it.

I also think you need to examine why you are remaining with your W, beyond the "I love her" response. I also agree with acquiring more data if you can get it. A key logger would help as would be a voice recorder in her car.

Get the data, but really consider the value of this woman in your life.

God Bless,

JL

Nowin,

This isn't the time to plan A. You should have BTDT already, right?

Time to reverse babble and plan B.

Is your support group in place? Finances secured? Identified your personal and M boundaries?

Mind and heart in sync?

Example of RB:

Ws: I need time to explore my new project. I need the space, time and $$ to support my 'new project'. I don't need you and the children stifling my create inspiration.

BS: You must be losing your touch. You had all that space and time the last time and look what you have to show for it. Even with all that loss, you still choose t/b with someone who wasted your time on the last project? How successful is he anyway? How come you can't find a real partner to collaborate with? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Ws: Well he will make it big this time.

BS: So you fell for that line of bs, eh? I thought you were smarter than that. Sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Then walk away. You want to plant seeds of doubt that will rip tears into the A.

It is within your power t/d so. Just be smart about when and how.

L.

"I try to see that way as well. I would so much like to believe that it is all truly innocent and only a working relationship as she claims."

Just to clarify: I do not think this is just a working relationship . I think you are correct in your assumptions. I think you need to identify what this man is bringing to the table for her - in my POV, hand-holding (in the figurative sense) and encouragement in this project, that she is equating with her becoming a different, more successful person that she can be proud of (herself, that is, not the A!).

I get that she has been working all along, but did she feel like she was just doing what she had to do to support the family? Like she was just "settling" for this job, bc she didn't have the opportunity to go for what she really wanted? That's hard on the psyche and on self-confidence/self-perception. You look at yourself as if you just gave up, or didn't have "what it takes".

Given the emotional/psychological stake that she has in being able to see this project through, what I was trying to get at was finding a way to support her in that, while getting her to recognize that she doesn't need this other guy. She can do it on her own, with you there rooting for her!

nowin, please listen to JustLearning, he is exactly right.

I would suggest that you focus on doing the right thing, instead of her REACTIONS. Her reactions, ie: "irritation," "goes ballistic" when faced with unpleasant consequences should not be the guiding force in your plan. That is like handing the steering wheel over to a falling down drunk.

Any addict who is engaged in wrongdoing will be quite irritated when you interfere with their destructive behavior. That is a natural consequence, not an indicator that interference is wrong. Your goal should be to save your marriage, not avoid making her mad at all costs. Plan B is very much in order, nowin.

I think that HHW, JL, ML and Orchid are all right.

Nowin has previously done Plan A with moderate success, bc his W somewhat came back to the M. but as JL points out, Nowin’s W never truly came back.

ML and Orchid are advising an immediate Plan B.

HHW pointed that it is very likely that Nowin’s W is involved in a serial affair with the same loser from before. But she also pointed out that Nowin’s W may have brought the loser back into the picture bc she lacks self-confidence to follow through on her dream career.

IF Nowin decides that he wants to try to get his wife back, given the fact she is a serial WS, and given the fact the WW has her dream career opportunity, shouldn’t Nowin go to a one-day Plan A? A one-day Plan A where he offers total support to his WW in her dream career opportunity, IF she eliminates the OM from the project and ceases all contact? A one-time opportunity for Nowin’s wife to maintain her integrity and pursue her career opportunities, while maintaining the support of Nowin and her family? If she is in an active affair, then she will blow-off or reject Nowin’s conditional offer of support anyway, and then Nowin can go to an immediate and dark Plan B…full of all of the consequences the WS brought on herself.

BUT, if HHW’s alternative possibility is correct and Nowin’s W is using the loser as a crutch for her lack of self-confidence, then an offer of support and confidence from Nowin could be all that they need propel their M forward that much faster. In this scenario, an immediate Plan B could force Nowin’s WW to come back to the M when she has to face the consequences of her decision, but I think she would forever resent Nowin for ruining her dream career opportunity…that’s no way to re-build a M.

I am suggesting that Nowin prepare for Plan B, while extending the offer of support. NOT as an ultimatum...just an offer to her, without Nowin communicating his personal time-table for her acceptance. Nowin could have previously determined the time frame; one-day, three-days, etc. Prepare for Plan B. If WW doesn’t accept the offer, and eliminate the OM from her life, then a dark Plan B with all of the consequences. Then, isn't he at the same point as an immediate Plan B, without losing much time, while at least demonstrating his support and confidence in his W?

Nowhere was it advised that Nowin determine his plans based upon his WW’s possible reactions. He needs to determine his plan of action based upon what he feels is right and good for his family.

Just my thoughts.

LoBoy

Nowin should ask his wife to completely and totally end all contact with her lover, even if it means quitting her "career." He should not support anything that is destructive to his marriage. Then if she doesn't [and she won't] he should get a legal seperation and go into Plan B.

First off, I want to again thank all the wonderful members on MB Forums that continue to provide great suggestions and encouragement during this most trying period for me.

I have not been able to get online for the weekend as a number of events have transpired that I wanted to update now. Going back to Thursday night when I checked her personal laptop and found nothing suspicious (except she did erase the background photo of our kids). But as I was returning it to the fancy bag I had bought her for it, I felt something in a side pocket. It turned out to be a photo of OM. And this from a mother who doesn’t carry a picture of her 5 kids, never mind her H. I was crushed.

But, I still had no solid evidence of anything. Friday morning she went into a viscious rant in which she made statements like “our 24 years of marriage have been a complete waste for me, I have nothing to show for it.” Fridays are her day off work when she works on her project. She tells me that she does this at a downtown coffee shop or library.

I happened to get off work early this particular Friday, so I decided to do some snooping. I tracked down OMs address and staked out the apartment building. I tried finding her (our) car parked on the streets, but wasn’t able to. So I wasn’t sure she was even there. But I called his place from a payphone nearby and he answered. Then, I tried her cellphone, and it was turned off. Maybe she was really at a coffee shop? I decided to just hang around for the next couple hours anyways on a hunch.

I must have missed her leaving, because a couple hours later my cellphone rings and she is demanding to know where I am parked right now. She has spotted my (our) van on the street and is outraged, wanting to know what is going on. Yes, she actually asks me what is going on! Then she tells me she is too shocked to talk and hangs up.

Later, when I caught up to her at home we had a huge confrontation. Her primary concern was the extent of my spying on her. She claims that it was highly unusual that she spent the afternoon at his place.

She of course still claims, that nothing is going on between them. Her (odd) reasoning? Because "he is so much younger" than her (she said at the time 20 years, but it is in fact 10 years). Also, she claims he isn’t that good-looking (of course she hates that I have put on pounds and my hair has grayed over the years). When she asks if I even know what he looks like, I tell her yes, because of the photo I found.

That catches her off guard. First she responded that he had given it to her for no apparent reason, and she was jut going to throw it out, but didn’t want to look rude! But, when I countered about not having any pics of her kids or me, she started scrambling. She actually came up with the excuse I was expecting…it was for “publicity” purposes. Yes, I just knew that suddenly she was in charge of their previously unknown joint publicity campaign and although she had no photo of herself (probably gave one to him), she did carry one around of him. (Too bad that it took her a couple minutes to come up with this line.)


There are many details I could go into about our discussions that night and her actions. Suffice it to say that she became very conciliatory and gave me the first unsolicited affection in months. Sadly, it left me feeling more empty than satisfied. More like it was coming just to provide cover than any true sense of love.

Over the weekend, she would occassionally look off and say that she would give up the project if it meant saving our marriage. However, she remains adamant that NOTHING had happened between them and that by giving up the project, she was giving up her last chance in life to do something truly meaningful. And that was the pattern of our entire marriage...her always sacrificing for me (grad school, moving cities, etc.)and nothing for her.

So basically, I am caught back in the same horrible dilemma. Worse, I don’t have any hard evidence at this point. And now that I’ve “blown” my cover, it will make any further snooping very difficult. She has already taken steps to cover any tracks…for the first time putting a secret password on her email, and keeping her cellphone next to her bed at night.

The clear message she is giving me is that if I ask her to give up the project (she has a signed agreement with OMs name on it too, so she can’t just kick him off anymore), it will completely destroy her. She hates her current job, and without this one big potential break, she will “just accept her fate and live out the rest of her years” until she can escape (the kids move out -- aged 9 to 19 now).

I am scared that our M would never recover from this. OTOH, my suspicions about the OM are ripping me apart. Maybe I need a Plan C.

Smoke dude...this is pure smoke.

Take her up on her offer. Get her to drop the project, and drop OM completely. Tell her that you'll do whatever you can to help her work out a REAL solution...one that doesn't place your marriage at risk.

She'll probably go ballistic on you...but tell her that you're only taking her up on HER OFFER. You DO see this as your best chance for your marriage...and while you know that she'll be upset about making the choice, you know that you'll both be able to work out a chance for her to make a better career change that is a better situation overall.

nowin - your wife has got you over a barrel and entirely helpless, which is exactly what she wants. And let me say she has done an EXTREMELY good job of putting you there and keeping you there.

First: Forget "suspicions". She IS having an affair with this OM. She's actually got you believing that it's some kind of "work project." Bullcrap. She is hiding her email from you, refuses to be honest and open about ANYTHING she is doing with him, ignores you, and keeps a picture of him in her laptop bag. They ARE dating and they ARE having sex and the sooner you accept this as fact the sooner you will be able to start dealing with it.

Second: She's actualy got you believing she can't live without this "project" and that the only way she can "live her dream" is if she can pursue this "project" with the OM.

Again, nowin, if her dream was REALLY to write screenplays there are many other ways for her to do this and NOT ONE OF THEM involves dating another man. It's clear to me that her "dream" is not to write screenplays but to be able to have a husband sit home and wait for her while she enjoys dating other men, because THAT is what she is actually doing.

Have you ever seen anything she's written? How many scripts has she worked on, much less finished?


Oh, come on, nowin - rip up that ridiculous "signed agreement" right now and throw it in the trash. If she really wants to be a writer, any professional (and I am one) will tell her that she is being SCAMMED. Is she giving this guy any money?? It wouldn't surprise me one bit.

Losing this "project" will not destroy her. Screwing another man is going to cost her her family and everything else important in her life. How long are you going to just stand there and believe this utter bullcrap and watch her destroy your family???


SCAM
SCAM
SCAM

DID YOU HEAR WHAT I SAID?

THIS IS A SCAM

Oh, for gods' sake - if she really wants to be a professional writer, she cannot possibly believe this is how it's done. This is complete and utter garbage, nowin. This is the equivalent of the casting couch. Either your wife really is so stupid as to believe that this is how a screenwriter gets a big break in Hollywood - by dating and screwing a guy who SAYS he's a screenwriter but has sold ABSOLUTELY NOTHING - or else these two are laughing their butts off at YOU every day for believing such a ridiculous story while they enjoy going out on dates and having sex.


She's actually trying to make you feel guilty for busting up her affair. And it sure is working, isn't it? YOU feel guilty and YOU are terrified she'll leave and YOU are scared to death that she might get mad at you - and your wife and her loser boyfriend are free to enjoy themselves without your interference, which was their goal all along - NOT "writing screenplays".


No, you've got it 100% backwards. Your marriage will never recover from your wife dating and having sex with another man. It will never recover from you cowering down in fear and sitting quietly in the corner while your wife screws another man because you're afraid she might be mad if you try to stop her.

nowin, what are you thinking??????

On the other hand:
Your marriage WILL recover from her anger, if you will man up long enough to stop letting your wife and her boyfriend scare you.

You can either face up to what your wife is doing and stop being afraid of her anger, or you can just go on stepping aside and taking care of the kids so she can screw her boyfriend in peace.

Which one do you think is going to save your marriage?
Mulan